Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Lummel]

Tyrion X ASOS

Overview

Well this chapter has a simple pattern. Breakfast, trial, singing night, breakfast, trial.

The first breakfast is a greasy sausage that Tyrion stabs at listlessly, the second hearty and cheery. The first trial goes badly with the public spectacle of Shae's evidence and ends with the hope of Tyrion's throw of the dice as per the Vale (note Oberyn as Ragnorak mentioned questions both Shae and Tyrion). The second trial goes well, actually better and better until the very end, which has to be one of the more unpleasant deaths in ASOIAF. Then Tyrion is escorted to the Black Cells. All hope gone. He's bet against his family and lost.

Observations

• “Tyrion summoned all the dignity he could find and waddled down the steps. He could feel them all watching him as he crossed the yard; the guards on the walls, the grooms by the stables, the scullions and washerwomen and serving girls.”
  
• “'They plotted it together,' she said, this girl he'd loved” - I think this is his most explicit use of the “L” word in relation to Shae
  
• “You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be”
  
• "A pity he'd had Symon Silver Tongue killed before learning all the words of that song. It wasn't a bad song, if truth be told. Especially compared to the ones that would be wrtten about him henceforth", yes first teach me the song, then I stew you! Callousness asside, a nice reflection on historical memory. I'm surprised we don't have a character yet with their own personal singer to record their great deeds for prosterity.
  

Analysis

Fathers and sons

“Even the Red Viper chortled, and Mace Tyrell looked like to bust a gut, but Lord Tywin Lannister sat between them as if made of stone, his fingers steepled beneath his chin.”

So I've been talking about Tywin as earthy and heavenly father to Tyrion, or really Tywin's word and will having something like divine power over Tyrion. I thought Tywin sitting in judgement here looking like a statue really summed this up. Although what we see in the two trials is a movement from judgement from the earthly father to judgement from the Heavenly Father (as represented by Gregor Clegane which is a bit grim). Tyrion is condemned in both cases, but it is the earthly Father who held out the (relative) mercy of life on the Wall.

“Tyrion had to skip and run to keep up with Prince Oberyn's long strides”

“Cersei seemed half a child herself beside Ser Gregor”

This emphasised the child like nature of Tyrion and Cersei, er not that they like to play and skip, but that they are psychologically still in a child like family dynamic, competing for their father's love. The rapid transition to adulthood turns out to be difficult for both Cersei in AFFC and Tyrion in ADWD.

Tyrion taking up Oberyn's offer is his biggest rebellion against his family so far. Up until that moment Tywin had been in control. When Oberyn is shouting out about Elia of Dorne is he is putting the behaviour of Lord Tywin's servants on trial too along side the question of Tyrion. Far from being the aloof untouchable father Tywin is reduced to an object of public criticism – just as his son has been during the trial.

Is this the time to discuss Tyrion guilty of being a dwarf? Is this really about father son rivalry? Certainly Tywin is prepared to accept Tyrion as collateral damage in establishing a Tommen monarchy. Surely he could have squashed Cersei's allegation if he had wanted to?

There is a tide in the affairs of men...

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads.

Since we've been talking about family dynamics I thought this exchange between Tyrion and Oberyn was interesting. Also relevance to the Tyrion marriage question. In Oberyn's tale Tyrion is being offered by Tywin as a second best alternative to Jaime (the eldest son and heir) while making it clear that only Rhaegar Targaryen is good enough for his daughter. If this was Tywin's attitude it is no surprise that he couldn't marry Tyrion off, I imagine Lords took great pleasure in declining Tywin offer.

The other side of this comes in AFFC when we see that Tywin himself is dancing on Tytos' strings and in response to the weakness of House Lannister in his time, the poor marriages and being laughed at. Being watched, scrutinised and laughed at is a reoccurring theme of this chapter and must be particularly galling to father and son.

As an aside to the strong tide I thought how in the Baelor Breakwind story it was notable how Tyrion shifts the responsibility for that lost marriage and the neverborn children from Oberyn's joke to Baelor's fart. But it is the witticism, not the wind (unless it was particularly foul and pungent) that caused the problem here. Without Oberyn's intervention it would have been just embarrassing and awkward. With his joke he frames the man as nothing but a farter and who wants a windbag for a spouse? It's the inversion of the trick that Willas performs by naming Garlan “the Gallant”. If he had been called Garlan the Grotesque every reader would believe him guilty of involvement in the murder of Joffrey ;)

“The rightful heir to Casterly Rock”

