Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Ragnorak]

I think Lummel's age difference is probably the most obvious reason it was an insult and one that can't be rationalized away at all. There's also this

it was only when your brother Jaime said, ‘Leave him be, you’re hurting him’, that Cersei let go of you. ‘It doesn’t matter’, she told us. ‘Everyone says he’s like to die soon. He shouldn’t even have lived this long.’”

Why Tywin chose to deliberately insult his wife's friend, the woman who made the Kingdom of Dorne his ally, rather than politely decline is still a huge mystery to me. He makes an enemy here for absolutely no gain. Did she bring up Rhaegar/Elia during their talk? That would at least help explain things on one level but still make Jaime/Elia a mystery. Why not take Elia out of the Rhaegar running?

Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead.

The deathbed makes it sound to me like political advice-- a recap of Dorne's standing to her new leaders, the power transition meeting. Doran ruled when Elia was killed so this is before any open conflict between the two Houses and unless this is after the Harrenhal Tournament Tywin is still Hand.

For those who like Gregor as the giant made of stone

He looks as though he was chiseled out of rock, standing there.

We have a bit of the Lannister/Stark difference here.

King Tommen was not in evidence; for that, at least, Tyrion was grateful.

“Is he afraid?” Ned asked.

“A little,” she admitted. “He is only three.”

Ned frowned. “He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.”

Gregor with the symbol of the Faith on his shield is a sick kind of irony. Oberyn peels it away showing the truth underneath.

“Shut UP!” the Mountain howled at the stableboy’s scream, and this time he swung the blade sideways, sending the top half of the lad’s head across the yard in a spray of blood and brains.

The champion of justice murders a stableboy during the trial. The arm might be viewed as an accident but not this blow. What does everyone else think of this? We don't get another POV. I imagine it is seen as a sign much like Cat views the dead direwolf. Then their champion confesses to raping and killing Elia and killing Aegon. Again as far as justice in the eyes of the gods this has to be seen as a bit peculiar. Does this impact how Tyrion killing Tywin is seen later? How many knew of Oberyn's quest for justice here and that Lorch was the one who was served?

[Elba the Intoner]

Just popping in to say that I loved Winterfellian's post and I completely agree with regard to the purpose of Shae's testimony being solely for humiliation and that Tyrion's dwarfism is in fact on trial. I'd just like to add that regarding the dwarfism being on trial, it is Tyrion who is the judge of that trial and coming up with the guilty verdict against himself. I really felt for Tyrion here very much. I still absolutely hate Shae for her testimony here, the whole Giant of Lannister line was something she made up herself - Tyrion never told her to call him that, even though after this reread I have a better understanding of her motivations and the background that drove her into prostitution in the first place and that Cersei was behind this humiliation too. Cersei really took a play right out of Tywin's play book with this sexual humiliation sharp lesson that she brings down on Tyrion via Shae's testimony.

[Winterfellian]

@woman of war, very interesting quote.

I just want to one last thought about Shae. I think is rather clever of Cersei the way she handles the witnesses and the order in which they are lined up. Shae is perhaps the best example, since with her Cersei went with a very different dynamic. Unlike the others who were there as merely witnesses of Tyrion's part in Joffrey's murder Shae is presented in a dual role. She is both witness and victim. Even in her role as witness she is there to corroborate the crime for which Tyrion is being accused (the murder) and the crime upon which he's also being judged (his condition as a dwarf), serving a dual function. Conveniently enough Shae is also a victim of Tyrion's dwarfism given that she is doing her best to present herself as being sexually used by Tyion in more ways than one (both for sexual satisfaction and as means to inflate his ego by calling him Giant of Lannister).

For me with Shae's avowals, Cersei was going for the kill. It is as if Cersei's rationalization was "if all the substantial evidence presented to the court is not enough to convince them of Tyrion's guilt, then Shae's testimony besides serving to mock Tyrion wlll reaffirm why Tyrion really is gulity, he's a dwarf! He's both an object of ridicule as he is corrupted by nature.

