Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, butterbumps!

Tyrion is transported through a barrel, paying homage to Thorin Oakenshield and company, escaped from imprisonment by hiding in barrels. Thorin Oakenshield was on a quest to retake his mountain fortress and the vast amount of gold within it from a red dragon. The story is inverted with the dwarf Tyrion planning on retaking his mountain fortress and the gold within it using a red dragon (or as Illlyrio puts it a dragon with three heads), Daenerys, or dragons.

This may be reaching, but Tyrion refers to his time with Tysha the false spring of their marriage. The tourney of Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar was during the year of the false spring, could this hint at Lyanna and Rhaegar being married?

Illyrio has a suckling pig dipped in plum sauce, pigs are symbols of abundance and plums are symbols of infidelity, meaning Illyrio has prospered off of screwing people over.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion I (DwD)

or “a drunken dwarf wonders where whores go, pt 2”

“A dwarf without a nose who has no gold”

Tyrion prepares himself for exploration of the manse. Within a lapis and mother-of-pearl inlaid chest, he finds clothes made for a “small boy.” The clothes are luxuriously made, though old. As I mentioned in the preceding post, the existence of such clothes in Illyrio’s manse seems unusual; why would Illyrio have kept the clothes of a small boy thusly if not a boy who was once important to him? It’s unlikely that they came from a servant, given their richness, and also unlikely that he procured them recently, given that he’d more likely have bought new clothes rather than these “vintage” ones. We see no other hints of a young boy in the manse, but will soon see that Illyrio has an intense fondness for the boy, Aegon. These clothes, along with other clues in subsequent chapters, have led many to speculate that Illyrio may in fact be Aegon’s father, and that these boy’s clothes had once belonged to him.

Tyrion’s first stop is in the kitchens, where he comes across two older rubenesque women and a potboy. He tries asking them where whores go, in both Common Tongue and Valyrian, but receives only a shrug. He contemplates Illyrio’s promise that none of his servants will refuse Tyrion sexually, but Tyrion thinks he might not have luck with these two. He ponders whether he would smother to death in their flesh, and thinks that there are worse ways to die: “The way his lord father had died, for one. I should have made him shit a little gold before expiring. Lord Tywin might have been niggardly with his approval and affection, but he had always been open-handed when it came to coin. The only thing more pitiful than a dwarf without a nose is a dwarf without a nose who has no gold.” This is perhaps the first time this chapter Tyrion contemplates suicide, though I’m unsure how actively he’s truly seeking it. That is, I get the sense that he feels purposeless and caught in a whirlwind, and that oblivion would be comforting to him, though I don’t believe he’s truly suicidal. However, Tyrion’s thoughts of his own death are a recurring theme throughout the second half of this chapter.

Tyrion leaves the kitchens in search of Illyrio’s wine cellar. Once there he chooses some strongwine from the private stock of Lord Runceford Redwyne, grandfather of the present Lord of the Arbor. He intended to drink in the yard he could see from his window, but loses his way and ends up in a different garden of the manse. As he walks through the gardens drinking, he takes in the surroundings, noting the absence of heads on the spikes atop the courtyard walls. He fantasizes about adorning them with the heads of his siblings one day: “Tyrion pictured how his sister’s head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister.” Of course, Tyrion has done just that; his very existence causes extreme paranoia in his sister, alienating her from the world psychologically, and his lies to Jaime drive a wedge between them.

He doesn’t trust Illyrio’s designs for him, and thinks about means of escape. He searches for an exit, but sees all openings are locked or guarded by Unsullied. He muses that he wished he’d thought about buying some Unsullied for himself before losing his fortunes. He walks further, into an interior courtyard where he sees a young washerwoman. Like the others, she goes about her business in silence despite Tyrion’s prattling, which he is surprisingly unconcerned about. He offers to marry her in exchange for smuggling him out as a futile gesture: “I’d be so grateful; why, I’ll even wed you. I have two wives already, why not three? Ah, but where would we live?”

He tells her of his plans to raise Myrcella to queenship, hoping to create a Lannister civil war, but changes his mind and talks through the pros and cons of going to the Wall instead: “Do you think I might stand taller in black, my lady?” He filled his cup again. “What do you say? North or

south? Shall I atone for old sins or make some new ones?”

These are probably my favorite lines in this chapter. Tyrion is bedraggled with guilt, broken, full of shame and loathing, futilely seeking some form of redemption, or barring that, something to give his life some kind of meaning. He mentions that one’s sins are wiped clean when they join the Watch, which is precisely what a part of him desires: a kind of baptism to wash his crimes. He’s not talking about standing taller in black because it’s slimming, but whether he could stand less burdened having been relieved of his past crimes. He’s really struggling with the conflict between wishing for purification and hoping to go out with the most damage possible.

The washerwoman leaves, and Tyrion is alone and obscenely drunk by now. He asks the clothing drying on a line where whores go, as another futile gesture. He reflects that he should have asked his father before killing him, and is clearly haunted by the reality of his sharp lesson: “She loved me. She was a crofter’s daughter, she loved me and she wed me, she put her trust in me.”

He sees a circle of seven mushrooms, pale white with blood red undersides. He notes the number of them, and wonders if the Seven are trying to send him a message to take his own life. Their number may implicate the Faith, but I’d gotten an old gods reference from them; as we know Bloodraven has been sprouting mushrooms, which grow in dark places, and the color—white and blood red—is certainly an old gods combination. He carefully puts the poisonous mushrooms into a glove he steals, then falls into a drunken sleep.

“No. I am done with women” Whores

Tyrion wakes up “drowing” in his featherbed again, this time greeted by a pretty servant. She speaks the Common Tongue, and explains she was bought for “the king” (Viserys). What follows is a rather unpleasant scene.