ASOS begins with Tywin denying Tyrion his right to Casterly Rock and closes with somebody else offering it to him. What ever Tywin says, Tyrion is still the son who is not in the Kingsguard. By possessing the rightful heir to Casterly Rock Dorne can divide House Lannister, or even eventually count on its power in gaining revenge for Elia of Dorne. I should point out here that I suspect that Doran's 'friends at court' are directly or indirectly Varys feeding him information and that it is no surprise that both Varys and Doran have ear marked Tyrion as a potential ally. Again there is a pawn to player degree of wilful blindness on Tyrion's part all the way through ASOAIF to this point. He also has been a potential heir, but never sought to use that as a lever to win friends and influence people. Until now he has been prepared to accept what Tywin gave him, but breaking away, asserting himself as an adult, is not easy as we shall see.

ETA oh and I just realised that didn't mention Shae's performance at the trial which so moved Oberyn. Maybe one or two of you might have some thoughts about it? Also this was my last chapter post for ASOS because ADWD is coming!

ETA II And I apologise for the posting delays. I have just checked my spreadsheet and we are now posting a new chapter once every 3.8 days instead of our earlier average of once every 3.4 days delaying your Tyrion hit :(

While we had quite a bit of discussion following from the Purple Wedding so far Tyrion II ACOK has inspired the most posts. Yes, Janos Slynt's last supper got our fingers typing more than Joffrey's!

[1234567]

Excellent write up Lummel.

Shae's evidence was the most curious as she basically is admitting to knowing about a plot to kill the King and did nothing about it. I'm surprised this is not picked up by Tyrion or one of the judges. Also Tyrion's first thoughts are that he betrayed Shae by not keeping her safe, but then thinks "Shae knows nothing that can hurt me". Of course it is her testimony that hurts him most.

There is a very Biblical feel to Tywin proclaiming "I wash my hands of it".

Also Shae is the only witness to implicate Sansa.

[A wilding]

+1 Lummel.

Shae's evidence was the most curious as she basically is admitting to knowing about a plot to kill the King and did nothing about it.

Which makes me wonder exactly how many people in the room actually believed Shae. She is, after all a common whore, I am sure no one took seriously her story of having been betrothed to a gently born young squire.

Certainly the Red Viper did not believe a word, his questions may have been to mock her testimony, or just amused prurience. Either way he hit the jackpot in terms of pushing Shae into angering Tyrion sufficiently to take that final step of rebellion against his father.

And as Lummel said, it is really noticeable how that frees Tyrion from his paralysis and turns him back into himself again.

[greensleeves]

Awesome writeup Lummel.

The first breakfast is a greasy sausage that Tyrion stabs at listlessly, the second hearty and cheery. The first trial goes badly with the public spectacle of Shae's evidence and ends with the hope of Tyrion's throw of the dice as per the Vale (note Oberyn as Ragnorak mentioned questions both Shae and Tyrion). The second trial goes well, actually better and better until the very end, which has to be one of the more unpleasant deaths in ASOIAF. Then Tyrion is escorted to the Black Cells. All hope gone. He's bet against his family and lost.

When Oberyn loses the second trial Tyrion loses his cheery second breakfast as well.

Tyrion taking up Oberyn's offer is his biggest rebellion against his family so far. Up until that moment Tywin had been in control. When Oberyn is shouting out about Elia of Dorne is he is putting the behaviour of Lord Tywin's servants on trial too along side the question of Tyrion. Far from being the aloof untouchable father Tywin is reduced to an object of public criticism – just as his son has been during the trial.

I noticed that when Tyrion asks for a trial by battle, Tywin is immediately visibly upset:

"Lord Tywin’s face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he’d drunk some poisoned wine as well."

(Also... moment of foreshadowing?)

This happens before Oberyn declares for Tyrion, but after Cersei declares that Gregor will be her champion. When I first read the chapter I didn't really understand his upset. However, as you said this represents a big rebellion by Tyrion. It may also represent a big rebellion by Cersei; Gregor Clegane is supposed to be a sacrifice for Dorne. You pointed out the similarities in their childishness... They may be finally rebelling together as well.

I found it surprising that Tyrion still mourns the potential loss of his unhappy marriage at the beginning of the chapter. At this point Tyrion thinks she framed him for regicide. I similarly found it surprising that Oberyn seemingly thinks Tyrion has access to Sansa.

...

These were some great insights. Perhaps legal protection was part of Shae's deal? Maybe she's been so objectified that she no longer holds legal culpability? It is curious that no questioned it.

