Rereading Tyrion

[Winter's Knight]

We also see the development of gambling in the Game of Thrones. The dagger at the center of the accusations changed hands through gambling. The shadowskin cloak was won by Tyrion gambling. Cat's capture of Tyrion in the first place was a huge gamble. Littlefinger's claiming the dagger was Tyrion's was another major gamble that almost backfired on him last chapter. Here Tyrion even thinks "And now to roll the dice." I wonder if this idea of gambling is another theme to keep an eye on. Tyrion won't make it back to Kings Landing until the next book where he will directly interact with Littlefinger and Varys where we'll have more fertile ground for comparing players. In the interim, let's keep an eye out to see if and how fortune favors the bold.

Isn't that because it is a game of thrones?

The constant reference to dice, pawns and games reminded me of the early versions of chess in India where along with moving the pieces, each move was accompanied by a throw of dice. It was how royalty gambled.

[Julian Rayne]

Lysa claims the lords of the Vale loved Jon Arryn well and thus the men of the Vale are willing to die for her, but no claim of love for Lysa herself or even little Robert. How is Lysa viewed by the Vale lords? Why did she pick Vardis the only one not to volunteer?

Maybe the fact that they "love" Jon Arryn and are willing to die for Lysa are empty courtesies that even she doesn't believe. As for Vardis, he was the only one who did not see the "honor" in slaughtering a dwarf half his size. I would have picked him too.

[Ragnorak]

Isn't that because it is a game of thrones?

The constant reference to dice, pawns and games reminded me of the early versions of chess in India where along with moving the pieces, each move was accompanied by a throw of dice. It was how royalty gambled.

I actually like this idea of game pieces littering the game.

I don't want to jump ahead but it strikes me that Varys is a more calculating and risk averse player-- or at least far less prone to the highly uncertain moves we would think of as gambles. LF seems all too happy to just roll the dice. We see others, the Freys as one notable example, who don't like to gamble at all but would far prefer to wait for a more certain outcome. Where will Tyrion fall in this spectrum? I suspect a closer analysis of Tywin would show that he does not really gamble, period-- of course as the richest Tywin is usually going to be the one with the most to lose. Tywin chose the conservative route of waiting in Harrenhal instead of gambling to march on Renly or Robb while Tyrion gambled with wildfyre in KL. I'm wondering if the gambling references are not part of some greater commentary. Will there be a gambler vs Cyvasse player sense that emerges? At the least I expect it to be a father/son compare and contrast issue (I doubt Tywin would have risked all on a trial by combat to escape captivity.) I'm not looking to discuss these events now, just to flag this for future observation as we go on.

[Lummel]

Just a quick thought.

There is something fantastical about the atmosphere at the Eyrie as though Lysa and her court are more than just physically elevated from reality - perhaps they have all been drinking too much, but really those men who volunteer with the expectation that they will face Tyrion in single combat...I mean, good grief, haven't they ever heard of the Reynes of Castlemere or never heard the accompanying song (as sung by all good wandering bards)?

[Ragnorak]

@Lummel

I wonder how much Lysa as a marriage match that can effectively bring the Vale plays into this Tywin blindness. Also Lysa seems the type to reward this type of kissing up. Ned is Hand and Sansa is destined to be the next Queen so there are factors to consider. The Arryn, Stark, Baratheon alliance did take down the Targaryens without and real aid from Tywin. Still, as a knight I wouldn't be that keen on being the sword that killed Tywin's son. It isn't like Lysa offered herself in marriage for the deed.

It occurred to me that the end of this chapter is the birth of Tyrion the Leader. Bronn is the first man that Tyrion brings into his service of his own merits rather than having men assigned to him by Tywin. Bronn could have chosen any Vale lord or even the Starks. Ser Roderick is the master at arms and would certainly recognize Bronn's skill. He also has need of men to replace those Ned took south and we see how Ned is always on the lookout for talent such as the archery contest winner and Gendry and this concept must have been conveyed to Roderick. The gold of Casterly Rock is the real incentive but he still chooses to follow Tyrion at great risk over easier and safer service.

[Natalie_S]

“Lady Arryn, should any harm come to me, my brother Jaime will be pleased to see that they do.”

“And now I demand a champion, such as you have chosen for yourself. My brother Jaime will gladly take my part, I know.”

It's curious to see that everytime Tyrion threatens about the power of his House, never says that his father would avenge him, as we would expect, but it's always Jaime. Even at the battle of Blackwaters he thinks that it must be Jaime that has come to rescue him ("who else would?").

