Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Uncat]

No need to bow. My writing made m guessing look like knowing which it isn't. It's more a mixture of intuition and observation. Bad habit of a PR job, I'm affraid :0(

The Priapus fit's well. Tyrion is preocupied a lot with his cock in both his function. That makes that part of him apear overdimensioned and out of proportion.

[Lummel]

Oh well if you are a PR person that explains it ;)

[Ragnorak]

I don't think that Tyrion still wants to be a septon.

A relic of my boyhood. I knew I would not make a knight, so I decided to be High Septon. That crystal crown adds a foot to a man’s height. I studied the holy books and prayed until I had scabs on both my knees, but my quest came to a tragic end. I reached that certain age and fell in love.

Tyrion claims that when he was 13 he was doing all he could to become septon (same way as Bran was preparing to be knight and Sansa lady) and only meeting Tysha stopped him. I think that he is either lying or at least exaggerating greatly.

I can see how the idea that Tysha derailed his planned path to High Septon seems off. I don't have any issues with a 7 or 9 year old Tyrion wanting to be High Septon or even that notion lingering in his head for a while afterwards. I always took this as his first love/first sexual experience making that course unthinkable afterwards rather than actively crushing a dream. I put more emphasis on the "I reached that certain age" than I did on "fell in love." You are correct though that he is directly attributing his forsaking religious office to the Tysha experience. I suppose that would add another falling from grace angle to it.

I like Woman of War's thoughts on it. Tywin taking Tyrion's birth and Joanna's death seriously as a judgement from the gods is worth exploring. He's always put Lannisters ahead of everyone else and avenged attacks upon his House so Tyrion's dwarfism and his childbirth murder of Joanna is a curse upon Tywin's worldview that puts his own value system at odds with itself. For what it matters I could imagine a scenario where Tywin approves. If "Tywin's Curse" becoming a Septon reflected positively on his lordly image and he personally felt that such a path was punishment or atonement for Tyrion's killing Joanna at birth he might approve-- but that's all 'ifs' in a hypothetical.

Uncat, I get all your pissing references except the bonding. I don't think pissing is a bonding experience for Tyrion and Illyrio here. I understand the concept (which I think is more applicable to young/adolescent men) but I don't even have a "too much information" story to relate to it. Given Tyrion's outsider status growing up I doubt he does either.

ETA:

I want to throw something out there and see what people think.

Butterbumps had a great thread on LF and Varys a while ago. In it Tze had an interesting post comparing Varys and Bloodraven that has always stuck out in my mind. Can a similar comparison be made between Illyrio and Littlefinger?

This is only half formed in my head so I don't have an exhaustive list or any specific quotes to compare. Both are men that primarily exercise power through money though both occasionally directly play people. LF more so that we see but Illyrio personally manipulates Viserys and Tyrion on screen and must have had an encounter with Selmy off screen plus the power players we never see in Pentos-- like the list of people at Dany's engagement.

Both are of low birth. LF aspired to marry Lysa for power and Illyrio did manage to marry the cousin of the Prince of Pentos. During Feast we see LF arranging marriages with money to advance an agenda the parties to the marriage are unaware of. This is essentially what Illyrio was doing with Dany when we first see him in GoT. Both are players not viewed as threats by a martial Westerosi society. LF had no land or vassals to speak of so was never considered dangerous and Tywin lumps Illyrio's ilk into the harmless category of cheesemongers with spice soldiers. Illyrio started as a sellsword of sorts unlike LF though it may be a parallel to LF's father or grandfather.

I can also see a potential comparison between Dany and Sansa in that Illyrio mentions his lust for Dany and how he used a bed slave to distract him until the madness passed while LF seems to be fixated on Sansa despite his plans to use her in a fairly similar scheme to Illyrio's Dany plot. How similar or different is Illyrio to Littlefinger? Is there something deeper here or are the similarities only surface level and coincidental?

[Uncat]

Oh well if you are a PR person that explains it ;)

Yepp, exageration is my second name and black really dresses me (really, it does), though I'm not blond and drive no Porsche.