I wonder if part of the lack of testimony against Sansa could have come from a reluctance to shed any light on the relationship between her and Joffrey. The testimony against, Tyrion, after all started with truths and then gradually led to lies.

A few other notes from this chapter:

Tyrion thinking that trusting his father "was the part that tied his bowels in knots."

The weather plays both a symbolic and practical role in the Oberyn-Gregor fight. Tyrion notes that he doesn't know whether grey skies or the sun will prevail before the fight, the sun aids in what momentarily seems like a victory for Oberyn, and then at the end of the fight we have "smoke in the cold dawn air".

[Lummel]

...it is really noticeable how that frees Tyrion from his paralysis and turns him back into himself again.

Well this is a an interesting point that came up in another reread and ties up with this whole question of identies because implicitly you've got this idea in your head of there being a 'himself' that Tyrion can go back to. Things may happen that push him off course but there is, somewhere a true or real Tyrion that he can return to. I'm sorry to be picking on one word, maybe one that you didn't mean anything serious by, I just find this interesting as a way to think about what Tyrion is.

I don't know - what are your opinions - do you think there is a real/true Tyrion or maybe you have an ideal Tyrion - perhaps you liked him best when he lead the sortie or was particularly witty and would prefer to see Tyrion like that more often?

Doing a reread like this all of us together, and in particular co-hosting a reread, is a different experience to reading, or even rereading certain POVs on my own. I have to express my thoughts explicitly rather than just let them float about in my head. This time the Tyrion in the shadow of Tywin and Tyrion the manipulated have come through very strongly, as you've probably guessed if you've read a couple of my posts :laugh: , but philosophically I feel that these Tyrions are as much himself / real /true as Tyrion elsewhere :dunno: .

On the subject of Shae's evidence I do like the Shae/Oberyn exchange:

"... He made me do such shameful things..."

Prince Oberyn looked curious. "What sorts of things?"

"Unspeakable things."

@Greensleeves, yes I am working on a Tyrion vomiting emoticon, something like this :-(==== to express the situation graphically.

Cersei had already picked Gregor as her champion in the previous chapter - Kevan told Tyrion that and Tyrion even discussed with Bronn the exciting opportunities that could be his if he became Tyrion's champion and took on Gregor. I suppose there is an element of rebellion there because Cersei is using Tywin's dog. On the other hand I suppose Tywin never thought that anyone would be stupid or motivated enough to take on Gregor in a stand up one on one fight...

That quote about trusting his father is good. Does he fear that Daddy Lannister will be unable to prevent a tragic accident occurring on the way to the Wall or is it just submitting to his judgement that is so frightening?

[Ragnorak]

Very Nice, Lummel.

I especially like that Father above and below take especially with the Tyrion and Cersei children imagery.

Your Garlan observations actually make a nice juxtaposition. Tyrion claims to be on trial for being a dwarf and we put Garlan on trial for being "Gallant." Both had a "grotesque" feature that they were mocked for as children and both had older brothers to protect them. Garlan wore someone else's armor in battle, participated in a mummer's show or two of political theater, wasn't singled out as an oaf by his grandmother, took the reward of a high lord's seat ahead of Tarly, and said nice words to Tyrion and Sansa. It is the nature of Martin's writing that requires putting together such small clues but still the judgment here of Tyrion compared to ours of Garlan is an interesting contrast. It isn't just that Tyrion shifts the blame from the jest to the fart. What struck me was he shifts the blame from his father who was responsible for the murdering that made the fart tragic in the first place.

I found Tywin's steepled finger pose most interesting.

“Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Spare me these coy reproaches, Tyrion. I visited your sickbed as often as Maester Ballabar would allow it, when you seemed like to die.” He steepled his fingers under his chin. “Why did you dismiss Ballabar?”

Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. “Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark’s grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?”

Or so it seemed. Even the Red Viper chortled, and Mace Tyrell looked like to bust a gut, but Lord Tywin Lannister sat between them as if made of stone, his fingers steepled beneath his chin.

The first is his plotting the Red Wedding and his question about dismissing Ballabar which is another Tyrion/Cersei conflict. The second is him promising Tyrion the North while convincing him to marry Sansa when he knows it has already been given to Roose. For Tywin this is a gesture of plotting and manipulation. The other character that uses a steepled finger gesture is Littlefinger. He uses the gesture when Tyrion makes his Myrcella/Sweetrobin fake offer (which ironically triggers the Dontos/Sansa meeting that was so helpful in damning him here) and again when he suggests the Patchface as Shireen's father lie.