She tries to tell Tyrion her name, but he cuts her off, saying he doesn’t care about her name, but asks her where whores go. She thinks it’s a riddle and that Tyrion has the answer, which seems to infuriate him. That he doesn’t have the answer to this question is a source of great frustration for him, so the girl’s expectation that he has one frustrates him further, as he believes he “should” know. He’s not even particularly interested in sleeping with this girl: “I despise riddles, myself. “I will tell you nothing. Do me the same favor.” The only part of you that interests me is the part between your legs, he almost said. The words were on his tongue, but somehow never passed his lips. She is not Shae, the dwarf told himself, only some little fool who thinks I play at riddles. If truth be told, even her cunt did not interest him much. I must be sick, or dead.” His language here is crass, and he thinks his lack of sexual appetite means there is something wrong with him, but it makes sense; Tyrion is in a mourning of sorts, after all—for his father, his brother, Tysha and himself.

He tells the girl that he won’t require her as he’s “done with women, “ but she takes the news too well for his liking and changes his mind. He realizes that she despises him, but that this sort of loathing might be exactly what he needs: “She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.” (as per his choice of the heady, Malbec coloured vintage he takes from the cellar, it seems Tyrion wants to be done with “lies and Arbor Gold.”)

He gives her instructions on what he’d like when he returns from dinner; it’s extremely objectifying and uncomfortable: “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.”

He’s purposely trying to frighten her by his own admission, yet her body language shows no sign of fear, just revulsion. He’s again displeased, and tries to get a “more suitable” response from her: “It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.”

He’s pleased when she shows fear at this.

“The World is one great web”

Tyrion and Illyrio sit down to the best meal Tyrion believes he’s ever had; I’ll leave the particulars of the meal to our food symbolism experts here. Tyrion is very much seduced by the food, growing increasingly comfortable with this “hell” he has found himself in.

Illyrio begins their discussion by informing Tyrion of events in the East regarding the Slave Trade and Slaver’s Bay. Tyrion asks why such things matter, and Illyrio replies with a very Varys-like answer: “the world is one great web, and a man dare not touch a single strand lest all the others tremble.” Tyrion thought he understood the big picture back in Westeros, but with Illyrio, it’s clear that the game is much bigger and played much differently.

Illyrio calls for an exquisite dish of mushrooms. Tyrion is about to eat, but something stops him. He insists Illyrio must eat them first, believing they might be poisoned. Illyrio toys with Tyrion’s fear, intimating that they are in fact poisoned. Illyrio is testing Tyrion; Tyrion’s attitude and behavior has made it appear that he has a death wish of sorts, which Illyrio is calling him out for, making sure Tyrion still has a will to live: “Yet when a guest plainly wishes to end his own life, why, his host must oblige him, no?” He took a gulp. “Magister Ordello was poisoned by a mushroom not half a year ago. The pain is not so much, I am told. Some cramping in the gut, a sudden ache behind the eyes, and it is done. Better a mushroom than a sword through your neck, is it not so? Why die with the taste of blood in your mouth when it could be butter and garlic?”

Tyrion contemplates eating then with his mouth watering, believing that they are in fact poisonous: “Some part of him wanted those mushrooms, even knowing what they were. He was not brave enough to take cold steel to his own belly, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard. That frightened him more than he could say. “You mistake me,” he heard himself say.

Tyrion swears that he has no wish to die, but can’t come up with a reason for living either: “I have no wish to die, I promise you. I have …” His voice trailed off into uncertainty. What do I have? A life to live? Work to do? Children to raise, lands to rule, a woman to love? “You have nothing,” finished Magister Illyrio, “but we can change that.” He plucked a mushroom from the butter, and chewed it lustily. “Delicious.” The mushrooms were not poisoned of course, but it seems like a prudent measure on the part of Illyrio to make sure Tyrion was not so lost to actively wish for death (as a desperate man is hardly trustworthy).

After passing up the swan, Tyrion makes mention of his kinslaying unpleasantness, wondering how this could make him of benefit to Illyrio. Illyrio lets him know that killing Tywin is merely a “good beginning.” Tyrion feels insulted by this, letting Illyrio know that he’s a “lion still,” which Illyrio scoffs at: “You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?”

Tyrion takes this criticism well, but lets Illyrio know that Cersei and Jaime are his to kill. Illyrio tells him that he’s a hunted man, as Cersei has offered a lordship to anyone who brings her Tyrion’s head, but Illyrio claims he’d rather have a sum of gold. Tyrion tells Illyrio he can have any gold he wants, but that the Rock is his.

Illyrio confronts him on drunken admissions he said in the presence of the washerwoman, who does, in fact, know the Common Tongue. Illyrio goes over Tyrion’s options regarding the Wall and Dorne, pointing out some extreme problems with both plans. For one, Illyrio lets him know that Stannis is at the Wall, and is not the sort of many to overlook kinslaying and regicide. Of Dorne, Illyrio tells Tyrion that his Myrcella crowing plan won’t work either, as queening her will likely kill her, and there won’t be enough support outside of Dorne to raise her adequately. (As an aside, if Varys was behind Tywin’s death, which I suspect he set up, this could be seen as being 3 steps ahead of even the Dornish plot. Without Tywin, the plan to crown Myrcella falls apart as a self-destruction mechanism. By removing Tywin, it interfered with Dorne’s plans). Tyrion realizes that Illyrio is right: “He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. “Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least.”

Illyrio says that there is another way that will lead to Casterly Rock. He begins by telling a parable about the way power works in Pentos. The Prince of Pentos is raised and given all the pleasures a man could want during his tenure. That is, unless ill-luck should befall the city, in which case he is killed and a new Prince chosen. Illyrio suggests that this power dynamic is not so different in Westeros: “There is no peace in Westeros, no justice, no faith … and soon enough, no food. When men are starving and sick of fear, they look for a savior.”

He’s suggesting that Westeros requires a new savior to heal it: “A dragon.” The cheesemonger saw the look on his face at that, and laughed. “A dragon with three heads.”

[Ragnorak]

Very nice, Butterbumps. There's just a ton of stuff in this chapter.

Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl.

Tze has a post in the Foreshadowing thread that touches on this here.