Ragnorack, I got carried away there. The scene in the show may have played into it, too. The thing is, that there is this strange balance between it being a very intimate thing but done while sharing thoughts with someone else. It has a sexual component because of the body parts involved but yet again, it is not sexual (at least ordinarily), because that part is used for its mundaine function. And then it has a connotation of being a situation of frankness: People literaly need to relax and let down their pants for it to work. The inversion is a beloved theme in TV shows: One guy can't pee because of the situation, the other one creates either willingly or unwillingly. That train of thoughts ticked me off.

But the underlaying reason is, that certain characters are charterized by certain recuring refferences and motivs (how much, I only understood thanks to the posts in this thread and the Arya thread). And suddenly I reallized just how often Tyrion deals with his bladder, either thinking about emptiing it or just doing it. He is running and peeing as if to mark his way. And I still think, his piss from the Wall has some actuall forshadowing quality of some kind. May it be, that it is about marking the Wall as a point, where he will return to eventually and take a stand. Maybe it is important, that he was together with a supposed Targ, when he did it. May it be, that is to mark that meeting of two future leader in the endgame.I don't know :dunno: But I am very sure, that this piss is a piss to remember. (now I'm done with it. Promiss) :leaving:

An ETA on Ragnorak's ETA

Ragnorak, the comparison is an interesting point. Though the similarity might also stem from characteristic of the game of thrones, that it is kind of a three dimensional chess.

The obviouse level is that of the obviouse players playing by the rules of Westerosi Lords. They use power, politics and armies as levers. Then there are the players like Illyrio and Littlefinger and maybe the Iron Bank who play those players using money and information as much more powerfull levers.

And beyond that is the level, where the final conflict brews, the level of Bloodraven, the Red Priests maybe and who ever else is there playing a very slow and long game and slowly changing the board on which the others are playing.

But who am I telling this... Anyway, Illyrio and LF play on the same level using the same techniques. Or, the other way round: They are the ones defining the second level, where players are played and GRRM tells us that by designing them in similar ways.

Yet another ETA

On the mushrooms, just another hint on an Old Gods connection is the way, they grow: Like a minature Weirwood Groove, which also always seem to grow in circles (there was a fun argument about those trees really being overgrown mushrooms someplace, but I can't remeber where it was, Heresy xx, I suppose)

[Lummel]

I agree very much on the frankness, it's a gesture without pretence or social nicety, you can't dress it up. I do agree it's a motif (I think that's the right literary term) with Tyrion.

Lykos mentioned the wedding piss in ASOS, which for me is a golden moment that cuts a stream through the theatre of the church wedding and the pretentious feast of Joffrey and Maegaery.

Perhaps overall Tyrion has something of that function in the book, to cut through the crap and see things as they are? (obviously this would be second nature seeing as he'd be used to the old Lannister Scatology)!

The mushrooms...I don't know. I agree on the Bloodraven connection and the seven association. That all makes sense. The numbers, the colours, growing in a clump. But it just feels like one of those adventure gamebooks I read when I was small, you enter a rooms and there's an object that you can pick up and take with you and you do because the author is taking the trouble to describe the object therefore it must be useful. You know, it's feels crude. I know I'm complaining about potential authorial crudity after discussing the toilet habits of the lannisters, :laugh:

OK a more serious objection. Can Bloodraven see or gain intelligence in Pentos - can that plausibly be part of the weirnet? Then why does Bloodraven want to give Tyrion poisonous mushrooms? Is he foreseeing that he will use them to make good his escape at the end of the book - is his path really that predetermined? Or does he want Tyrion to say farewell to this faithless world (adieu, cruel world :crying: ), which is a bit more interesting?

[Woman of War]

Wait, let me get this straight -

Has this been discussed in some heresy threads and I simply did not follow properly...

Bloodraven as the Lord of Rhizome, weaving his weirwood web under the earth and under the sea, ooh ooh...

Kind of allover or better allunder grassroot revolution intelligence undermining the vile machinations of men? Are there weirwoods in Essos? Some green ideas here. When the last tree is cut down.......you will realize that you can't eat money or shit gold. Ahem I enjoyed the pissing analogies.

[Blisscraft]

Lykos mentioned the wedding piss in ASOS, which for me is a golden moment that cuts a stream through the theatre of the church wedding and the pretentious feast of Joffrey and Maegaery.