His mouth had gotten him into this cell; it could damn well get him out.

[...]

“You heard me, my lord. Only carry my word to your lady. Tell her . . . ” What? What would possibly make Lysa Anyn relent? The inspiration came to Tyrion Lannister suddenly. “ . . . .tell her that I wish to confess my crimes.”

As usual, Tyrion uses his wits and his cunning as his wheapon, but we notice that he's not a planner.

He mostly relies on the inspiration of the moment.

I think it's also quite interesting to see how the Tully sisters are seen by Tyrion.

Catelyn is always cold and reasonable, while Lysa is simply evil.

But I think it's also interesting to note that the fact that Lysa is a woman never plays any part in Tyrion's judgement: there's never any derogatory term referring her femininity, not even in his thoughts (opposed to Jaime's mocking "wench" used to address Brienne or all the insults towards other women that Cersei thinks in her POV). He only notes that she wears make up and perfume, which seems to be a prominent characteristic of Lysa since also Sansa repeatedly mentions it.

In comparison, Lysa comes across as more weak and grotesque in her attempts of being pretty and desirable in Cat and Sansa's POV, who are extremely merciless in their descriptions.

It was the same for Catelyn: Tyrion was mad and ashamed for having being outwitted by a Stark ("seven times damned she-wolf"), but always looks at her as at a worthy adversary (perhaps because he's used to deal with fierce Cersei?).

On the other hand, he's completely pitiless towards Sweetrobin, who's described as "rheumy-eyed six-year-olds who needed to stuff fat cushions under their cheeks to lift them to the height of a man", "her half-sane weakling son", "the snot-nosed little wretch"... Tyrion's sympathy for "broken things" doesn't surpass his contempt for weakness, in himself and in other people.

"I have wished my own lord father dead, and my sister, our gracious queen, as well."

This is the first explicit hint of Tyrion's feelings towards Tywin, that will be explained in one or two POVs with Tysha's story.

[Lummel]

Second I think Natalie_S - Tyrion II, Tyrion tells Jon that he used to fantasise about watching his father and sister burn to death when he lit fires in Casterly Rock.

Telling Jon, in a private conversation, is one thing but it is striking that he says this in open court at the Vale surrounded by nobles and notables.

I do like the idea of there being two types of player of the game gamblers and strategic players, but even in games like chess a certain strategy can be a gamble.

[Blisscraft]

_{About Games (and food) - In the beginning of this POV, as Mord tries to taunt Tyrion with the beans, Tyrion says, "Must we play the same fool's game with every meal?"}

_{Interesting notion in light of the areas we've focused on so far in the thread.}

_{Flying - It's funny that no one at the Eyrie refers to "falling" out of the sky cells or through the Moon Door. It's always referred to as "flying." Lysa asks Tyrion, "Can you fly, my lord of Lannister? . . .Does a dwarf have wings?"}

_{And a little later, after Tyrion "promises" his family (Jaime) will come after the Eyrie, Robert trembles calling Tyrion a "liar" and then says, "Mother, I want to see him fly."}

_{This is meant as irony coming from Lysa. The idea is to see Tyrion fall to his death from the great height of the Eyrie to the floor of the Vale. However, "flying" is repeated so often in these Cat/Tyrion POV's at the Eyrie, that there must be more to it.}

_{As a symbol, flight or flying is associated with freedom, especially freedom from limitations like in the expression "free as a bird." Also, it is associated with arrogance or superiority, as in the myth of Icarus, flying too close to the sun on "beautiful foolish arms." (Nod to Joni Mitchell). Flying is also associated with the imagination such as in "a flight of fancy."}

_{This repetition with regards to Tyrion flying is multilayered. Tyrion, until captured by Cat is "free as a bird." He's traveling to Winterfell, then the Wall and so on until taken. In his travels, he finds ways to put himself above others, not only with his wit, but also literally above others as in the Jon POV where he startles Jon from the roof or Tyrion's desire to be atop the Wall even when he's cold and tired after his dinner with Mormont. The "special" saddle is a means of putting himself at the same level or above when seated upon a "special" horse. Finally, Tyrion's imagination and wit combine to create a sense of superiority/arrogance as in this POV when he uses his quick thinking to outwit his jailer and get himself from the sky cell to Lysa and her court.}

_{The sad flip side of flying, at least for human beings is expressed by the adage, "what goes up, must come down." This is the "moral" behind the Icarus story. Don't fly too close to the sun. Our cleverness as human beings can only take us so far until we plummet downwards, as in "pride cometh before the Fall." Something to keep in mind as we watch Tyrion.}