She mentions the onions and Tyrion's comment about needing a cleaver to claim his rings as a possible Davos reference. The hot peppers could be a Dorne reference and the wooden bowl reminds me of Bran and the weirwood paste (which is sketchy with just a descriptionless wooden bowl.) The image of Davos and Dorne out of a Bran/Bloodraven dish has lots of possibilities.

They began with a broth of crab and monkfish, and cold egg lime soup as well.

This is a meal Tyrion shares and enjoys and the crab recalls his meal with Mormont at the Wall. Monkfish is a botton feeder that will eat anything, including apparently other monkfish, which fits with Tyrion's fallen state and family intentions. There's also his reflections on the gods and his impending trip to the place of origin of the Faith that may be relevant for the "monk" part. No idea what to make of the soup other than that they are hatching something here.

The suckling pig is the meal he didn't get to eat with his father before the Greenfork. If Aegon is Illyrio's son we have Tyrion dressed in his son's clothes sharing-- and enjoying-- the meal he was unable to enjoy with his father. There's still the suckling pig being shared with a man plotting to get him Casterly Rock contrasted with the suckling pig not shared with a Tywin who wouldn't give him a command at the Greenfork. The plum sauce also has potential given his future dealings with Plumm that also involve an element of the infidelity Fire Eater mentions.

I'd need to look up the other dishes but we've seen at least some of the others before. The swan in this case is a black swan which comes up in Arya in CoK. The three black swans she sees seem to be a contrast to the three black dogs of House Clegane. I don't recall either the Cersei swan or the wedding feast swan being a black one but I'm not certain.

The Varys exchange is quite interesting.

That was when the dwarf turned to the eunuch and said, “I’ve killed my father,” in the same tone a man might use to say, “I’ve stubbed my toe.

The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head.

“You should not have climbed that ladder,” he said reproachfully.

“I killed Shae too,” he confessed to Varys.

“You knew what she was."

“I did. But I never knew what he was."

Varys tittered. “And now you do."

Varys is dressed as a priest and the Shae murder is a confession but killing Tywin is mundane news. Varys points out that Tyrion knew what Shae was as if this is what makes killing her wrong. That says a good deal about Varys too.

I think his reproachful tone regarding the ladder climbing points against Varys wanting or planning for Tyrion to go up there. Tyrion is about to go across the Narrow Sea to be entrusted to Illyrio to meet the uber secret Aegon so I don't see a need to put on a false front in this regard. I would guess Shae was Varys's creature and having planted her with Tywin he was well positioned to manipulate things. Varys may well have had to disappear regardless of Tywin's murder (Tywin did conclude Tyrions's escape was his doing) so I'm not sure how much that changed Varys's alternate future.

The ship might suggest that Varys was planning on freeing Tyrion all along. Having a ship waiting to take Tyrion away with maybe an hour or two notice in the middle of the night could suggest planning. Varys might have one on stand by at all times just in case but I think it makes a stronger case for pre-planning.

Tyrion was out of the loop in prison but the last Stannis update I recall was Jaime remembering Tywin's reaction to learning that Stannis had sailed to parts unknown (Tywin fears Dorne.) This is after Tyrion's conviction. Illyrio knows Stannis is at the Wall. Assuming the information came from Varys it would had to have come on the same ship Tyrion did so Varys must have already known Stannis was going to the Wall or there are spies reporting directly to Illyrio. One possibility is that Sallador had one of Illyrio's ships in custody-- he comments to Davos about the large chair. This may have been used to plant a spy within Stannis's ranks. Given his position on another continent this is an impressive information network. He seems to know Stannis is victoriously at the Wall not just en route. I suppose the Red Priests are another possibility but I've seen no real hint of that other than Illyrio's using the "lord of light" phrase and having a red priest at Dany's engagement.

I think all these silent slaves being former "little birds" is probable. Illyrio seems to get a transcript of what Tyrion says and knows about the mushrooms in his pockets. He seems to have a spy network in his own home.

[greensleeves]

Great job Butterbumps!

Tyrion is really putting his all into being self-indulgently miserable. It reminds me of that old children's song: nobody likes me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat worms...

I think it's notable that he actively seeks fear to replace revulsion. It's that old Lannister coping technique/philosophy of rule that we have seen in Tywin and Cersei so many times.

Tyrion thinking about the unsullied:

I could make good use of a few hundred of mine own, he reflected. A pity I did not think of that before I became a beggar.

...moment of foreshadowing?

All the talk about Lannister scatology really made me notice how much Tyrion mentions bodily functions. Shit only gets a mention in relation to Tywin's death, but we get plenty of vomit and piss. I seem to recall a lot of piss in relation to Tyrion.

I tend to think that Varys and Illyrio didn't plan for Tyrion to kill Tywin; they couldn't have known that Jaime would make the confession when he did.

Ragnorak, thanks for all the food symbolism. Tyrion thinking that it was the best meal he'd ever had was one of the few hopeful notes in this chapter.

[Lummel]

...We get Tyrion’s version of his escape, which seems fairly calm and almost lucid and businesslike. Tyrion thinks back on his rationale in loosing the bolt: “If I had not loosed, he would have seen my threats were empty. He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms. He was rising when I killed him.” I find this extremely complex in particular. On one hand, the fact that Tyrion has learned to take no half measures is very much his father’s lesson, but the very reason he chose to confront his father is very un-Tywin-like; it was about being torn from a woman he loved, not caring she was too low-born for a Lannister. Tyrion is filled with much hate, but he can’t bear to think of Jaime, as it’s too painful...

This is Tyrion telling us that in his opinion his relationship with his father was in a kill or be killed by phase. That sense of Tyrion and Tywin being in competition with each other is something we have discussed but I do believe this is the first time that Tyrion is explicit about it.

