Rereading Tyrion

[Woman of War]

I can only agree fully to what Natalie said about child abuse. In fact it is today in RL a very common method to suggest to juvenile victims of abuse that they are partners in crime by making them cross borders where they on screen are brought to manipulate other kids, only to bribe them later in not going to the police. And a boner in a young boy is an involuntary physical reaction that cannot be controlled, yet it often serves as manipulating a male child into "you wanted it, don't complain now".

I think we can certainly put the question in how far the thirteen year old child could have resisted the the overwhelming manipulation of that godlike father. Yes, the boy Tyrion might have fought, might have refused, might have been able to detach himself from his father, that great manipulator of his life. But Tywin was God to him, the value of Tyrion's whole existence depended of Tywin's approval. And his first step out of it, loving and marrying Tysha, has been crushed in a most perfious way by the big abuser, who even morally abused his far older son here. Tywin has always been obsessed with controlling his children and that independent action of Tyrion, LOVING, had not only to be punished but every positive memory of independence had to be cunningly torn to pieces. Tywin despised his crippled son but he could not let him go emotionally, no way.

And yes, the child Tyrion has some guilt to carry. After that short glimpse at independence he allowed his father to transform him back into a whimpering coward without backbone, crawling back into God- Daddy's emotional chains, unable to stand up for the person he cared for. He was weak, not out of fear of physical punishment but out of the inability to fight for his own independence, to free himself from Daddy's pervert mental claws. And weakness is something Tyrion is not willing to forgive himself, he is clearlly aware that he has totally failed Tysha here. Yes, Tyrion is guilty here, he technically committed the physical act of rape, but his guilt does not lie in being a rapist. He is no more a rapist than the little girl who penetrates another girl with an instrument for a porn production because they both have been bribed into it by evil manipulations. Tyrion is an abused child himself, his "guilt", or weakness, lies in having been a coward who chose the way out that went along with the expectations of his abuser and not standing up when it really counted.

And this is a recurrent topic in Tyrion's story: He despises weakness, especially his own, he despises his body for being weak and he feels painfully inadequate in protecting those he cares for, Shae, Sansa or Penny.

And, butterbumps, I do not get why you are accusing Martin here to manipulate us to like Tyrion where we "shouldn't". It is the right of an author to seduce his readers, it is even his duty. As soon as we start reading a book we enter someone else's realm, where the author is king and sets the rules. This does not mean that we leave our brain outside its border but we should be very willing to follow that king's paths, for the sake of our own pleasure.

We are seduced into seeing Tyrion's point of view, every good literature is seduction.

Why do you think it would be negative to be seduced into liking or pitying Tyrion? Is there any objective rule that we shouldn't?

You can now argue that I am fully a victim of GRRM's perfious manipulations and therefore the best proof for them. I would argue that we are simply of different opinions in some aspects.

I for example am a little nervous when something reads like belittling the child abuse of boys compared to the abuse of girls, (not suggesting that you intend to do this), denying abused boys the status of victim (about the guilt part of 13 year old Tyrion I have written above)

[Lummel]

Something that strikes me as interesting about the Tysha story as Tyrion tells it is that Jaime is the prime motivator. First in deciding to set up Tyrion with a girl, then going through this particular charade rather than something more, er obvious or less deceitful, and finally for betraying the story to papa Tywin.

But Tyrion reserves his anger for Tywin alone. At this stage Tyrion feels that the only debt that needs to be repaid is to Tywin. Jaime in Tyrion's mind escapes all blame, there too he seems to have golden armour.

And for those of us keeping count: another meal - roast goat with trenchers of bread.

[butterbumps!]

I don't understand what you mean.

Of course this is tragic for Tyrion because that was abuse also on him. A 13 year old that is forced to have sex against his will is victim of abuse. Full stop.

The fact that he didn't want to is later explicited in ACOK when he tells the story to Shae "I didn't want to but my cock betrayed me".

Tywin here is using the same psychology that paedophiles and abusers often use, which is using any unwilling arousal of the victim to make them feel partners in crime rather than victims, and to make them believe that they "wanted to", "called for it" or whatever.