_{In the GRRM world, besides the ravens and crows and other birds that fly, the only other thing that will fly (but not at this point in the books) are dragons.}

[Winterfellian]

Just a few thoughts on this Tyrion chapter:

I like Natalie's observation regarding Jaime. This chapter runs very close to the one Jaime attacked Ned's guards because he wants his brother back. Is evident that theirs is a close relationship or as close as a Lannister relation as can get. Is curious that Tyrion told Jon that he dreams of murdering his father and sister but also told him that he knows what is like to love a brother. He gave Jon the two sides of his feelings while he's only giving the Vale knights a side of it.

I enjoyed many of Tyrion's deduction skills in this chapter. Not only his observation of whether the lion and the wolf were the only players so far (as we later found out is not the case) but also the way he brokedown Cat's accusation and how the Starks had practically no proof even with the dagger to the point where he wished that Cercei was cunning enough to see this. It matched Ned's own deductions as well when he sent Catelyn with insructions for the Northern bannermen.

What I find interesting is that during this thoughts he doesn't seem relish at the possibility of a Lannister-Stark war.

[Natalie_S]

_{However, "flying" is repeated so often in these Cat/Tyrion POV's at the Eyrie, that there must be more to it.}

[...]

_{In the GRRM world, besides the ravens and crows and other birds that fly, the only other thing that will fly (but not at this point in the books) are dragons.}

The Eyrie is really haunting for the clinical, aseptic and yet very effective psychological torture of the sky cell

“You fly,” Mord had promised him, when he’d shoved him into the cell. “Twenty day, thirty, fifty maybe. Then you fly.”

And let's not forget the creepy writing:

Gods save me, some previous tenant had written on the wall in something that looked suspiciously like blood, the blue is calling.

That's a very peculiar way of expressing it.

I wonder if perhaps that is foreshadowing of some future flying.

[Blisscraft]

About Flying - The only other character so far that has discussed trying to fly is Brandon. The Three Eyed Crow tells him to fly.

[Winter's Knight]

Blisscraft:whether a prisoner were to fall from a skycell or be pushed through the Moon Door,they would fall at an angle. This combined with the great height and winds would cause a body to land a considerable distance away from the base of the Eyrie.

To a casual observer, watching from above, the said prisoner would appear to be flying.

[Blisscraft]

WK - You scare me. :ack: "casual observer"?????

[Ice Turtle]

About Flying - The only other character so far that has discussed trying to fly is Brandon. The Three Eyed Crow tells him to fly.

Euron and Vic had a short discussion about it in the last AFfC Vic chapter and of course there is Daenerys, the first person we will see literally fly, albeit using a dragon.

[Winter's Knight]

WK - You scare me. :ack: "casual observer"?????

Ach my bloodthirst has betrayed me again!

I was actually using the phrase my brother's physics text used, although granted that it was discussing Galileo's experiment.

[Blisscraft]

Ach my bloodthirst has betrayed me again!

:lmao:

I was actually using the phrase my brother's physics text used, although granted that it was discussing Galileo's experiment.

Physics books! They can get one into serious trouble.

[Blisscraft]

Euron and Vic had a short discussion about it in the last AFfC Vic chapter and of course there is Daenerys, the first person we will see literally fly, albeit using a dragon.

I should clarify, I was refering to where we are in the reread rather than later in the other books.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion VI

Overview

Upon leaving the Eyrie via turnip-basket, Tyrion and Bronn are making their way along the high road through the mountains of the Vale. Bronn favors traveling quickly and only by night in order to avoid rousing the clans, but Tyrion has other plans.

The chapter is dominated by banter between the two men: whether to hide from or draw out the clansmen, motivations of sellswords, Tyrion’s innocence, and the story of Tysha.

After Tyrion falls asleep, Bronn alerts him to the fact that the clansmen have finally come, as Tyrion predicted. Tyrion talks the clansmen out of killing them, and after endearing himself to them with humor, they become his allies.

Observations

“You’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon.” Is there any chance that this particular septon is our favorite drunken teletubby at the Wall? If so, it could explain this esteemed councilor’s view on placating the Lannisters.

Analysis

I think that this chapter is a particularly good example of the subtle manipulations Martin crafts to render Tyrion clever, trustworthy and sympathetic. Since this happens to be the chapter in which we see the story of Tysha, I think it’s worth taking a look at the process of how Martin seduces us into sympathizing with Tyrion even in truly questionable circumstances.