Something that struck me was the awry nurturing, he sucks at a skin of wine (breastlike I suppose, certainly in contrast to the harder edge of a bottle) "as if it were a woman's breast". He looks up at Illyrio and sees his heavy sagging breasts and is reminded of a dead sea cow. Again there is the idea that what Tyrion wants is to be nurtured but the wine isn't wholesome milk and Illyrio isn't a beneficent mother nor a jolly land cow, at first glance he looks as though he could offer help and support but the language suggests that this won't be straight forward and necessarily to Tyrion's advantage but convoluted and twisted to his.

...Tyrion prepares himself for exploration of the manse. Within a lapis and mother-of-pearl inlaid chest, he finds clothes made for a “small boy.” The clothes are luxuriously made, though old. As I mentioned in the preceding post, the existence of such clothes in Illyrio’s manse seems unusual; why would Illyrio have kept the clothes of a small boy thusly if not a boy who was once important to him? ... These clothes, along with other clues in subsequent chapters, have led many to speculate that Illyrio may in fact be Aegon’s father, and that these boy’s clothes had once belonged to him...

I disagree slightly on the clothes despite being currently an ardent Blackfyrist. The clothes to me are fair enough proof of Aegon having been brought up for some time in Illyrio's manse, but that doesn't rule out possibilities that Aegon is not related to Illyrio. Why shouldn't a sea cow like Illyrio grow fond of a child that he's spent time together with - is he a gregor clegane?

I do think there is something else in the chapter that for me suggests that Aegon is false. And that is the run down that Tyrion gives to Illyrio of all the people who know that he was on board the ship. These things can't be kept secret. Too many people have to know.

Illyrio begins their discussion by informing Tyrion of events in the East regarding the Slave Trade and Slaver’s Bay. Tyrion asks why such things matter, and Illyrio replies with a very Varys-like answer: “the world is one great web, and a man dare not touch a single strand lest all the others tremble.” Tyrion thought he understood the big picture back in Westeros, but with Illyrio, it’s clear that the game is much bigger and played much differently...

I like that quote. The world as a great web-like system, with Varys the spider weaving and spinning. We've seen the disruption that Daenerys is causing, how different will the world look by the time we reach the end of the story?

...I think all these silent slaves being former "little birds" is probable. Illyrio seems to get a transcript of what Tyrion says and knows about the mushrooms in his pockets. He seems to have a spy network in his own home.

Good point. Honourable semi-retirement in Illyrio's manse when you get to big for the secret passages of King's Landing doesn't seem to awful.

Another ETA

I see parallels in these first two chapters with the first two tyrion chapters in AGOT. There the breakfast and the 'who's side are you on' question which is restated here although over a slightly more lavish meal.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

Tyrion thinking about the unsullied:

I could make good use of a few hundred of mine own, he reflected. A pity I did not think of that before I became a beggar.

...moment of foreshadowing?

<snip>

Tyrion seems destined to wind up with Dany (who 'bought' the last of the true Unsullied) so this could be foreshadowing. What struck me was that the Unsullied represent the ideal Lannister troops. They are perfect loyalty that can be bought with gold.

<snip>

Another ETA

I see parallels in these first two chapters with the first two tyrion chapters in AGOT. There the breakfast and the 'who's side are you on' question which is restated here although over a slightly more lavish meal.

In looking at the food I got a bit of the same impression. There's crabs, the lamb and the suckling pig which is a bit of revisiting his prior meals.

I'm also reminded of Tywin's words to Joffrey regarding a man who needs to say he is the King is no real king. Illyrio is a Cheese Lord in Tywin's worldview but he lives in opulence that puts Lannister wealth to shame. In GoT he bought the mightiest Khalasar in recent memory of 100,000 troops. Who could outbid the Lannisters for Slynt...? An argument could be made that he's the most powerful man period. Illyrio showed a humility to Viserys that Tywin would not be capable of. The meal, the bath, the featherbed, the Manse, and the slaves are all trappings of power. An Illyrio doesn't need a regal set of armor or a cold icy stare to cow others. He's even transcended the need for his own personal martial physique (though that may eventually come back to bite him.) The casual decadence he enjoys, and shares, convey a greater sense of power than any Lannister trappings. He bows to Tyrion, his position as a Magister is an honor, he has been summoned by the Prince-- all humble gestures and phrasings that understate his power rather than flaunt it.

<snip>

He tells her of his plans to raise Myrcella to queenship, hoping to create a Lannister civil war, but changes his mind and talks through the pros and cons of going to the Wall instead: “Do you think I might stand taller in black, my lady?” He filled his cup again. “What do you say? North or

south? Shall I atone for old sins or make some new ones?”

These are probably my favorite lines in this chapter. Tyrion is bedraggled with guilt, broken, full of shame and loathing, futilely seeking some form of redemption, or barring that, something to give his life some kind of meaning. He mentions that one’s sins are wiped clean when they join the Watch, which is precisely what a part of him desires: a kind of baptism to wash his crimes. He’s not talking about standing taller in black because it’s slimming, but whether he could stand less burdened having been relieved of his past crimes. He’s really struggling with the conflict between wishing for purification and hoping to go out with the most damage possible.

<snip>

I think this sums up the tone of Tyrion this chapter. He declines the bed slave and says he's done with women (a rather NW-like choice) but then goes out of his way to make her feel fear (his Dornish intent.) When she comes up at dinner with Illyrio he conveys that she performed her job and basically says not to send him anymore women. He oscillates between an apathy falling short of remorse and cruelty or inner rage that brims over. He has the sinful desire to strangle and rape the slave and the penitent desire to let a ship full of sailors bugger him across the seas. He is consumed with regret but it is too fresh and bitter to be a remorse. It is a thirst for justice or vengeance for Tysha directed at himself. Oberyn's fight with Gregor is a perfect metaphor for Tyrion's current internal struggle complete with the inner monster lashing out at innocent bystanders.

[Lummel]

...The ship might suggest that Varys was planning on freeing Tyrion all along. Having a ship waiting to take Tyrion away with maybe an hour or two notice in the middle of the night could suggest planning. Varys might have one on stand by at all times just in case but I think it makes a stronger case for pre-planning...