The effect all this has on Tyrion is certainly interesting. In last chapter we see him angry and frustrated at the fact he will go down in history as a kingslayer/kinslayer, but by the time the trial closes up he openly regrets that he's not the monster people believe him to be. Does he truly regret this as of now? This is all paving the way for the Tyrion we see in ADWD where he openly accepts the role of what he's being accused now.

ETA- Thanks WOW and Elba the intoner

Edited for much needed clarification

[Lummel]

Yes, it certainly looks as though Cersei ordered it so that the last evidence is there to reduce Tyrion to being nothing more than a dwarf as defined by Woman of War's quote - lustful and evil, dangerous but also laughable

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - one small example of the big, bad parent is quite eloquently expressed in Tyrion's conversation with the shadow on the wall after he elects for trial by combat.

"Did you think that I'd go meekly, Father? . . . I have too much of you in me for that." I love this image of Tyrion talking to his shadow. Of course it evokes Jung's concept of the Shadow as that primitive and instinctive side of one's personality. One could argue that this shadow "side" is a survival instinct. Also, Tyrion's shadow has been commented upon throughout his arc: from the Jon chapter in Got onwards. This image, too, is a part of Varys' riddle to Tyrion.

As for the Hand's hands, it's interesting how Tywin's hand goes quickly to a fist that he slams down upon the table once Tyrion make the election for trial by combat. A "stone fist" shows up upon the crest of Gregor's greathelm.

Ragnorak - The "steepled" fingers gesture suggests a church steeple. Another allusion to Lord Tywin as god?

Finally, as to Gregor, his shield has been painted over. He no longer bears the sigil of his house, the three black hounds. Now, Gregor carries on his shield the seven pointed star of the Faith. Tywin Gods is are on his side, although one of those nasty hounds rears its ugly head again after a bit of fighting. "a dog's head peeped out from under the star."

[Lummel]

The shadow is interesting (I must find a synonym I'm comfortable with for interesting, that word seems to appear in most my posts, so much for style :laugh: ).

Are tyrion and tywin so alike that in Jungian terms we can regard each as the shadow of each other? That Tywin has a whoring, joking side that he represses just as Tyrion perhaps has an authoritative 'stone' side that he blocks? They fight each other, but really this is a fight against themselves? Tywin denies Tyrion his right because he embodies things that he does not like about himself?

[Woman of War]

Winterfellian, i liked your post # 123 very much , only there is a short sentence I do not get:

Conveniently enough Shae is also a vistim of Tyrion's dwarfism given that she was raped by Tyion time and time again.

Why was Shae raped? As I have repeatedly posted I actually like the character Shae more than you seem to do, that clever selfmadewoman. But she was not raped, she wanted to have a career through Tyrion and fully agreed to have sex with him. She was not forced or bribed, and she even insisted to stay with him until he became a bad investment.

And no way the incredibly rich Lannister lord wanted to cheat the prostitute by hiding her stuff. Shae was really unreasonalble by showing off at court with jewellery and fancy fashion. No way he wanted her services for free, he was simply inconsiderate.

And that lord's kiss when he climbed into her bed at night....... That is a game I enjoy myself! But if your partner wakes you up before that nice surprise and asks you if you agree - then where is the pointand the fun in it???

I am not really fond of rape definition threads because I think that insisting to put a label on things is not really helpful, it is far better to look at what actually happened, so we probably will only agree to disagree. But I do not think that it can always be called rape when a prostitute does not thoroughly enjoy her client as long as she agreed to the contract.

[Blisscraft]

The shadow is interesting (I must find a synonym I'm comfortable with for interesting, that word seems to appear in most my posts, so much for style :laugh: ).

Thought provoking, stimulating, head scratching????