But we, readers, know (or should know) that Tyrion is a victim here, just as much as Bronn knows: in fact he says that he would have killed the man that did this to him Tyrion says that maybe one day he will (there's so much foreshadowing for this that in ASOS it isn't really a surprise).

As to Tysha, it's interesting that Tyrion doesn't seem to feel betrayed by her, and doesn't perceive her as nothing but a victim of the circumstances. Again, this is more explained in ACOK when he wonders if he told the story to Shae to have "forgiveness".

In Tyrion's mind, even if he believes that Tysha was a prostitute, it's not her fault for doing her job, but it's his fault for allowing Tywin to abuse her, or perhaps even for believing the illusion of love in the first place (remember his leitmotiv in the next books "fool, she doesn't love you, remember Tysha etc").

Tywin said that the punishment was also designed to make him remember her "without tenderness", but it's clear that it didn't work.Tywin has tried to carve into his son's mind that being a whore is a reason enough for contempt, but apparently it hasn't worked. For all the next books, he will try to rationally detach himself for any feeling for Shae, but at the same time he will act driven by his emotions.

This is another duality of the character: rationality vs emotions, Lord Lannister vs Tyrion.

Tyrion hasn't fully recovered by the shock of the violence: he almost cries telling the story and the detachment that he tries to keep is probably his way to "go inside himself" as Jaime told Brienne and Tommen (and possibly Tyrion too, at some point in the past?).

And, butterbumps, I do not get why you are accusing Martin here to manipulate us to like Tyrion where we "shouldn't". It is the right of an author to seduce his readers, it is even his duty. As soon as we start reading a book we enter someone else's realm, where the author is king and sets the rules. This does not mean that we leave our brain outside its border but we should be very willing to follow that king's paths, for the sake of our own pleasure.

We are seduced into seeing Tyrion's point of view, every good literature is seduction.

Why do you think it would be negative to be seduced into liking or pitying Tyrion? Is there any objective rule that we shouldn't?

You can now argue that I am fully a victim of GRRM's perfious manipulations and therefore the best proof for them. I would argue that we are simply of different opinions in some aspects.

I for example am a little nervous when something reads like belittling the child abuse of boys compared to the abuse of girls, (not suggesting that you intend to do this), denying abused boys the status of victim (about the guilt part of 13 year old Tyrion I have written above)

Hmm. I should perhaps clarify this, because it probably sounds unfair. I was trying to use the term "manipulate" not as something treacherous, but as "making" or "crafting an argument," the way we "manipulate" or select and frame data to make a map. I'm not trying to accuse anyone of malfeasance. Honestly, I think that the way Tyrion's actions are presented is really intriguing and masterful. I'm not trying to portray Tyrion as a monster or suggest that Martin is forcing us to like Tyrion by any means. Rather, I think that Martin "sells" Tyrion's character particularly well, to the point where sometimes I think that certain actions of his are intended to elicit sympathies despite being questionable or overlook the reality of the action a bit. I think this is subtle, and a sign of good writing.

On the structure and the way sympathy for Tyrion is framed: I chose to present this particular chapter in this way, because, imo, it has always particularly evoked the structure of a sales pitch of Tyrion's character to Bronn, the clansman and the reader, where the "doozy" of Tyrion's participation in the Tysha punishment becomes collapsed and kind of obfuscated.

I don't see Tyrion's emotions in this scene as empathetic or outraged for Tysha's sake, as much as I see it as self-pity. I think it's interesting, because the first part of the story comes across as sweet and endearing. When the shoe drops and Tywin's punishment is explained, it is framed in a way that underscores Tywin's abuse of Tyrion, presenting more of a case for sympathy for Tyrion as the wronged party, and obfuscating how Tyrion feels about this as pertains to Tysha, imo. It is clear that Tyrion feels violated for Tyrion, but I'm not sure that I see his empathy for Tysha coming through.