Oh Lummel, you make me laugh! You're such a naughty fellow.

[Lummel]

But, but, it's a moment of release in the middle of the narrative tension ;)

[Blisscraft]

But, but, it's a moment of release in the middle of the narrative tension ;)

Indeed! :rofl:

[Uncat]

Wait, let me get this straight -

Has this been discussed in some heresy threads and I simply did not follow properly...

Bloodraven as the Lord of Rhizome, weaving his weirwood web under the earth and under the sea, ooh ooh...

Kind of allover or better allunder grassroot revolution intelligence undermining the vile machinations of men? Are there weirwoods in Essos? Some green ideas here. When the last tree is cut down.......you will realize that you can't eat money or shit gold. Ahem I enjoyed the pissing analogies.

That discussion was sometime in spring last year. The idea was, that the Weirwoods are actually some kind of fungus: the only visible part of a gigantic organism which would look like a network of roots holding together all of Westeros. I think nobody really took it serious. It was just such a fun idea. It was kicked of by how the Weirwoods seem to grow in small circular groves.

I agree very much on the frankness, it's a gesture without pretence or social nicety, you can't dress it up. I do agree it's a motif (I think that's the right literary term) with Tyrion.

Lykos mentioned the wedding piss in ASOS, which for me is a golden moment that cuts a stream through the theatre of the church wedding and the pretentious feast of Joffrey and Maegaery.

Perhaps overall Tyrion has something of that function in the book, to cut through the crap and see things as they are? (obviously this would be second nature seeing as he'd be used to the old Lannister Scatology)!

Yepp, think so, too. That is one of the big differences in the pictures GRRM paints of Tyrion and Tywin. Tywin is connected to that freudian connection between riches and fecis (to use another term for once). He produces riches and is quite openhanded about them (Freud's pleasure in letting it go). He shows them (Edit:the riches, of course) off and uses them to elevate himself and armour himself with. Tyrion on the other hand has much less of that connection. Though rooting in bodily output, the pee-pee connection underlines his outsider status and his power to see or cut through the crap.

The mushrooms...I don't know. I agree on the Bloodraven connection and the seven association. That all makes sense. The numbers, the colours, growing in a clump. But it just feels like one of those adventure gamebooks I read when I was small, you enter a rooms and there's an object that you can pick up and take with you

You mean, it is the same thing as with Ice? There is a sword, which was broken and now everybody waits for it to be reforged because it is the thing you would expect.

Btw., on that. In my other life I happened to get into a professional discussion between welders on how remake an old, broken diver knife of great emotional value. Turns out, there is no way. The only way to remake a blade, is to destroy it completly and forge a new one from scratch. That new one IS a new one. The only properties it will inherit from the old blade are those that are embedded in the steel alloy used (edit: but non of those, which the craft of the smith created, like e.g. a magic edge). Every other property would stems from the forging process and depends on the knowledge of the smith (edit: In LOTR, who reforges the broken blade are the Elves who still have the knowledge, which created the original sword and while in the film they weld the pieces together, in the book the sword is really reforged and thus is a new blade with a new name - Narsil becomes Anduril). There is no way to mend a blade. Once it is broken, it is broken. All you can do about it, is to weld the pieces and hang it on some wall.

OK a more serious objection. Can Bloodraven see or gain intelligence in Pentos - can that plausibly be part of the weirnet? Then why does Bloodraven want to give Tyrion poisonous mushrooms? Is he foreseeing that he will use them to make good his escape at the end of the book - is his path really that predetermined? Or does he want Tyrion to say farewell to this faithless world (adieu, cruel world :crying: ), which is a bit more interesting?

:shrugg:

Some edits for spelling and clarity

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - Have been thinking about your ETA (and trying not to hurt myself). Perhaps we should discuss a couple of basic game theory principles with regard to your comparison; that is what kind of game is each player playing? Do we have a player playing a zero sum game like poker where one player takes all or tic tac toe, or a game which requires cooperation like the stag hunt or the prisoners' dilemma or something else?