Are tyrion and tywin so alike that in Jungian terms we can regard each as the shadow of each other? That Tywin has a whoring, joking side that he represses just as Tyrion perhaps has an authoritative 'stone' side that he blocks? They fight each other, but really this is a fight against themselves? Tywin denies Tyrion his right because he embodies things that he does not like about himself?

:dunno: I was hoping you could tell me. . .

[Lummel]

Me! :laugh: it's not my place to tell you or anybody else stuff like that, this is interpretation, I give my opinion and remember citations when I can, othersides I don't know that much about Jung. I do believe that Ragnorak has some interest there so maybe he will comment.

But Tyrion and Twyin we're told by Auntie Genna were the most alike. Some of us are familiar with similar people in those types of relationships tending to clash. And if you go with the Tywin slept with Shae because he was making use of prostitutes too approach then there is another similarity, except one that Tywin kept hidden but was public with Tyrion (although with a nod to Woman of war who I think has made this point before, possibly this is more self-deprecation than fact).

[Winterfellian]

Winterfellian, i liked your post # 123 very much , only there is a short sentence I do not get:

Why was Shae raped? As I have repeatedly posted I actually like the character Shae more than you seem to do, that clever selfmadewoman. But she was not raped, she wanted to have a career through Tyrion and fully agreed to have sex with him. She was not forced or bribed, and she even insisted to stay with him until he became a bad investment.

And no way the incredibly rich Lannister lord wanted to cheat the prostitute by hiding her stuff. Shae was really unreasonalble by showing off at court with jewellery and fancy fashion. No way he wanted her services for free, he was simply inconsiderate.

And that lord's kiss when he climbed into her bed at night....... That is a game I enjoy myself! But if your partner wakes you up before that nice surprise and asks you if you agree - then where is the pointand the fun in it???

I am not really fond of rape definition threads because I think that insisting to put a label on things is not really helpful, it is far better to look at what actually happened, so we probably will only agree to disagree. But I do not think that it can always be called rape when a prostitute does not thoroughly enjoy her client as long as she agreed to the contract.

I think I was uncler so I will go back and correct my post (blame it on my not so perfect english :P). I am fully aware their relationship is 100% consensual. What I meant is that Shae is presenting herself as the victim of un-consented sex for all the jury:

I never meant t be a whore m'lords...

He (Tyrion) said that if I didn't pleasure he'll give me to them (the clansmen) so I did. Then he brought me to the city so I'd be close when he wanted me. He made me do such shameful things.

On the morning of the wedding he dragged me down where they keep the dragons and fucked me there with the monsters all aorund. And when I cried he said I ought to be more grateful.

Until finally she ends with the fact that Tyrion used her and her body to feel like a giant:

He used me every way there was, and... he used me to tell him how big he was.

To the judges, she is definitely coming off as the victim in all her dealings with Tyrion, even if we as readers know this isn't true.

ETA- @ Blisscraft, love the observation you made about Tyrion and his shadow.

[Woman of War]

Thank you, Winterfellian. And I am not a native speaker either, so I feel with you.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - Part of the reason that I liked the "shadow on the wall" image is that because it is a "dark reflection" or negative space of the shadow caster, it could mean many things. This is true, especially in light of the fact that Tyrion is speaking to it, while he has a glass of wine, as if he is speaking to his father. However, he is talking only to himself.

[Ragnorak]

Great posts everyone. Missing the like feature.

I looked at Jaime's next chapter looking for some clues.

“Did you turn into an utter fool when Tyrion shaved your beard? This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm’s End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he’s finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years. So we will not offend the Martells any further, for any reason. The Dornishmen are free to go, and you will heal Ser Gregor.”

Does Tyrion have to die to appease the Martells in Tywin's mind? If Oberyn dies to defend Tywin's son who is then spared is that offending Dorne further? It also paints a bit of a picture of the mess Tyrion created for Tywin by choosing Trial by Combat.

If Tyrion had obeyed Tywin in bedding Sansa would that have earned him Tywin's protection here? I was trying to imagine how Oberyn saw Tyrion personally and politically during his time in KL. Tyrion refusing to bed his wife in a marriage arranged by Tywin strikes me as a clear sign of a rift. The Lannister/Martell conflict also all goes back to marriage.