I think that this is worthwhile to note this because Tyrion's arc is full of cases where his motivation is foremost self-pity, yet it would appear that his actions stem from less selfish feelings than this by a similar sleight of the authorial hand. Indeed, I think that this is the first major case of many where Tyrion's self-pity comes across as something perhaps more "noble" or indicative of empathy than it really is. The punishment as constructed by Tywin is framed around punishing Tyrion as an end, much moreso than Tysha. Tysha is just the vehicle through which Tyrion is to be embarrassed and violated (as it's presented). This is how Tywin sees the punishment, and it seems that Tyrion subscribes to this as well-- that in the end, it's all about a lesson for Tyrion, which negates Tysha's humanity somewhat.

On the actuality of Tyrion's participation: Maybe it's just me, but despite the way it's presented, I always feel visceral horror and sympathetic violation for Tysha, but not for Tyrion once he confesses that he went last. I'm not going to accuse Tyrion of being a sadist, but I have always found it rather strange that given his ability to get erect in this circumstance, that he was implicitly turned on by watching Tywin's men rape her and/ or the thought of taking her afterward. I'm by no means an expert, and I know that men will sometimes get hard even under duress to sexual encounters that they don't want, but I honestly find the whole dynamic of this quite strange and indicative of deeper issues than Tyrion as a victim of rape or abuse.

This isn't a case where a woman Tyrion absolutely did not want to have sex with stimulated or restrained him in some way to perform. Rather, Tyrion watched her getting raped and for some reason was able to step in and finish the job despite no physical stimulation or otherwise prior. To me, this suggests that there is a disconnect in the way he regards whores versus women, and secondly, that there is perhaps something he finds stimulating about humiliation. Or at the very least, that humiliation and sadness of a woman is not something he's turned off by. I'm not an expert, but I think that many men in this situation would not be able to perform if they were ordered to "go last" after standing to the side (without a "fluffer" of any sort offering physical stimulation) and watching their wives or lovers be gang raped. I don't think that the degree of perversity Tywin evidences should be mitigated in any way, and I'm in no way trying to transfer Tywin's blame to Tyrion. I just think that there's a lot more than accepting this as abuse of Tyrion going on here.

With regard to the aCoK "my cock betrayed me." What's interesting is that Tyrion actually refrains from revealing his participation of this to Shae. He doesn't actually confess this to her, but keeps it to himself and recalls Tywin's words to him in his head. We're not quite at that chapter yet, so I don't want to dwell on the implications of this, but I think his omission to Shae implies that he finds it shameful that he was able to perform in this circumstance (Tyrion's participation is in italics as he purposely does not tell Shae that last little gem and thinks that he should have defied his father).

[FanTasy]

About Flying - The only other character so far that has discussed trying to fly is Brandon. The Three Eyed Crow tells him to fly.

Didn't Arya also express the wish to fly? And Dany of course.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes. She does in ACoK.

"If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to."

Euron also wanted to fly.

“When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” he announced.

“When I woke, I couldn’t . . . or so the maester said.

But what if he lied?”

“Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. “No man ever truly knows what he can do

unless he dares to leap.”

[Blisscraft]

FanTasy and Arya_ Nim - Thank you for pointing out other examples in later texts.

BB - Once again, very nice job with the Tyrion POV in question. I particularly like the tid bit about the Septon and his characteristic telly tubby shape. What do you do with a drunken septon? Send him to the Wall of course! :laugh:

[FanTasy]

Euron also wanted to fly.

Thanks! I forgot about Euron and that he probably had a visit from a certain crow.

[butterbumps!]

FanTasy and Arya_ Nim - Thank you for pointing out other examples in later texts.

BB - Once again, very nice job with the Tyrion POV in question. I particularly like the tid bit about the Septon and his characteristic telly tubby shape. What do you do with a drunken septon? Send him to the Wall of course! :laugh:

lol! Actually, it wasn't so much the shape as much as I have the perception that teletubbies are perpetually drunk (or maybe stoned or something). They're for some reason my token image of non-threatening, comical sousedness.

[Lummel]

Lets have a different twist on the Tysha story and I'll hark back to my comment about Tyrion confessing his desire to murder his father to the Vale Lords.

Isn't this whole confession to Bronn actually very weird, and because of that presumably it tells us something important about Tyrion.