“forgive me if I do not linger to bury you”

The chapter opens with Bronn and Tyrion disagreeing about whether to travel subtly or not. By all accounts, Bronn ought to be the expert outdoorsman, yet Tyrion challenges his advice to go by night as an attempt to be unseen by clansmen. Tyrion wants to draw out potential enemies.

Bronn is unconvinced (and by all means, what kind of expertise does Tyrion have on this subject), but Tyrion tries another tack. He shows Bronn that he has Bronn’s number. Tyrion explicates his thought process- for both Bronn’s and the readers’ edification- detailing how through observation and logic, Tyrion has been able to successfully predict both Bronn’s nature and how the recent circumstances have played out. Impressed, Bronn’s resolve against lighting a fire starts to be chipped away, as we have experienced “seduction no. 1.”

Tyrion is setting himself up as an accurate and reliable observer of character, and highly adept at logical extensions. Similarly, Bronn was set up as a competent and shrewd opportunist. That Tyrion schools this experienced, street smart guy in his own business sets up the following dialogue as Tyrion’s being the “first among equals,” that is, they are mutually reinforcing each other’s cleverness, with Tyrion’s coming out that much more competent by the end. The banter between the two is playful, but loaded, and soon enough Tyrion is very much in command.

“Do I look like a liar to you?”

Tyrion’s clearly won the debate, as they’re eating Bronn’s kill by a fire in plain sight. Bronn realizes that with regard to drawing out the clansman, that Tyrion has a plan in mind. Resigned to see how this will play out, Bronn inquires about Tyrion’s giving Mord the bag of gold back at the Eyrie. Tyrion lets him know that he takes the saying, “a Lannister always pays his debts,” quite seriously.

Enter “seduction no. 2.” The reader cannot help but feel that this was a move of honesty and honor. Tyrion reflects on his abuse, his bestowment of the gold and Mord’s reaction, and Tyrion’s following through on his promise comes across as an incredibly “big” thing to have done. To further reinforce the point of Tyrion’s honesty, the truth of the dagger is revealed: Tyrion wants to go to King’s Landing to find out what the hell is going on, to which Bronn responds with great surprise.

“on her way to…well, nowhere, really”

The memory of a song, “The Seasons of my Love,” provokes Tyrion into disclosing the story of his first love, Tysha, to Bronn. He “hears himself saying” the story, implying that some force other than reason is compelling him to unload—that there is something of catharsis at play in telling Bronn these things, which adds to the emotional value of the confession. The first paragraph of the story details what appears to be a sweet tale of chivalry, where Tyrion (with help from Jaime) saved and fell for a common girl at the age of 13. Tyrion recounts their night at the inn, eating and drinking to satiety, and culminating in the two losing their virginities together. Tyrion confesses that he was in love and actually married the girl.

Bronn’s incredulous over the idea that Tyrion was in love. Indeed, Tyrion had just taken pains to prove that he was a street-wise player who could not be fooled or succumb to emotional weakness. Yet, “seduction no. 3” drives home the point that he’s sweet and capable of love additionally to all that competence we’ve seen. The friction of Bronn’s reaction kind of serves to underscore the reader’s sympathies with Tyrion at this point. But what became of said marriage?

“Lord Tywin had me go last”

Tyrion enjoyed his marriage for a fortnight, until his father discovered his folly and put an end to the marriage. By now, we should be good and buttery in our sympathies for Tyrion. We proceed to learn that Jaime had set the whole thing up: “the girl was a whore, you see.” His lord father did “better” than sending the girl away. He had each of his men pay her a stag while they raped her as Tyrion watched. The “smoke stings” his eyes, and he clears his throat as he confesses the last part of the story: “Lord Tywin had me go last.”

Now, this is revealed in a haltingly emotional, yet detached way by Tyrion. The “smoke” waters his eyes as a euphemism for wanting to cry, and the strategic ellipses heighten the pathos of Tyrion’s anguish, making it clear that he is trying to hold it together despite feeling great pain. Then we have Bronn’s reaction to this: “Thirteen, or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

“Seduction no. 4” is truly a masterpiece. Tyrion has basically confessed to raping the woman he had just proclaimed to love after watching his father’s company rape her. YET, the “takeaway” from this is that Tyrion was deeply wronged by his father, and is the recipient of the reader’s, Bronn’s and his own pity. I mean, yea, this is tragic for Tyrion too (at least up to the part when he actually raped her), but it’s kind of strange that this is written in such a way that Tyrion benefits from the sympathy from all observers as the wronged party. Further, Tyrion- the victim- has no culpability in the rape of Tysha; Tywin remains the single monster in this circumstance. This is subsequently reinforced by the dream Tyrion has in which he plays Mord to a prisoner Tywin and beats him furiously in revenge.