This is evidence that Varys intended to remove somebody from Kings Landing. We learn in Tyrion II ADWD that this was Illyrio's ship, crewed with his men. You can't have a trading ship just sitting around in a foreign harbour indefinitely. Even the Gold Cloaks would get suspicious. Tyrion is the most obvious person to be rescued, in which case Jaime's intervention was superflous and led to the downfall of House Lannister for nothing. Mind you, Varys would probably have killed Tywin anyway for exactly the same reason he killed Kevan.

...I'm also reminded of Tywin's words to Joffrey regarding a man who needs to say he is the King is no real king. Illyrio is a Cheese Lord in Tywin's worldview but he lives in opulence that puts Lannister wealth to shame...

Yes. And yet Illyrio although obviously truely wealthy, we don't know the source of his power or his money or its extent. The perfect companion to Varys, everything about him seems to be in the open yet is also hidden and obscure.

[Winterfellian]

Great job Butterbumps!

@Ragnorak, thanks for all the analysis at the food symbolism, it was a very interesting read.

Anyway. I was reading a review of ADWD and saw the old complaint about Tyrion that he was moaning too much and repeating himself too much over having killed his father and repeating "where do whores go" far too much. And I fell to wondering since we are now trembling on the verge of rereading Tyrion in ADWD together what you expected for Tyrion in that book. Because I am still puzzled by the criticisms about Tyrion's state of mind.

I am actually interested in reading what long time readers like yourself feel towards Tyrion’s arc in ADWD. I was lucky to read all 5 books in a row and I always felt that Tyrion’s state of mind is a natural progression to all that happened in ASOS. Though I realize this could be more taxing for people who had to wait years for the books.

About this chapter, something that caught my attention was the story of the Pentos’ prince:

In Pentos we have a prince, my friend. He presides at ball and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas.” Illyrio leaned forward, elbows on the table. “Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.”

To me this prince strikes me more as a figure head than an actual agency of government and is magistrates/cheesemongers like Illiryo who hold the real power. The interesting bit is that the prince is also the one who will hold the blame for mistakes for which he has little control over, like the crops, or mistakes made by magistrates, like perhaps engaging in a war they are not going to win. He’s someone to be sacrificed lightly should something go wrong, while the persons truly in charge are left unmolested and still retain their advantage positions. All and all I see parallels between this prince and Tyrion.

Inside the Lannister family dynamic Tyrion was very much like the prince of Pentos. This becomes evident if we take into consideration the events in ACOK-ASOS. Like the prince benefits greatly from his status to provide himself with pleasure so does Tyrion from his own status as a Lannister. Tyrion entered KG to become the Hand of the king, but he was mainly a figurehead because he was temporarily replacing Tywin and because the persons behind the webs were cheesemonger like figures like Littlefinger and Varys.

Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice.

When Tyrion entered KG he was somehow heralded by people and things associated with Gold, Iron and silver. Tywin Lannister and the gold of Casterly Rock was supporting his ascend into power and the iron sword from the clansmen and Bronn he enlisted himself came with him as protection. As for the silver, this is a little more farfetched but for me the silver is represented by Shae. As we noted before Shae was connected with associations related to silver many a times, particularly in that scene in the manse where Tyrion hits her.

“Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.”

We all know that it was Tyrion who shouldered the burden for the Lannister clan for all the bad things that happened after his arrival (as Tywin likely intended him to) and in ASOS they had no scruples about sacrificing him both politically and later on even physically.

Considering all this I find Tyrion’s reaction after hearing this story rather ironic:

“Remind me never to become the Prince of Pentos.”

[Punchslap]

I am actually interested in reading what long time readers like yourself feel towards Tyrion’s arc in ADWD. I was lucky to read all 5 books in a row and I always felt that Tyrion’s state of mind is a natural progression to all that happened in ASOS. Though I realize this could be more taxing for people who had to wait years for the books.

I doubt many people who follow this thread had a problem with Tyrion's arc in ADWD, but I did find it tedious. The long wait may have had something to do with it, but his journey dragged for me and his mantra (much like Jon Snow's) was grating. I'm not saying that Tyrion should not have suffered psychological trauma from what's happened in his life, but I did not find his journey in ADWD compelling (it could have been, but wasn't for me). It seems largely a matter of personal taste rather than some intrinsic issue.

[Woman of War]

I agree with Winterfellian about the natural progression of Tyrion's state of mind.

Like you I have read all five books in a row. I do not know if this makes the difference but that way I did not overburden the fifth book with so many expectations that got disappointed when I finally, finally after five years of wait started reading.

Actually I cannot really understand when so many posters In other threads criticize the character Tyrion for being whiny and full of self pity. What is he supposed to be? There is no generally accepted norm of social behaviour after having killed your father and your lover, after realizing what you did to your first love, so a little depression and misery should be ok in a situation like that. Adam Smith did not include those circumstances in his "Theory of Moral Sentiments" nor did Knigge advice his readers about the etiquette of post murder manners.. And here in ADWD it is precisely not self pity alone Tyrion feels, he realizes perfectly well the impact of what he did to Tysha.

So what do some readers expect from Tyrion at the beginning of ADWD? The jolly good fellow they found easy to enjoy at the beginning of AGOT? If the charactwr had not been seriously altered by what happened to him and what he did himself he would be an outright psychopath and Martin would be a poor writer.

I think the character Tyrion influences posters and longterm fans to react like disappointed lovers: this over the top criticism of behaviour that is actually easy to explain shows that it is not indifference but hatred that follows disappointed fascination or love. Strong words for a character that is simply fictional but the emotional reactions of some posters concerning their favorite or in that case by now least favorite character parallel the reactions towards living, breathing people. Which is ok, this is maybe what passionate fandom is, only it is not my kind of fandom. I feel no need to defend my favorite fictional character against all reason and to overburden it with attributes he or she was never meant to have while at the same time putting off really existing fellow posters, accusing them of misogyny and "not having read the books". But to each his own.