In general I see a lot of support for WK's take on Cersei/Tyrion in that chapter. We also see Kevan trying to persuade Jaime to go to Tywin just as Kevan was the messenger to Tyrion in his cell. We see Cersei trying to use Jaime to persuade Tywin by asking him to leave the KG so they can be together. It is a mirror of how she got him to join the KG in the first place. Does Tywin know that original story? Does he know about the incest? Is he intentionally playing Cersei and Jaime off each other the way he did with Cersei and Tyrion? Is there anything here that sheds light on Tyrion's would be fate had the choice been Tywin's?

I could go either way on most of those questions other than believing Tywin knows about the incest. Any thoughts?

[A wilding]

To the judges, she is definitely coming off as the victim in all her dealings with Tyrion, even if we as readers know this isn't true.

I am not sure that I really agree with this. I personally suspect that no one was taking her evidence entirely seriously. They knew what she was and probably have ingrained beliefs about how much of a liar such women are likely to be.

The point of her testimony was a change of tone to comic relief. To humiliate Tyrion and display him as a lustful little monkey demon, as said above.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Why Tywin chose to deliberately insult his wife's friend, the woman who made the Kingdom of Dorne his ally, rather than politely decline is still a huge mystery to me. He makes an enemy here for absolutely no gain. Did she bring up Rhaegar/Elia during their talk? That would at least help explain things on one level but still make Jaime/Elia a mystery. Why not take Elia out of the Rhaegar running?

The deathbed makes it sound to me like political advice-- a recap of Dorne's standing to her new leaders, the power transition meeting. Doran ruled when Elia was killed so this is before any open conflict between the two Houses and unless this is after the Harrenhal Tournament Tywin is still Hand.

I came to the conclusion that Aerys wasn't mad about the offer itself. he was mad that tywin trampled the wishes of Joanna. which makes me think that

[Elba the Intoner]

Something I noticed in rereading this chapter is that Shae's story of how she was engaged to a young knight or lordling but then Tyrion saw her and sent for her and sent her betrothed to the front lines of the battle of the Greenfork where he was killed reminds me a lot of the story of David and Bathsheba. In Jon's chapter where he meets Tyrion at Winterfell, it ends with Tyrion's shadow being cast and for a moment he stood as tall as a king. David was a great warrior and strategist and he became a King who was a good ruler, but in his personal life, in punishment for what he did to Bathsheba's husband Uriah, he suffered much family strife and internal fighting. Also, there is the famous story of how David as a boy slew the Giant which parallels what happened here as Tyrion is the cause of Gregor, the Mountain's, demise. Also this is the start of his complete rift with his family as in the next chapter Jaime tells him the truth about Tysha which causes a rift between Tyrion and Jaime, the one Lannister he still cared for. I'm probably reading way too much into this and not sure if it is at all relevant, but I thought it was noteworthy.

[butterbumps!]

Winterfellian and Woman of War-- you both made really good points about how Tyrion's dwarfism is on trial. I agree largely, especially with regard to Shae's testimony, which serves little more than to expose Tyrion as a lecherous little monster.

I wonder if it's more complicated than that, though. I feel uncomfortable seeing the trial as fundamentally about dwarfism in the way Tyrion does, because by framing this around dwarfism, I think it removes Tyrion's own responsibility in creating the "skeletons in the closet" that come out of the woodwork for this event.

I think all of our lives have a certain degree of assumed circumscription based on our biology (gender, whether one has good or poor health, physical prowess, "abnormal" development, beauty, etc). I do believe that Tyrion's dwarfism is a fundamentally inescapable feature of his personal development, and for all the reasons WoW outlined, this particular biological "abnormality" is a significant additional burden, especially in a Medieval context. I do recognize that accidents of biology like beauty and abnormality strongly shape the way the world perceives each of us. To this extent, I do believe that Tyrion has "been on trial" for being a dwarf his entire life-- his biological "starting point" puts him at a considerable disadvantage (though, like Jon and Dany, Tyrion's "starting point" also has an enchantingly advantageous- unjustly oppressed interesting duality to it given his status as a Lannister).