We know from the Jaime chapter that Tywin wants an Oberyn/Cersei marriage to remove Cersei from future influence on Tommen and it also seems to be his way of making up for the deficiency of not delivering Gregor's head. There is also the added knife twist of making the marriage offer that he so insultingly declined all those years ago. Tyrion is completely ruining Tywin's plans here. If Gregor kills Oberyn the Dornish justice issue becomes an even bigger pickle. If Oberyn wins there is no way Cersei will marry him and he loses Gregor's insulation between himself and Dornish justice. There is also the issue of Tyrell justice that complicates things even more. Tywin turns purple and slams his fist on the table which is the worst loss of composure he's had to date. He handled Jaime losing an army and getting captured far better than this.

We don't have any lawyers in Westeros but among nobles the family acts as the "legal advocate" if only to provide the threat of war if anything "improper" happens at trial. We know Oberyn is going to vote for Tyrion and Mace is going to vote the other way. Tywin is the deciding vote. He is only in danger of conviction because Tywin is making it so. Oberyn's question to the KG about why Tyrion still has limbs could easily have been seized on. "If that is the whole truth of it take this oathbreaker to the black cells to await execution" would certainly have prompted a more honest account of the days events. Tywin sent Tyrion to KL with a setup to battle Cersei. Tyrion's "attacks" on Joffrey are the only lessons in good ruling the little snot has ever gotten-- lessons Tywin would very much approve of and explicitly ordered. "Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all... If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must." For all the fault I can find with Tyrion's willful blindness and passivity throughout this book, this trial and its tone are still all Tywin's doing. Tyrion gave him the Dornish and Tyrell alliances that sit to his left and right at this trial. One would think he earned at least some of the protection "leal service" provides that Tywin shows to Gregor.

I like Rapsie's Biblical reference to "I was my hands of it." There is also the "clean hands" theme that runs through the book. LF mentions it explicitly to Sansa. Tywin puts the blood on Walder Frey's hands for the Red Wedding and on Lorch and Gregor for Elia's children. This really stands out compared to Ned who literally gets blood on his own hands by doing his own killing both in battle and in justice. We also have Aemon's speech to Jon about staying or leaving the NW where Jon has blood on his hand up to his wrist. Martin seems to have a theme related to owning the blood on your hands that I read as a rather positive thing. Tywin's hands are all over this trial and everything that led up to it but it is one thing this possession centric man doesn't want to own.

[Winterfellian]

Nice Lummel!

“'They plotted it together,' she said, this girl he'd loved” - I think this is his most explicit use of the “L” word in relation to Shae

Actually Tyrion connected Shae with the L word all the way back to ACOK:

"This is no dream," he promised her (SHAE). It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloodygame, and me in the center of it . . . me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scornedand laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it . . .And her. And her.

About Shae's testimony, I think she's not just a resource the author is using to makes us sympathize more with Tyrion but her presence reveals more about her and Cersei's natures that it does of Tyrion himself. She was conveniently left out for last, after all the "credible" witnesses have made their allegations. Shae's purpose wasn't to incriminate Tyrion. I think that if Cersei really believed that Shae had knowledge of what was going to happen to Joffrey and remained silent she would have seen that she didn't live to see another day. Shae's purpose was merely to humiliate Tyrion, to bring out his deficiencies as a whole man for all the court to mock.

I noticed it is her testimony which prompts Tyrion to said the following:

“Nothing of the sort,” said Tyrion. “Of Joffrey’s death I am innocent. I am guilty of a more monstrous crime.” He took a step toward his father. “I was born. I lived. I am guilty of being a dwarf, I confess it. And no matter how many times my good father forgave me, I have persisted in my infamy.”

“This is folly, Tyrion,” declared Lord Tywin. “Speak to the matter at hand. You are not on trial for being a dwarf.”

“That is where you err, my lord. I have been on trial for being a dwarf my entire life.”

This little speech is very interesting. I think it will be easy to dismiss it as Tyrion blaming his problems on his dwarfism, as he is wont to do in other occasions, but there's more to it than that. Despite Tywin's assurances that Tyrion isn't being on trial on account for being a dwarf, Shae's testimony defies this notion. Her whole testimony is so overly ridiculous and it is only heightened by her exchange with Oberyn. The imagery of the whole court laughing at Tyrion asking his whore to calll him Giant of Lannister is a very powerful one. I feel this is a case where Tyrion is entitled, for lack if a better word, to feel the world is out to get him for him being a dwarf. Will people have been less willing to find him guilty if he was as comely as Ser Loras instead as a monkey demon? Or would his actions at the Blackwater had gone forgotten if he had been as physically attractive as Jaime in his prime? Unfortunately, Tyrion's dwarfism does play a part in this trial.