I am certainly no expert when it comes to game theory. However, one of the obvious thing about the books is that there are many games played and players. Illyrio is playing some kind of game of cooperation (a non zero sum game). Whereas, Littlefinger seems to be engaged in a zero sum game where he winds up taking all or something more in the chaos-creating-psychotic-bastard type (my appellation).

One of the things that seems to be driving this "pissing contest" is the need to win not the prize. This changes the dynamic considerably as it is ego driven, especially in the case of Little Finger, but is may be a part of Illyrio/Varys as well.

There is a certain cumpulsiveness in the ego driven desire to win. It becomes an addiction or is a disease of the brain (like OCD). With an addiction, the addict tries to recreate the pure feeling of the first or best high. In so doing, it overtakes the soul and ultimately fits Einstein's definition of "nsanity: doing the some thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft -- the Game Theory is an interesting angle. If we are to believe Cersei the Game of Thrones is a zero sum game. Littlefinger seems interested in "winning" indifferent to the actual prize. His pieces are more like checkers where they are all equally disposable and the object is to be the last one standing. Varys and Illyrio are playing chess where they have a specific king that needs to be protected and set up for victory. Dany is the pawn that made it to the end of the board and became a queen. She is a far more valuable piece now but still no substitute for the king. In that sense they are very different players.

The Prisoner's Dilemna is an interesting way to look at Tyrion. As a prisoner he always made the "wrong" choice. He chose to trust and made the all or nothing bet instead of the safe bet. For a man who claims to never bet against his family he actually does. Bronn and Oberyn are the all or nothing Prisoner's Dilemna bets vs the safe bets of waiting for Tywin at the Eyrie or trusting in Tywin's Wall option at KL. Here he is again betting on Dany (and Illyrio) over himself and Myrcella-- a little less clear than his earlier two bets but still betting against his family on multiple levels.

In the Varys/Bloodraven case there are a lot of things that, especially when looked at together, seem to indicate an intentional contrast on Martin's part. Sansa was smuggled out of KL on a boat by LF and given a bastard name and a fake identity as LF's daughter. Tyrion is smuggled out by boat as well to an Illyrio with a good deal of parental imagery and gets a bastard name as well. Some of that seems to be parallels in Tyrion/Sansa but LF and Illyrio play the same roles in those parallels. The similarities are there but do they rise to the level of an intentional compare/contrast by Martin?

And if so, given Tyrion's history with Littlefinger, what are we to make of that?

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - Love it! There are characters that are "wild cards." Tyrion is one, as I think Sansa will be. Dany is the biggest wild card of all. As Lummel noted above, and others, too, no one thought Dany would survive the Dothraki, let alone hatch the dragons eggs which were thought to be pertified and beyond life.

As for Bloodraven, I don't know. . . really. I don't. One thing I do think about it (him) is that it (he) is part of the root system and everything that suggests: the origin, foundation, the basis. However, I don't think that it (he) is the whole system. Since this is a Tryion thread, I won't proceed with further explanation.

[the Scorpion Knight]

And if so, given Tyrion's history with Littlefinger, what are we to make of that?

that illyrio is going to fight LF or rather thast he' going to be a part of his downfall

[Lummel]

Ragnorak - Have been thinking about your ETA (and trying not to hurt myself). Perhaps we should discuss a couple of basic game theory principles with regard to your comparison; that is what kind of game is each player playing? Do we have a player playing a zero sum game like poker where one player takes all or tic tac toe, or a game which requires cooperation like the stag hunt or the prisoners' dilemma or something else?...

Cersei we know plays zero/sum "you win or you lose"

The perspective given by Illyrio's story of the Prince of Pentos is completely different - to win is to loose. The only way to really win is not to be seen to win or even to be seen to play!

Illyrio is more right than Cersei. Cersei can't win. As the mother of a king fortune's wheel will turn downward as her son grows older even without somebody challenging her. To win is to lose.

What about King Bob? It was zero sum on the Trident, but he won a life that he didn't want. Winning was losing.

As far as I know there is a difference in the results you get if people play the prisoners dilemma once or repeatedly, which reflects the difference in game strategies of the starks and the lannisters. Stitching the other prisoner up is fine if you can walk away and never see them again, on the other hand with winter coming a cooperative strategy pays out over time...