So I do think on one level, "trial for dwarfism" has been an ongoing part of Tyrion's life. Yet, if we look at this trial as a moment of crisis in Tyrion's arc (I'm separating the actual murder trial from the importance of "trial" as a character turning point), I don't see him as a victim of dwarfism as much as I see him "guilty" of being a Lannister and "guilty" of letting the dwarfism become his identity. It's been pointed out in this reread that the only one who follows Tyrion's advice to Jon about armoring oneself in their "handicap" is Jon; Tyrion, it turns out, hates laughter as much as Tywin.

Further to the point, any time that Tyrion faces adversity or friction, he rationalizes that the source of this friction is other people's prejudice against dwarves and/ or his lack of beauty. I think it's significant that when people go against him, Tyrion places the reasons for their doing so on the one reason he genuinely has no control over; from this mindset, it enables Tyrion to always see himself as a victim, and never as a lesson for character growth. I was talking with another poster recently about how "stagnant" Tyrion's character has been up to this point, and I think the fact that Tyrion continually deflects criticism of himself to his dwarfism has much to do with this idea of stagnation; he doesn't evolve, because he doesn't separate the essence of the criticisms he receives from the assumption that it's always about his appearance. Although he was "sharper" at his trial at the Eyrie in aGoT, his personal view of the trial is largely identical: in both cases he was accused of crimes he was innocent of, but "confesses" to the fact that he's a "vile little man" in both instances. The major difference is that back at the Vale, this confession was largely disingenuous, whereas at the current trial, Tyrion's "I am a dwarf" confession is full of righteous anger.

It's striking to me that much has happened between both of these trials, yet Tyrion remains entrenched in his view that these things only happen to him because he's a dwarf; we are privy to the fact that he personally made choices that have come back to haunt him in these intervening chapters, and these choices have nothing to do with his being a victim of outsider's dwarf-hate.

I know that many characters use derogatory words toward Tyrion, like "monkey demon" and "imp," but I strongly believe that his own behavior is the cause of most of his misfortunes that are brought into relief by the trial. I think many people tend to use insults that are not necessarily the source of their displeasure with someone; for example, I think that there are real life figures who become the object of insults based on appearance by those who disagree with their platform-- the reason for the dislike of the person stems from ideological or personal differences, yet appearance often becomes the subject for criticism (I'm specifically thinking of people like Hilary Clinton, the object of much criticism of this ilk). When Tyrion was called the "monkey demon" it was not because of his dwarfism despite the articulation of the hate; it was because conditions had worsened, and Tyrion was the only variable. Thus he was a lightening rod for people's displeasure.

I think that the issue of dwarfism obfuscates the actual "crime" Tyrion is guilty of: being a Lannister. Nearly all of the poor decisions that have come back to haunt him at this trial are directly connected to working for the Lannister cause in some way, or "Lannister pride," from his marriage to Sansa, to fostering hate with Cersei and Pycelle; even his problems with Shae stem from his Lannister ties and conflicts.

But I think the actual trial is far more complicated than a duality between dwarfism and Lannisterism. The fact of Tyrion's innocence and the proceedings are so unjust that it's hard not to see Tyrion as a victim here in some capacity. He's definitely a victim of injustice as far as the trial is concerned, though there's an interesting complexity in that some of his accusers do have legitimate reasons for their grievances. In much the same way Cersei's walk of shame was a despicable punishment for something other than her actual crimes, I see Tyrion's trial in a similar manner-- he's guilty of bad things, though not what's on the table for discussion. There's also the multiple political strings that are being pulled at this trial (LF, Olenna, Tywin, Varys, Oberyn), which adds another layer of injustice to the whole ordeal.