What is Bronn to Tyrion? Useful scum. Handy with a sword. Somebody who can be bought. And owned.

So why does he tell him about the rape of Tysha?

Ok. I haven't been married at 13 and then obliged by a noble father to participate in the gang rape of my wife so I'm only speculating here, but it seems to me the kind of traumatic experience that you don't talk about to your employees and certainly not your new hires whom who (presumably) haven't even paid yet. Maybe I'm just particularly reserved but it doesn't seem to me to be the kind of thing that somebody would talk about to a new friend or acquaintance over the first meal that they are sharing together (notice the breaking of the bread, they are (ready for the bad pun) companions now). There is something significant about sharing meals but Tyrion's unilateral confession goes away beyond that, plus as the employer shouldn't Bronn as the dependant be spilling his secrets to Tyrion?

And this extreme openness about very strong emotions - Tysha and his patricidal /cerseicidal lusts - is in such absolute contrast to the repeated emotional mutedness that we've mentioned a couple of times now: "Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty", or feeling embarrassed for Mormont when he explains the poor state of the watch. Heh! The man feels embarrassed and absurd in those situations but openly and freely blurts out that he wants to murder his father and raped his first wife?

Two things occur to me. Tyrion could be using emotion as a short cut to intimacy, by giving away something so personal perhaps he seeks to force a connection between himself and Bronn (not sure that makes so much sense for the Vale Lords though, also it implies that Tyrions believes that Bronn isn't scum but a decent human who will respond positively to this confidence - which seems a hopelessly optimistic notion in Westeros). Secondly Tyrion is profoundly unbalanced as an individual with an inverted sense of boundaries and appropriate behaviours and responses.

Certainly because he is witty and engaging Tyrion can be easy to relate to as characters go but I think these moments like the confession to Bronn underline that he is a very damaged individual and we should be cautious about accepting his judgements and world view.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - Been thinking about Bronn as the "Wedding Guest," too (nod to Coleridge). Why does Tyrion chose to relate such a story to a person like Bronn? Unhealthy boundaries and shortcut to intimacy may explain why Tyrion tells Bronn this story. Also, Tyrion may be trying to manipulate Bronn in order to bring him closer with this embarrassing story. However, at this point in the POV, after the "escape" from the Eyrie, Bronn has cast his lot with Tyrion. Maybe the story is an attempt to maintain Bronn's service and companionship. Tyrion needs service and companions. (He can't light the fire without Bronn. He can't snag the goat for the meal without Bronn). Bronn's aid will help Tyrion survive. But in addition to the above, Tyrion is trying to give Bronn a message. There can be many interpretations with regard to what that message may be and it's a pretty safe "bet" that Tyrion is trying to tell Bronn about the Lannisters, especially Tywin.

Need to look at the POV again.

[Winterfellian]

A passage that strikes me in this chapter as it relates to Tyrion's self image is when he told Bronn the following:

The Starks look for courage and loyalty and honor on the men they choose to serve them, and if truth be told, you and Chiggen were lowborn scum

I think this is a case similar to Theon's "I wanted to be one of them". Am not saying Tyrion wishes to be a Stark but rather that he would like for the men that serve him to be driven by courage, loyalty and honor and not by the gold of Casterly Rock just like he wished for Tysha to love him for himself and why his image of her was shattered when he found out he was a whore.

In Tyrion's logic in this last phrase, just like Bronn and Chiggen are undeserving of serving people such as the Starks Tyrion also is underserving of being served by men guided by the same principles of those who serve Ned and his family. His early experiences had taught him that such a thing is not possible. Hence his resolve to employ gold and why he continues to hold on to Tywin despite of his hatred of him.

For Tyrion is easier to mock the values the Starks look for in their men while using his father's gold to buy services rather than ask himself the question of what do the Starks do to deserve that type of service or rather what can he, Tyrion, do to deserve it.

[Lummel]

...But in addition to the above, Tyrion is trying to give Bronn a message. There can be many interpretations with regard to what that message may be and it's a pretty safe "bet" that Tyrion is trying to tell Bronn about the Lannisters, especially Tywin.