To me the believable, well written story is paramount. And here Tyrion's story has a lot to offer at the beginning of ADWD as a deconstruction of that complex personality, written as painfully as a mental vivisection. I felt so much proxy shame, proxy embarassment that it hurt - and it was meant to hurt by Martin.

Going ahead here: i liked the travelogues given by a well read character like Tyrion for their insight into Westerosi history and mythology. And I like the fact that "the spoiled rich kid" was brought down to the status of slave. So Martin has the option to rebuild the character from dirt level, to shape an altered Tyrion out of clay.

P.s.: all contributors of that thread should feel "liked" by me, actually this is the best and most intelligent thread, full of adults, the one that by now still keeps me in these forums. Thank you for allowing me to read it.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Tyrion seems destined to wind up with Dany (who 'bought' the last of the true Unsullied) so this could be foreshadowing. What struck me was that the Unsullied represent the ideal Lannister troops. They are perfect loyalty that can be bought with gold.

and a small irony contained in that: the unsullied as a unit are a thing of the past(no new ones are made)

another thing i find intresting: who get tyrion out of the barrel --> it's illyrio himself

illyrio chasties tyrio in a friendly way for the mushrooms and the mistreatment of the slave.

he also seems to be disgusted by the idea of using myrcella( he seems to avoid unneccesery violence like Varys)

(which reminds me of machiavelli "the end justifies the means" but the trueer translation would be when you do something think about the consequences while tyrion goes for the way modern people think it was meant)

tyrion also seems not to get a two lessons from illyrio : learn when the cover up might be revealing. and ruling is more duty and resposibility then right and power

[Winterfellian]

I doubt many people who follow this thread had a problem with Tyrion's arc in ADWD, but I did find it tedious. The long wait may have had something to do with it, but his journey dragged for me and his mantra (much like Jon Snow's) was grating. I'm not saying that Tyrion should not have suffered psychological trauma from what's happened in his life, but I did not find his journey in ADWD compelling (it could have been, but wasn't for me). It seems largely a matter of personal taste rather than some intrinsic issue.

I wasn't strictly speaking of Tyrion's arch, but rather his state of mind all through ADWD since I have seen many people criticize how he has become whinny or annoying in addition to valid criticisms to certain traits of his behavior. I sometimes think that fans were expecting the witty Tyrion from AGOT or the assertive politician from ACOK and got something completely different and hence they feel disappointed. This is something where the building of expectations over the years probably have a played in (It's been less than 2 years from the last book and I already have some expectations for some of my favorites :))

In terms of arch, I understand what you mean and is definitely a matter of taste. His arch is slower but he's not the only one in this. Dany and Jon are other main characters in ADWD whose arch is slower in comparison to other books, but I think this is intentional. For me Martin clearly decided to focus a lot on character development for these three. And it makes sense since we are nearing the end of the saga and I expect all three of them to play an important part at the end, for better or for worse, and the actions and decisions they take will make more sense if backed by a good character development.

[Punchslap]

I have seen many people criticize how he has become whinny or annoying in addition to valid criticisms to certain traits of his behavior.

In terms of arch, I understand what you mean and is definitely a matter of taste. His arch is slower but he's not the only one in this. Dany and Jon are other main characters in ADWD whose arch is slower in comparison to other books, but I think this is intentional

There's a definite difference between readers criticising the fact that Tyrion has to deal with his issues versus those criticising the execution; the slowness per se isn't my problem (I like Jon's arc, but not Dany's, and as you point out both are slow), but as I said above, I think it's really a matter of taste. If someone listed what happens in Tyrion's evolution in ADWD I'd probably agree that it all makes sense, but that doesn't change that I did not enjoy how it was composed in the book.

[Lummel]

...We all know that it was Tyrion who shouldered the burden for the Lannister clan for all the bad things that happened after his arrival (as Tywin likely intended him to) and in ASOS they had no scruples about sacrificing him both politically and later on even physically...

Yes, the kind of disposable figurehead who can be made the scapegoat when everything goes wrong.

For me this spins off in two directions (two opposite directions, but why not! :) ). One is the sacrifical king that is sugested in Jon's ADWD chapters (the corn king, tom barleycorn, possibly the loan from the iron bank points in that direction to) - there is power in a king's blood and the king is therefore the ultimate sacrifice to aplease the hungry, angry gods.

The second is Varys' riddle about power being a shadow on the wall. In that case the King, Prince of Penos or Hand of the King is a shadow on the wall. A figurehead who can be sacrificed when things go wrong (like football managers), but the actual power is wielded by the person who is casting the shadow - the varys' or Illyrio's of this world.

Power is a or maybe the major theme of the series. Obviously I'm a bit biased on how important this topic is in ASOIAF...as you can guess since I was part of the team that brought you learning to lead! There we saw people who were theoretically in charge trying to make actual changes, do things or just responding to circumstances - it was all about the practical difficulties of exercising power. It's interesting to have Illyrio articulating a much broader understanding about power right at the beginning of the book (first chapter after the prologue). He is describing the rabbits ears, the trappings of power, the formal ceremonial, but also that the cheesemongers of this world so long as they honour the rabbit ears get to do what they want (effectively keep slaves, turn the wider world upside down) yet when things go wrong it is the Prince (or Jon or Daenerys) who has to go.

...To me the believable, well written story is paramount. And here Tyrion's story has a lot to offer at the beginning of ADWD as a deconstruction of that complex personality, written as painfully as a mental vivisection. I felt so much proxy shame, proxy embarassment that it hurt - and it was meant to hurt by Martin...

I'm glad that we can't keep you away! I think you are very right with the proxy shame and embarassment. GRRM caught me up too with Tyrion's state of mind, and Jon's and Daenerys'. I suspect that is one reason why ADWD is less popular - it is just not very nice being in the minds of these troubled, dishearted even depressed people!