I think that in this trial, Tyrion does reap some of what he has sown; the tremendous injustice of the way the trial is carried out, as well as his innocence of the particular crime he's on trial for, obfuscates Tyrion's culpability to himself and the reader, I think. I think that Shae's testimony functions almost exactly like Cersei's WoS, in that this is the death blow punishment to strip Tyrion of any authority he might still hold, and "exposing" him as a monster.

[A wilding]

+1 to another excellent post. I thought this a particularly interesting insight:

I think that Shae's testimony functions almost exactly like Cersei's WoS, in that this is the death blow punishment to strip Tyrion of any authority he might still hold, and "exposing" him as a monster.

So in some tiny sense the WoS was poetic justice (if vastly worse than what Shae did).

[1234567]

I wonder if it's more complicated than that, though. I feel uncomfortable seeing the trial as fundamentally about dwarfism in the way Tyrion does, because by framing this around dwarfism, I think it removes Tyrion's own responsibility in creating the "skeletons in the closet" that come out of the woodwork for this event.

Brilliant post in entirity and couldn't agree with the above more.

I think that Shae's testimony functions almost exactly like Cersei's WoS, in that this is the death blow punishment to strip Tyrion of any authority he might still hold, and "exposing" him as a monster.

I think Jaime's loss of a hand also features in the same way as his major authority in the eyes of Westeros is as a Knight. His marshall prowess is one of the reasons he is respected, but also feared.

[Winterfellian]

Snip

Bumps, great post! I mostly agree with you. I think in great part the trouble is that while the trial isn’t fundamentally about dwarfism, Tyrion’s “involvement” in Joffrey’s murder and his condition as a dwarf aren’t mutually exclusive during the trial, as Shae’s testimony exposes. It is difficult to draw the lines upon where the judgment for one crime ends the judgment for another begin, especially since Tyrion is wont to use his dwarfism as an excuse in other actions where this applicable and because Tywin (who sees Tyrion’s dwarfism as a punishment from the Gods) is sitting there as judge.

I don't see him as a victim of dwarfism as much as I see him "guilty" of being a Lannister and "guilty" of letting the dwarfism become his identity

I like how you phrase this, and I agree though to a certain extent. I know Tyrion often gets compared with Jon in this instance due to the advice he offered Jon when they first met so I tried wrapping my mind around the dynamics of how a person can avoid becoming a victim of his own identity, in this case bastard and/or dwarf. I know that the strength to do this must ultimately come from within the person but I can’t help but wonder how much external motivation and nurture play a part to bring this on. Jon had by far a better childhood that Tyrion in terms of acceptance and love and had the added motivation of Donal Noye’s advice at the Night Watch. Despite this, Jon is ultimately responsible for not letting his status as bastard define him, just as Tyrion does have the last word when it comes to letting his dwarfism define him. But a part of me wonders if Tyrion was ever offered an external motivation to move past his dwarfism or if he had a better childhood his condition wouldn’t define him as much as it does now so I think is unfair to lay all the blame in him. Yes, Tyrion lets his dwarfism become his identity. But how much of this is his own fault? (and like I wrote earlier, he has the last word in this, so he's not innocent also) How much is Tywin's? How much is Westerosi society in general?

He's definitely a victim of injustice as far as the trial is concerned, though there's an interesting complexity in that some of his accusers do have legitimate reasons for their grievances.

For me the complexity you are pointing out here goes far deeper than this. Yes, we have people like Pycelle that have a real bone to pick with Tyrion. Yet we also have others like Osmund Kettleblack who actually had dealings with Tyrion in ACOK and took coin from him. And others that had nothing to do with Tyrion whatsoever. It always struck me as ironic that what is perhaps the most incriminating evidence that seem to have been taken seriously (Lady Merryweather stating that she saw Tyrion poured the poison into Joffrey’s cup) came from someone that was virtually a stranger to Tyrion.