Need to look at the POV again.

That's true, it certainly adds another dimension to why you don't want to mess with a Lannister. They pay back their debts with interest :ack: .

[David Selig]

A passage that strikes me in this chapter as it relates to Tyrion's self image is when he told Bronn the following:

I think this is a case similar to Theon's "I wanted to be one of them". Am not saying Tyrion wishes to be a Stark but rather that he would like for the men that serve him to be driven by courage, loyalty and honor and not by the gold of Casterly Rock just like he wished for Tysha to love him for himself and why his image of her was shattered when he found out he was a whore.

I don't agree. I think Tyrion prefers that those who serve him are driven by money, since, as he likes to say, as a Lannister he can outbid the other offers. This also allows him to use them for more, let's say questionable, goals. Would an honorable man murder Symon the blackmail for example? Probably not, but for Bronn, it's a routine job. I don't think he fully trusts or fully understands the typical honorable Westeros knight or lord.

Anyway, I think another reason Tyrion's so open with Bronn is that despite his bravado, he was aware there was a very good chance the clansmen won't listen to hi and he'd die tonight or tomorrow. This was honestly the most realistic outcome, I've always thought the way they agreed with his plan so easily was somewhat contrived, but this is another topic...

[pat]

On the actuality of Tyrion's participation: Maybe it's just me, but despite the way it's presented, I always feel visceral horror and sympathetic violation for Tysha, but not for Tyrion once he confesses that he went last. I'm not going to accuse Tyrion of being a sadist, but I have always found it rather strange that given his ability to get erect in this circumstance, that he was implicitly turned on by watching Tywin's men rape her and/ or the thought of taking her afterward. I'm by no means an expert, and I know that men will sometimes get hard even under duress to sexual encounters that they don't want, but I honestly find the whole dynamic of this quite strange and indicative of deeper issues than Tyrion as a victim of rape or abuse.

This isn't a case where a woman Tyrion absolutely did not want to have sex with stimulated or restrained him in some way to perform. Rather, Tyrion watched her getting raped and for some reason was able to step in and finish the job despite no physical stimulation or otherwise prior. To me, this suggests that there is a disconnect in the way he regards whores versus women, and secondly, that there is perhaps something he finds stimulating about humiliation. Or at the very least, that humiliation and sadness of a woman is not something he's turned off by. I'm not an expert, but I think that many men in this situation would not be able to perform if they were ordered to "go last" after standing to the side (without a "fluffer" of any sort offering physical stimulation) and watching their wives or lovers be gang raped. I don't think that the degree of perversity Tywin evidences should be mitigated in any way, and I'm in no way trying to transfer Tywin's blame to Tyrion. I just think that there's a lot more than accepting this as abuse of Tyrion going on here.

Everything here is wrong in so many ways and so very offensive. Google Theo Fleury he was a teenage abuse survivor he later employed his abuser and defended him for years calling others who claimed abuse liars. (he wrote a book) A fluffer seriously a fluffer you wrote that down that has to be a joke. Fluffers are not a required part of abuse its sad that people liked what you wrote. im deeply ashamed i read it.

[Winter's Knight]

Everything here is wrong in so many ways and so very offensive. Google Theo Fleury he was a teenage abuse survivor he later employed his abuser and defended him for years calling others who claimed abuse liars. (he wrote a book) A fluffer seriously a fluffer you wrote that down that has to be a joke. Fluffers are not a required part of abuse its sad that people liked what you wrote. im deeply ashamed i read it.

I think that Bumps and myself are symptomnic of the lack of publicity/information readily available about male abuse.

It is shameful and I am sorry for it, if Tyrion had been a woman, this would never have been an issue.

It is just that-and this confuses me, because I don't understand male sexuality that well-isn't the fact that Tyrion got aroused by watching the guards rape his wife (and we must remember that she is not enjoying this but in pain and possibly weeping) worth commenting on?

Without taking away from the fact that Tyrion is very much a victim of sexual abuse, I think it does raise some questions.

I'd appreciate if you could help me here-I know I must be coming off as extremely crass and unfeeling, for which I am sorry..