[Uncat]

Lummel, I love it! Now, The inversion would be: To stay in the game is to win, as long as you don't play the zero summ game. It actually is, what worked quite well for Europe between the War of Thirty Years and WW I. Wars were waged to change the balance between the main powers but never to get it all. Because it was a co-operative game and all the players had the basic agreement not to overturn the board. The Thirty Years War was a thing, non of the rulers wanted to repeat. WW I and the years following it, changed that game into the zero summ game, Hitler played.

Getting back to Westeros. The Game of Thrones as nobles usualy play it, is a co-operativ game. Sure, people get hurt, wars are fought, villages burnt and all those nasty side effects. But as a whole, a system like that in Westeros only works when the game is not played to win, but only to become the leading player. That is the reason why, while witnessing the war in the Riverlands, one always has the feeling, that this war is worse the the wars people suffered before. The game is getting out of hand.

When you win, you loose, because it is impossible to win. This because the only way to win the game of thrones is the Tywin way. This is basicaly, what Jamie tells the bookish - what's his name? - boy in ADWD. The boy relates the Bracken-Blackwood conflict which plays out like those conflicts do in a functioning society with a ruling nobel class. Then Jaime points out, that there is Tywins way to solve things and to win completly. But that ultimatly means to break the system. And on the scale of the realm, this means complete breakdown and destruction of the system.

When Cersei tells Ned, that "you win or you die", most readers including myself took that to be the ground rule offered by GRRM via Cersei. But it is not. It is Cerceis misinterpretation.

You were very right Blisscraft, we need to take a closer look on how the game is really played. It seems as if, what we witness, is the game derailing, rather then evolving where Westeros is concerned.

On a related matter:

When Illyro says, that the color of the dragon does not really matter, this could have a second meaning. It could be the author actually telling, that the color is all important, not for the game played by the Lords in Westeros and Illyrio and Varis, maybe, but for the larger game involving Bloodraven, Stark, Children and the White Walker. Maybe, the color of the Dragon and his/her pureness will matter for the White Walkers storyline in some way. Because if it does, them the Game of Thrones would actually be the one thing connecting all the levels of the story.

Oh, and maybe even on the top level game where most people think that it will be "us or the Others", the best option will be not to win, but to keep playing.

[the Scorpion Knight]

@ uncat you know that BR coat of arms was a WHITE dragon?

[Uncat]

Actually not. I know more or less, what happens in the novellas, but never got a copy of those anthologies in my hands. A white dragon, you say? So he is the colorles Dragon, the über-dragon so to say? Or is he the one who has the duty to fill the whole, which was left, when both black and red Dragons were gone...? Or is it just to say, that the color does not matter? But to him it mattered a great deal as he took sides in the Blackfyre rebellions

[Ragnorak]

Tyrion III (DwD)

Summary

Tyrion awakens to find Illyrio's seat empty and the magister outside talking with two strangers. Tyrion is his sarcastic self seasoned with the bitterness of his self loathing that we've seen in the last two chapters. We learn the two men are Duck the knight and Haldon the halfmaester and that the potential dangers on the road require them to set off as soon as possible so Illyrio will not be going with them. On the road the two men tease Tyrion with some old ghost stories. They provide a flavor of the land for the readers and serve as a bit of an icebreaker for the characters. Afterwards they're willing to tell Tyrion about the contents of the chest and Duck relays his life story.

They arrive at the boat and we get a glimpse of the cast of characters Tyrion will be travelling with. Griff is surprised to see Tyrion and has him sent to the cabin where he reads Illyrio's letter explaining Tyrion's presence. Illyrio has included his true identity and the fact that he's killed Tywin. Griff questions Tyrion's value to Dany as a kingslayer and betrayer and Tyrion points out that the king was on Dany's throne and that he knows how his family thinks as well as the character of the lords in Westeros. Griff agrees to take him as far as Volantis and further if he proves his worth.

Observations

“Pissing is the least of my talents. You ought to see me shit.”

“Terrifying. I may well piss my breeches.”

Lord Tywin was sitting on a privy, so I put a crossbow bolt through his bowels to see if he really did shit gold.

Plenty of material to continue this conversation.

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.” Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you.

Illyrio has known this boy for some time and is clearly fond of him.