It's the inversion of the trick that Willas performs by naming Garlan “the Gallant”. If he had been called Garlan the Grotesque every reader would believe him guilty of involvement in the murder of Joffrey ;)

LOL You don't give up, do you? :P

[A wilding]

Well this is a an interesting point that came up in another reread and ties up with this whole question of identities because implicitly you've got this idea in your head of there being a 'himself' that Tyrion can go back to. Things may happen that push him off course but there is, somewhere a true or real Tyrion that he can return to. I'm sorry to be picking on one word, maybe one that you didn't mean anything serious by, I just find this interesting as a way to think about what Tyrion is.

I don't know - what are your opinions - do you think there is a real/true Tyrion or maybe you have an ideal Tyrion - perhaps you liked him best when he lead the sortie or was particularly witty and would prefer to see Tyrion like that more often?

Basically yes, a neat bit of psychoanalysis on your part. I don't like to see people living in the shadow of an oppressive parent. I concede intellectually that they may be as much them as the person they might become if they broke free, but I know which seems more 'right' to me.

[1234567]

Excellent Lummel.

Just to add in the Arya Re-read we have just seen Arya kill the guard at Harrenhal and when looking at the blood on her hands thinks how the rain will wash then clean.

[greensleeves]

Cersei had already picked Gregor as her champion in the previous chapter - Kevan told Tyrion that and Tyrion even discussed with Bronn the exciting opportunities that could be his if he became Tyrion's champion and took on Gregor. I suppose there is an element of rebellion there because Cersei is using Tywin's dog. On the other hand I suppose Tywin never thought that anyone would be stupid or motivated enough to take on Gregor in a stand up one on one fight...

Your observation about Cersei and Tyrion in this chapter really got me thinking about just how much Cersei and Tyrion have in common. Yes, we knew before this that Cersei had picked Gregor, but I can't help thinking Tywin would have seen how horrible Gregor fighting for her would have been wrt Dorne. We know that it was Cersei, specifically, that sent for Gregor because Polliver tells Sandor and Arya that the queen sent for Gregor. Kevan's phrasing when he says "Cersei means to have Gregor" makes it seem like she was facing opposition. In my head I can imagine Tywin trying to talk Cersei out of it during the trial and her declaration there being the final, permanent 'no'. This is all very head-cannony however.

Edit: I meant to mention this earlier, but I think it's notable that a murder is committed *during* the murder trial and no one does a thing to stop it or to apprehend Gregor immediately afterwards. If Gregor had lived, I doubt there would have been a trial.

[Fire Eater]

@Winterfellian, good points

Cersei is the kind who likes to play with her food before she eats it, as she has shown in AFfC regarding Sansa.

Tyrion to Pod: "You've been a good squires to me. Better than I deserved. Whatever happens, I thank you for your leal service."

I think Tyrion doesn't know how much that probably meant to Pod. Tyrion is probably the only person to have ever complimented Pod like that.

Nice write up Lummel, I might add.

[Woman of War]

Good post # 107, winterfellian

Some material about the situation of cripples in Medieval times:

Dr. Horwitz, assistant professor in the Orthopedic Surgery Department of St. Louis University, in an article entitled The Cripple's Place in Society Through the Ages, published in The Nation's Health of August, 1923, called attention to the fact that the word "cripple" is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word "creep." The word "dwarf," he points out, is closely akin to the Sanskrit word "dhvaras" meaning "evil one incarnate." The psychology behind this evolution of diction is obvious. The doctor lists four causes for the traditional dislike of the physically handicapped:

1. A dislike of the imperfect, as among the Hebrews.

2. The knowledge that the cripple would be a burden upon the community, and be a poor soldier.

3. The thought that an imperfect body necessarily harbors an imperfect mind.

4. The fear of an evil spirit.

Convinced that the cripple embodied an evil spirit, of ill omen to the community; that he would never be an asset to their armies; and that he was apt to become a social burden, our fore-fathers ostracized him, sacrificed him to their Gods, or abandoned him in his infancy. We note the following passage among the laws governing the Levite priests, an early record of the fear and ostracism with which cripples were confronted among the Hebrews; "Whosoever he be in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whosoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted or brokenhanded or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed,. . .he shall eat of the bread of his God. . .Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he has a blemish."

The Spartans exposed their unfortunate children in infancy. Roman law allowed the paterfamilias to destroy his children, but did not require any uniform procedure........