...another thing i find intresting: who get tyrion out of the barrel --> it's illyrio himself...

tyrion also seems not to get a two lessons from illyrio : learn when the cover up might be revealing. and ruling is more duty and resposibility then right and power

Yes Illyrio is all about actual power. We have that fantastic contrast between him and Viserys in AGOT. Illyrio just stroking his beard while Viserys is talking wildly about all the things he will do.

Something else about this chapter:

"Your brother wears the white cloak, so you are heir by all the laws of Westeros" p29 (hardback)

This is a fact. It always was a fact. This is the first time it is so plainly stated. It wasn't until the beginning of ASOS that Tyrion could actually say that to Tywin and even then he just accepted (unhappily) Tywin's denial of that fact. Really shows just how blinkered Tyrion's outlook was.

[Kittykatknits]

I am actually interested in reading what long time readers like yourself feel towards Tyrion’s arc in ADWD. I was lucky to read all 5 books in a row and I always felt that Tyrion’s state of mind is a natural progression to all that happened in ASOS. Though I realize this could be more taxing for people who had to wait years for the books.

I read both Game and Clash for the first time in early 2000 and then had to wait several weeks for Storm of Swords to arrive in the mail. How sad that I still remember opening the box from Amazon with the hardcover edition after all these years. I continued my trend of pulling all-nighters to finish that book as quickly as I could. At the end, I was glad that Tyrion wasn't going to die, depressed over his scene with Jaime, and rather mixed when I read the section where he killed his father and Shae. I knew he would be in an emotionally and mentally bad place afterwards but didn't have much in the way of expectations beyond that. Since Varys was helping with the rescue, I felt safe predicting Tyrion was on his way to Dany and was looking forward to reading more on that development in a few years, summer child that I was.

So, five years later and Feast came out. I knew the five year gap was gone and the book would not feature all characters. But, I was hoping for something exciting anyways and instead I got Brienne's road to nowhere, the Ironborn, and Dorne. To say I was disappointed is to put it mildly but after five years and Storm, I had expectations and none of them were fulfilled. Over the years, I've had time to absorb the book and enjoy it a bit more but it'll never be a favorite. Then at the end, was the cruelest treat of all. Dance would be out in a year and bring back Tyrion, Dany, and Jon. Well, a year passed and nothing. For awhile, I had myself convinced that Martin had given up on the series and the pessimist in me decided that the tv show was a way for Martin to give the fans something without having to actually complete the series.

Finally, after six years I got Dance in the mail and read it a week or so after it came out. Tyrion's state wasn't a surprise for me and his lines wondering where whores go doesn't bother me, Martin seems to have taken a liking to doing that with many of his characters. My feelings about Tyrion as a character were not really altered much by anything that happened in that book even though I dislike many of his actions. But, his emotional state seemed appropriate for where he was at. The big mistake I made with Dance was going in to it with the same expectations that I did with Feast. I had hoped that Tyrion would actually meet Dany and that didn't happen. Instead, I got another travelogue and a storyline that didn't compel me. To be perfectly honest, I was flat out disappointed with every Essos-related storyline, not just Tyrion's. I knew Martin struggled with the Mereen knot and I could tell reading the book. The events in the North and at the wall made for much more compelling reading, at least for me. I went in to the book thinking Tyrion would meet up with Dany and Dany would be on her way to Westeros at least some time before the end of the book. Yet, I got left with the feeling that Martin solved his knot by bringing characters to Dany rather than getting Dany to where she needed to be. I waited eleven years for a riverboat ride, floppy ears, and the boy who was on fire.

So, I didn't find my initial reading of Tyrion's story in Dance to be engaging or compelling in any way. But, not because he was depressed or failed to be sufficiently witty. The story itself didn't grab me, just like everything else in Essos. I don't particularly care about Mereen or the stone men or the Tattered Prince. I care about Westeros; everything else feels like the sideshow. That's my takeaway from Tyrion in Dance. Now, it is very possible that I'll come to think of Dance the same way I now do with Feast and can enjoy it for the character development itself. But, I'm not there yet.

But I'm just one reader so YMMV.

[Blisscraft]

Excellent posts, everyone! BB, a superior job on the ASoS and the first ADwD chapter. :bowdown:

The Drunkard ( and I don't mean the twisted tree near Molestown)

The "drunkard" is a manifestation of the "Trickster" archetype. Radin describes this type as from the earliest and least developed period of life wherein his physical appetites dominate his behavior and his mentality is that of an infant. The Trickster constantly seeks gratification and although can be seen as a comic figure, like Falstaff, he just as easily can turn cruel, cynical and unfeeling. The Trickster struggles with will over self control and like Tantalus can make a fool of himself and wind up cast out of Olympus and forever trying to slake an unquentiable thirst because of his misdeeds.

This applies fairly well to Tyrion in this first chapter. He doesn't flee in a boat across the narrow sea. He drinks his way across. (Not like that, Lummel!) He's kept below deck and not permitted to see where he's going. Because of this, Tyrion can't tell day from night (like Jonah in the belly of the whale). Once released from the "womb" by Illyrio as noted above, he is not confronted by a whale, but a great sea cow. It is an ugly birth.

Tyrion's attraction to wine is more significant symbolically than it appears. Grapes are the source for wine. They must be separated from their vines, mashed and fermented until they transform into a "spirit." There is a "double" transformation aspect: grapes to wine, drink to drinker. Intoxication may result from imbibing, creating in the drinker a release from duty, cares and new communion with the spirit. Also, as noted above, this is a religious experience that extends from Dionysian cults to the present day mass. The body and blood of the god is a sacrificed and we, if partaking, are the initiates into the sublime.

All initiates begin must with submission to higher authority, as Tyrion does in this journey. From here on we will watch him move from containment and then ultimately liberation. But, as the Grateful Dead sang, Tyrion will perhaps echo, "what a long strange trip it's been."