“and a maiden’s mouth around my cock”

In the grand finale, Tyrion’s quick tongue, which has gotten him in so much trouble as of late, finally pays off. He and Bronn find themselves surrounded by the clansmen, who seem to have every intention of killing them. Tyrion appeals to his status and promises to give them whatever they want. They remain unconvinced. When Gunthor, son of Gurn asks Tyrion how he’d like to die, Tyrion slays them with wit: “In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden’s mouth on my cock, at the age of 80.” The clansmen find this hilarious, and decide to spare the “halfman.”

In “seduction no. 5,” Tyrion basically pulls a Steve Jobs on the clansmen. Noting their poor weapons, he creates a demand for a product they didn’t even realize they needed until Tyrion points it out as a problem (and appealing to their pride at cowering from the knights of the Vale). In exchange for an alliance and sparing their lives, the clansmen agree to the promise of better weaponry from House Lannister. Oh, and the Vale.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job as always butterbumps!

Bronn grinned. "You're bold as any sellsword, I'll give you that"

Tyrion later becomes a sellsword for the Second Sons in ADwD.

"When you meet your gods, say it was Gunthor son of Gurn of the Stone Crows who sent you to them"

This implies the mountain clans aren't familiar with the Seven, meaning they could worship the Old Gods.

[Natalie_S]

Now, this is revealed in a haltingly emotional, yet detached way by Tyrion. The “smoke” waters his eyes as a euphemism for wanting to cry, and the strategic ellipses heighten the pathos of Tyrion’s anguish, making it clear that he is trying to hold it together despite feeling great pain. Then we have Bronn’s reaction to this: “Thirteen, or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

“Seduction no. 4” is truly a masterpiece. Tyrion has basically confessed to raping the woman he had just proclaimed to love after watching his father’s company rape her. YET, the “takeaway” from this is that Tyrion was deeply wronged by his father, and is the recipient of the reader’s, Bronn’s and his own pity. I mean, yea, this is tragic for Tyrion too (at least up to the part when he actually raped her), but it’s kind of strange that this is written in such a way that Tyrion benefits from the sympathy from all observers as the wronged party. Further, Tyrion- the victim- has no culpability in the rape of Tysha; Tywin remains the single monster in this circumstance. This is subsequently reinforced by the dream Tyrion has in which he plays Mord to a prisoner Tywin and beats him furiously in revenge.

I don't understand what you mean.

Of course this is tragic for Tyrion because that was abuse also on him. A 13 year old that is forced to have sex against his will is victim of abuse. Full stop.

The fact that he didn't want to is later explicited in ACOK when he tells the story to Shae "I didn't want to but my cock betrayed me".

Tywin here is using the same psychology that paedophiles and abusers often use, which is using any unwilling arousal of the victim to make them feel partners in crime rather than victims, and to make them believe that they "wanted to", "called for it" or whatever.

But we, readers, know (or should know) that Tyrion is a victim here, just as much as Bronn knows: in fact he says that he would have killed the man that did this to him Tyrion says that maybe one day he will (there's so much foreshadowing for this that in ASOS it isn't really a surprise).

As to Tysha, it's interesting that Tyrion doesn't seem to feel betrayed by her, and doesn't perceive her as nothing but a victim of the circumstances. Again, this is more explained in ACOK when he wonders if he told the story to Shae to have "forgiveness".

In Tyrion's mind, even if he believes that Tysha was a prostitute, it's not her fault for doing her job, but it's his fault for allowing Tywin to abuse her, or perhaps even for believing the illusion of love in the first place (remember his leitmotiv in the next books "fool, she doesn't love you, remember Tysha etc").

Tywin said that the punishment was also designed to make him remember her "without tenderness", but it's clear that it didn't work.Tywin has tried to carve into his son's mind that being a whore is a reason enough for contempt, but apparently it hasn't worked. For all the next books, he will try to rationally detach himself for any feeling for Shae, but at the same time he will act driven by his emotions.

This is another duality of the character: rationality vs emotions, Lord Lannister vs Tyrion.

Tyrion hasn't fully recovered by the shock of the violence: he almost cries telling the story and the detachment that he tries to keep is probably his way to "go inside himself" as Jaime told Brienne and Tommen (and possibly Tyrion too, at some point in the past?).