During the Middle Ages, two famous men who overcame their disabilities were "Hermann, the Cripple," a German who died in 1054, and a French poet, Paul Scarron, who died in 1660. The first of these was entirely paralyzed, and found it almost impossible to speak. His greatest achievement was the production of a history of the German people during the tenth and eleventh centuries, entitled A Chronicle of the Six Ages of the World.

As a rule, however, medieval cripples, and particularly crippled children, were cruelly exploited for purposes of amusement. The contemporary lack of a sense of social responsibility toward the handicapped has resulted in the survival of very little literature specifically demonstrating this situation, but much has come down to us in the fiction and drama. The courts of Europe were constantly entertained by deformed jesters and fools, and, in Italy, Roman beggars made slaves of crippled children to exhibit their deformities on the public roadways and gain the sympathies of pedestrians. Frequently these men would actually maim children, or increase their infirmity, that the appeal to sympathy might be more effective, and the profits resultantly greater.

To make a long quote short, being (born) crippled identified a person as being crippled in a spiritual sense too, as evil spirit in an evil mind, the blemished who is not supposed to come near the altar, who does not deserve the grace of god because it is that very same god that had marked him as flawed, a sign of being away from god. So being the evil monkey (the monkey as jester, by nature prone to falsehood) demon was seen as necessarily self fulfilling prophecy by Tyrion's environment. He had to be guilty of whatever because he was already marked as guilty by his mere existence, second original sin piled on top. And here lies the ground why in Jewish-Christian mythology the cripple is so often identified with unrestricted and therefore dirty sexuality, a prejudice monotheistic prudery still is not free of, a trope Martin is joyfully playing with.

[Lummel]

... It isn't just that Tyrion shifts the blame from the jest to the fart. What struck me was he shifts the blame from his father who was responsible for the murdering that made the fart tragic in the first place.

Yes, you're quote right, it does go much futher and he doesn't blame his father, he blames the fart as though it was Baelor's fault for eating too many beans. Which is interesting because we know that all those great lords and ladies decided to play the game of thrones, and they decided that "you win or you die". The course of history was not decided by a fart.

I found Tywin's steepled finger pose most interesting... For Tywin this is a gesture of plotting and manipulation. The other character that uses a steepled finger gesture is Littlefinger. He uses the gesture when Tyrion makes his Myrcella/Sweetrobin fake offer (which ironically triggers the Dontos/Sansa meeting that was so helpful in damning him here) and again when he suggests the Patchface as Shireen's father lie.

Steepling is quite confident and slightly domineering body language.

...Tywin turns purple and slams his fist on the table which is the worst loss of composure he's had to date. He handled Jaime losing an army and getting captured far better than this.

:laugh: very true. So what can we say? Tywin has to face his children have escaped his control? That he sees 'sharp lessons' haven't worked? That his struggle is to dominate the family, if he has control there then he can cope with set backs elsewhere? Tytos is still pulling his string from beyond the grave here I think.

For all the fault I can find with Tyrion's willful blindness and passivity throughout this book, this trial and its tone are still all Tywin's doing. Tyrion gave him the Dornish and Tyrell alliances that sit to his left and right at this trial. One would think he earned at least some of the protection "leal service" provides that Tywin shows to Gregor.

Yes it's great, I think Tywin could have quashed the accusation, you have an autopsy and you fake the result. All you need for that is one Maester to say he found a crust of pie in the boy's throat - a terrible tragedy - end of story. Surely Tywin can find one corrupt or pro-Lannister Maester, perhaps an elderly one who like to sleep with serving girls and would prefer not to see the Black Cells, who could do this for him? But Tywin chooses not to do this, or indeed he could have had Varys brief teh witnesses and have a much more uncertain body of evidence and then exiled Tyrion for a bit, but Tywin chooses not to.

I like Rapsie's Biblical reference to "I was my hands of it." There is also the "clean hands" theme that runs through the book. LF mentions it explicitly to Sansa. Tywin puts the blood on Walder Frey's hands for the Red Wedding and on Lorch and Gregor for Elia's children. This really stands out compared to Ned who literally gets blood on his own hands by doing his own killing both in battle and in justice. We also have Aemon's speech to Jon about staying or leaving the NW where Jon has blood on his hand up to his wrist. Martin seems to have a theme related to owning the blood on your hands that I read as a rather positive thing. Tywin's hands are all over this trial and everything that led up to it but it is one thing this possession centric man doesn't want to own.

I agree, Tywin is careful at several points to avoid being seen as responsible, in this case from Joffrey, to the wedding, to Tyurion and Cersei's rivalry there is a lot here that Tywin has at least some responsibility for but he prefers to wash his hands.