“Good fortune,” Illyrio called after them. “Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra’s hands.”

That there will be a wedding is new information for Tyrion I believe. If the wedding is to be to Dany that is certainly an enlightening puzzle piece.

One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry.

“What did you do to her?” Duck asked.

“I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them.”

This makes perfect sense to us having been inside Tyrion's head all these years. I think Duck provides some outside objectivity to make this feel more cruel.

Griff’s cloak was made from the hide and head of a red wolf of the Rhoyne.

After the animals had been tended to, the riders shared a simple supper of salt pork and cold white beans, washed down with ale. Tyrion found the plain fare a pleasant change from all the rich food he had eaten with Illyrio.

Another shared meal.

There seems to be potential in Duck's life story on many levels. It is a case of the Smith defeating the Warrior or becoming the Warrior. There is the blacksmith father and the lord father as comparison's to Tyrion's father. The lord's son taking the sword is reminiscent of Tyrion's Lannister attitude toward the bearskin back in GoT.

Tyrion turned to Young Griff and gave the lad his most disarming smile. “Blue hair may serve you well in Tyrosh, but in Westeros children will throw stones at you and girls will laugh in your face."

Is this good advice or more in the spirit of a "sharp lesson?" I suppose it could be both.

Young Griff is growing up and living among the river people who make up a third of Dorne as Tyrion observed when he met Oberyn. There are strong connections to the Seven and the river gods of Dorne just from where he was raised in exile.

Analysis

Illyrio and Haldon are talking in a language Tyrion does not know. That has a hiding in plain sight feel to it but we can infer that Illyrio is conveying Tyrion's worth. “He pisses well, at least” seems consistent with Illyrio praising him. Haldon's questions about dragons also seem to indicate that Illyrio was praising his knowledge. It could be that Illyrio was conveying positive attributes that a maester would value to the maester and had a similarly specifically crafted sales pitch the Griff the lord in his letter we see at the end of the chapter. The dragon knowledge itself is worth pondering. We know Illyrio has friends in the Red Priests from the one at Dany's engagement to Drogo. Moqorro seems to have a good bit of knowledge about the Valyrian horn when he's with Victarion. Illyrio seems to be sending Citadel-like dragon knowledge to Dany and not magic-like dragon knowledge. There could be huge implications to this or it might not matter. Some have speculated that there are more eggs or a dragon horn in the chests Illyrio is sending and the lack of "magical" advisors stood out to me.

The banter between Haldon and Tyrion on dragons offers an amusing commentary as well. The "book"--coincidentally called The Dance of Dragons-- says that it was Vhagar but the account from an individual's point of view who was there claims it was Syrax. The surrounding circumstantial information helps confirm the truth. I suspect Martin was having a bit of fun.

I think Tyrion figures out who Jon Connington is by the end of the chapter. He has Illyrio's odd faith in a sellwsord, Duck's hint of being a knight, the ability to read and read well from the lack of moving his lips, as well as his sense of honor. He also has the red hair, the Golden Company connection, and the knowledge that Illyrio expected Dany to die and had little faith in the venal Viserys.

“Please her? Has Illyrio taken leave of his senses? Why does he imagine that Her Grace would welcome the service of a self-confessed kingslayer and betrayer?”

A fair question, thought Tyrion, but what he said was, “The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

Comparing the two Tyrion's response is more in line with a sellsword's value system whereas Griff's question stems from the value system of a lord concerned with a code of honor. I think he guesses at Connington based on this line.

This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs ... winged lions.

A griffon is a winged lion (with some eagle thrown in.) How much of the rest Tyrion puts together is questionable. Young Griff has clearly been hidden for years, he heard the marriage comment from Illyrio, he knows when Connington supposedly died. He will ponder this more later but he seems to have gone a long way in putting the pieces together already. In general he is far more like the clever Tyrion that was absent throughout Storm.

The individual tales of the Shrouded Lord, the Pirates of Dagger Lake, etc are probably worth taking a closer look at. The road and the wonders and Tyrion's desire to travel to Essos that Tywin funneled down the drain probably deserves some attention too-- especially given that piss and shit goes down those drains.

[Lummel]

I'll post something proper later :)