[Punchslap]

So, I didn't find my initial reading of Tyrion's story in Dance to be engaging or compelling in any way. But, not because he was depressed or failed to be sufficiently witty. The story itself didn't grab me, just like everything else in Essos. I don't particularly care about Mereen or the stone men or the Tattered Prince. I care about Westeros; everything else feels like the sideshow. That's my takeaway from Tyrion in Dance. Now, it is very possible that I'll come to think of Dance the same way I now do with Feast and can enjoy it for the character development itself. But, I'm not there yet.

Nicely said. I suspect the Feast for Dragons material will seem a lot stronger once the series is complete and it can be appreciated in context.

[Lummel]

Tyrion II ADWD

All quotes refer to the hardback first edition which has the same pagination in the UK and USA editions.

Overview

This chapter reminded me a little of Tyrion II AGOT. Again the road trip. There through the North, here the hinterlands of Pentos and then Andalos. Tyrion and Illyrio don't arrive anywhere, they just travel and talk. This isn't to everybodys' taste I've noticed, but I find them very interesting (my precious). There is a lot to pick over in this chapter. I've laid out a few titbits that caught my eye, but swarm in my fellow crows and see what else takes your fancy!

Observations

• “No man must see you leave the city, as no man saw you enter.” “No man except...” p71 – This is realistic world and a tough one to keep secrets in.
  
• Travel is dangerous. Autumn storms, pirates on seas and rivers, stone men etc
  
• “Tell me...why should a magister of Pentos give three figs who wears the crown in Westeros? “Where is the gain for you in this venture, my lord?”p72 Good question.
  
• In Tyrion II AGOT the wealth of the Lannister was suggested by the pepper he had added to the stew, in Tyrion II ADWD the wealth of Illyrio is demonstrated on a really grand culinary scale.
  
• “secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires” p75
  
• Tywin was Aerys II's friend...”a friend of his youth who had grown arrogant and overproud” - an interesting detail...
  
• Tyrion wonders why the Valyrians went no further west than Dragonstone p76 (as have many readers!)
  
• “Sleep opened before him like a well, and he threw himself into it with a will and let the darkness eat him up.” - the wish for oblivion, maybe death
  

Analysis

Andalos

Woman of War picked up on this in ASOS. So Tyrion's journey is taking him back to the source of the faith, which takes him also back to his childhood and his early ambition to become High Septon. Later Hugor Hill, the man made king by the Father, will become his pseudonym. I'm not sure how much, or quite what to make of this. The journey back to the source and adopting the name seem significant. There is something of a pilgrimage and a quest about Tyrions and, as Lykos was saying, Quentyn's journey. It is not just travel there is a search for meaning and purpose in their lives. Quentyn's is framed by a fairy tale – the Frog prince, Tyrion's..? This in contrast to tyrion's road trip in Tyrion II AGOT which emphasised his leisure and lack of purpose in the world. But the significant namechanges and abrupt changes in status do link in to Blisscraft's comments about initiation above.

Blackfyres Ahoy!

“Some contracts are writ in ink and some in blood. I say no more” p78

“Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Malys the monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of the Blackfyres” p78

The boy's clothes in the last chapter cued Butterbumps! On to Aegon. Here we have Blackfyre talk, the marriage to Serra - “I found her in a Lycene pillow house”. Found is an ambiguous verb – it could be suggesting that Illyrio was looking for her, equally that he chanced upon her.

Whatever has happened the fog of mystery gathers about the few slim facts we've been offered. The breach of the Golden Company's contract is a big deal – it's news even in Westeros and mentioned several times in AFFC.

The motivation of Illyrio and Varys is unknown, the temptation to draw a Blackfyre line to tie it all up together is a powerful one ;)

Tyrion dreams

“I dreamed about the Queen...I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons” p76

“That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing everytime he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise his second head was weeping” p81

No comment ;)

The Valyrian Sphinx

So back in Tyrion I ACOK a pair of Valyrian Sphinxes were in the room that the small council met in. Here the sphinx is specially taken as an omen for Daenerys. Who I remember does regard herself increasingly as something of a monster (“if they are monsters then so am I”) and it could be that the Blood of the Dragons means that she is not exactly or completely human. The tie here to the Oedipus myth is stronger. Oedipus killed his father and then was questioned by the sphinx. Maester warned Sam that the Sphinx was the riddle and not the riddler. Alleras is too easy an answer, Daenerys and her Valyrian heritage and all that might entail is still mysterious enough to be a riddle.

[1234567]

fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them

This again seems to hint at Tyrion and Barristan taking the Dragons etc to Westeros and siding with Aegon.

Hugeor Hill is interesting as Hill is the bastard name for the Westerlands and the later choice of name by Tyrion also reflects back to his father's treatment of him and refusal to treat him as a true son.

[Blisscraft]

"The road to excess leads to the palace of wisdom." Blake

Mushrooms - Not that I have any experience with the psychedelic aspect of ingesting mushrooms, but some varieties do possess an intoxicating effect. We know, that Tyrion recongnizes this particular variety as a "poison" mushroom, "delicious but deadly," yet the quantity ingested may effect the level of "poison." Death may be the result or mystical visions.

Tyrion finds the mushrooms after he has emptied the prized flagon of Redwyne's strongwine. The flagon slips from his hand and rolls across the yard. As he pushes himself off the bench, he sees seven mushrooms growing up out of a cracked paving tile. The mushrooms are pale white with speckles and red ribs as dark as blood. The mushrooms are the same color as a weirwood or Jon's Ghost. Also, the dark red color, like blood, reflects the dark red of the wine he has been drinking. No more "Arbor golds" for Tyrion.

Ragnorak mentioned Hamlet before, and I am reminded at this point that Hamlet says, "Let all my thoughts be bloody or be nothing worth. . ." and "the readiness is all. . .:"

Tyrion upon finding the mushrooms acknowleges that because of their number, seven, it is a message from the Seven. This is a part of his intiation.

It's interesting that at the end of the first chapter, Illyrio confronts Tryion with their discovery, but does not take them from Tyrion.

Sorry about going back a bit, I'll comment on the next chapter soon.