...Actually Tyrion connected Shae with the L word all the way back to ACOK...

Yes, not quite as direct, but he does use the L word in connection to her. ;)

About Shae's testimony, I think she's not just a resource the author is using to makes us sympathize more with Tyrion but her presence reveals more about her and Cersei's natures that it does of Tyrion himself ... Shae's purpose was merely to humiliate Tyrion, to bring out his deficiencies as a whole man for all the court to mock.

I like that, good point.

This little speech is very interesting. I think it will be easy to dismiss it as Tyrion blaming his problems on his dwarfism, as he is wont to do in other occasions, but there's more to it than that. Despite Tywin's assurances that Tyrion isn't being on trial on account for being a dwarf, Shae's testimony defies this notion. Her whole testimony is so overly ridiculous and it is only heightened by her exchange with Oberyn. The imagery of the whole court laughing at Tyrion asking his whore to calll him Giant of Lannister is a very powerful one. I feel this is a case where Tyrion is entitled, for lack if a better word, to feel the world is out to get him for him being a dwarf. Will people have been less willing to find him guilty if he was as comely as Ser Loras instead as a monkey demon? Or would his actions at the Blackwater had gone forgotten if he had been as physically attractive as Jaime in his prime? Unfortunately, Tyrion's dwarfism does play a part in this trial.

Yes I can see that and humilation I think is key for both Tyrion and Tywin at this trial.

LOL You don't give up, do you? :P

Oh you know, I'm stiffnecked and blockheaded and those are just my good qualities :)

Basically yes, a neat bit of psychoanalysis on your part. I don't like to see people living in the shadow of an oppressive parent. I concede intellectually that they may be as much them as the person they might become if they broke free, but I know which seems more 'right' to me.

Yes, fair enough.

By the way that question of how you see Tyrion, if you have an ideal Tyrion was not just directed at a wildling, it was a general question open to all you posters and lurkers. Do you think there is a real / true or actual Tyrion, or do you have your favourite Tyrion, or do you think he changes and develops?

...Just to add in the Arya Re-read we have just seen Arya kill the guard at Harrenhal and when looking at the blood on her hands thinks how the rain will wash then clean.

it's a very strong image and one as you say and as Ragnorak has pointed oout crops up in a few POVs, the other classic is Petyr complaining about getting sticky hands from eating oranges and how you should always have clean hands to Sansa which in context is clearly meant to be understood figuratively as well as literally. And "I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean" as Stannis says in Davos II ACOK in his inverse Lady macBeth moment.

Your observation about Cersei and Tyrion in this chapter really got me thinking about just how much Cersei and Tyrion have in common.

Would you maybe like to share a bit more about that :) is there anything else that stands out for you that they have in common?

Edit: I meant to mention this earlier, but I think it's notable that a murder is committed *during* the murder trial and no one does a thing to stop it or to apprehend Gregor immediately afterwards. If Gregor had lived, I doubt there would have been a trial.

collateral damage. I agree, I can't imagine there would be a trial, would the family even get compensation?

...I think Tyrion doesn't know how much that probably meant to Pod. Tyrion is probably the only person to have ever complimented Pod like that...

Brienne is also quite nice to Poderick Payne!

ETA

@ Woman of War; great quote, thanks for that :thumbsup:

[greensleeves]

Would you maybe like to share a bit more about that :) is there anything else that stands out for you that they have in common?

This probably deserves a fully thought out essay some day, but here's a list I put together fairly quickly. All of this is only half formed in my head; I'm sure there are things I'm missing and some things I'm off on.

- They are both born 'defective': Tyrion is born a dwarf and Cersei is born a woman.

- They are both extremely resentful of their respective 'defects'. They think about how much better their lives would be without these defects.

- In particular, they think about how people would respect them as authority figures without the defects.

- They have a tendency to transfer the blame for their mistakes onto discrimination because of the defects.

- They think that their father looks down on them for the defects.

- He probably does.

- They are both unable to stand up to their father for most of their lives.

- They view Jaime as their main source of emotional support.

- Jaime is probably the person they trust the most.

- At the same time, they constantly live in Jaime's shadow and wish they had been born like him.

- They lose him in the same conversation.

- They are both promiscuous

- Cersei uses sex to manipulate people; People use sex to manipulate Tyrion.

- Cersei compares herself to Tywin and tries to be like him; Tyrion is compared to Tywin and seems to actually be like him.

- Their physical appearance is very important to them.

- After their family breaks apart, they become alcoholics.

- After ASOS, they each think the other is actively trying to kill them.

- After ASOS, even though they are not in contact their actions still provide threats to the other.

- Tywin messes up their marriage prospects (if some of the analysis here is true). Cersei loses Rhaegar... Tyrion loses his wife (and perhaps others)

- .... only to arrange marriages for them to seemingly highly desirable people (Robert, Sansa).

- .... these marriages are both completely loveless and end with the poisoning and death of a king.

- Sansa is in the custody of one or the other during her time in King's Landing.

[Winter's Knight]

Greensleeves, I have a thread on the Cersei/Tyrion parallels if you're interested?

[1234567]

Another thought struck me about how Tyrion's dwarfism affects his status. When Oberyn is telling Tyrion about his mother's betrothal requests being denied he tells Tyrion that he was offered instead of Jaime and Tyrion mentions it was taken as an outrage, Oberyn says

It was. Even you can see that, surely?

Tyrion brushes the statement off and then reflects on parents etc, but for all he blames things on his dwarfism, when confronted with someone actually saying that he should be aware that his status as a dwarf affects how he is viewed, he denies it, or chooses not to realise it.

Again this harks back to Cersei and her assertion that she is being used as a broodmare. As Lannisters they have an unrealistic view of the world and how they can interact with it.

[greensleeves]

Greensleeves, I have a thread on the Cersei/Tyrion parallels if you're interested?

Thanks! It looks like a great thread (even though you did get a lot of defensive Tyrion fans). I really do agree with your premise; Cersei and Tyrion way more in common with each other than I ever thought about.

[Lummel]

Another thought struck me about how Tyrion's dwarfism affects his status. When Oberyn is telling Tyrion about his mother's betrothal requests being denied he tells Tyrion that he was offered instead of Jaime and Tyrion mentions it was taken as an outrage, Oberyn says

Tyrion brushes the statement off and then reflects on parents etc, but for all he blames things on his dwarfism, when confronted with someone actually saying that he should be aware that his status as a dwarf affects how he is viewed, he denies it, or chooses not to realise it.

Again this harks back to Cersei and her assertion that she is being used as a broodmare. As Lannisters they have an unrealistic view of the world and how they can interact with it.

Yes but you are jumping on the dwarfism too. Offering Tyrion to marry Elia of Dorne instead of Jaime is also a blow because of the age difference. Elia was about seventeen at the time of Tyrion's birth, she would have been something like 33 by the time the marriage was consummated (Wiki has their birth years as 257 and 274 respectively). So it's a flat out ridiculous suggestion on Tywin's part to start, plus he is offering his second son in place of his heir! Even if Tyrion was not a dwarf that is an unacceptable offer for a Princess of Dorne, and outrageous to my mind is fair description.

Broodmare, I don't know. There's a good part of me that says that is a reasonable complaint on her part, although in part that comes possibly from her seeing marriage as domination rather than cooperation. For the likes of Cersei and Lysa marriage is a form of warfare. Others seem to have better relationships.

ETA transferring the blame to the dwarfism is the same as transferring it to the fart. Tyrion is shifting responsibility to those who could have decided to do things differently to things that were out of the control of people. Nobody chose to make Tyrion a dwarf but Tywin chose to offer a new born baby (without lands or inheritance) as a potential husband to an adult woman who in tyrion V ASOS was described by Oberyn as cooing over him as a mother might to her own new born child - its comedy (or would be if Tywin had not decided to make it into a tragedy).

[1234567]

Good point about the age differences. I'd forgotten there was such a gap.

[Lummel]

Don't he hard on yourself - this is Tyrion's POV and he is pushing you to ignore the age difference, he is pushing the dwarf business, that is his agenda - poor me, I suffer because the gods choose to make me a dwarf.

We have to look and pull information to together to say well actually what doesn't make your agenda of personal woes, Mr Tyrion, is how much is due to the decisions of Tywin.

For sure as a dwarf he is never going to be a great warrior, but he is a Lannister so he doesn't have to be. Worlds of opportunity are closed off to Tyrion, he chooses to blame the impersonal (the fart, being a dwarf), but it's Tywin who decides in some cases to close those worlds off, or Tyrion's reaction to Tywin's attitudes. Tyrion in Westeros, by virtue of his birth, could be anything, apart from a great warrior. There's no reason outside of the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic why he can't be a Great Lord, husband and Father, Maester, Septon, Commander of the Lannisport Watch etc etc. (although might be a bit difficult trying to be all of those at once).