[Woman of War]

@ butterbumps

Honestly, I think that the way Tyrion's actions are presented is really intriguing and masterful.  I'm not trying to portray Tyrion as a monster..........

Yes, here I agree with you, Tyrion is probably the best written character in the series, in no other character we get as much "inner life". And there lies trouble with the self pity issue: obviously you can get self pity of a certain intensity only in POV characters and the more inner monologue you get, the more verbally and intellectually competent a character is the more self reflection, i.e. self pity you will get. I am ahead but some of those great inner monologues of Jaime have the same character of ironic self pity in AFFC, see his exercises with Payne. And we do not get the same amount of explicit self pity from child characters like Sansa or Arya because the ability for insight is not yet developed in the same way in children ( even if Tyrion's insight may be a little twisted from time to time, being really clearsighted at other occasions).

I'm not going to accuse Tyrion of being a sadist, but I have always found it rather strange that given his ability to get erect in this circumstance, that he was implicitly turned on by watching Tywin's men rape her and/ or the thought of taking her afterward.

Butterbumps, do I understand you properly and you argue that Tyrion's psychic issues must have existed before the Tysha event, that he has been already a disturbed personality before since he was able to perform under those conditions?

;I'm by no means an expert, and I know that men will sometimes get hard even under duress to sexual encounters that they don't want, but I honestly find the whole dynamic of this quite strange and indicative of deeper issues than Tyrion as a victim of rape or abuse.

But Tyrion HAS been a victim of abuse from day one, of parental abuse. And I as well naturally am no expert concerning male erection though I had the pleasure to enjoy many of them :) and I discussed that issue with men, apart from that I have two sons just beyond puberty who were helpful enlighting me ( If they read here that they were willing to talk about sex with mom .....) and, yes, they themselves are sometimes unable to understand male erections.And todays experience of children and juveniles watching youporn teaches them that disgust and arousal are sometimes uncontrollable and deeply embarrassing, shocking themselves.

Tyrion, btw, was disgusted by himself and he was well aware of it.

But you are even implying that Tyrion indeed IS a sadist, that he has been aroused by Tysha's torture. I do not think that we see any proof for sadism for the pleasure of inflicting pain on others in Tyrion, we see Schadenfreude (it's used in English as well, isn't it? For good reason, I do not know any translation, we Germans must be of mischievious nature :) ) and sometimes a behaviour that borders to cruelty. But I see no sociopathic tendencies, linking arousal with inflicting pain, like we see it in Joffrey. And sadism we see all over the series, may it only be the normal sadism of putting someone in plain sight with a noose around his neck. Or Tywin's cool calculating sadism without pleasure, knowing that a lesson served with physical and especially mental torture better drives the lesson home.

But let's look at where Tyrion and his possible "deeper issues" might come from: even the cute little newborn Tyrion has never been touched by anyone with love or sympathy, his wetnurse probably was disgusted by the crippled baby, living all the prejudices of her timesetting, seeing a cripple as ill omen and punishment by the gods. Everyone who took care of baby Tyrion did so with disdain and unwilling, any nanny or woman he had closer contact to was paid for it - what does this tell a small child? Normally this is the straight way into psychic disaster, creating a mental cripple. The mental cripple in the series is so far Joffrey who has been loved by his mother. Most children in RL with a similiar experience are emotionally mostly dead, unable to feel some joy of living, compassion and empathy. This is certainly not the case with Tyrion whose hedonistic pleasure in life impresses me, he must have been an exceptionally strong child, maybe helped by Jaime and his own intellectual abilities that gave him self confidence.

No, Tyrion is an incredibly resilient personality, one of those few who are found in RL as well, having come out of the most horrid and abusive childhood being far less harmed than most but still: so much has been stolen from them, they are still scarred and have been robbed of a child's basic right: love.

[Lummel]

Welcome to the thread Pat, it was nice of you to contribute.

So far nobody posting has done so saying that they have been abused and know what that is like from first hand experience. That means that everybody has been posting from the perspective of imagining it from a non-abused perspective.

You've pointed out that can be misleading based on your knowledge, which is a fair and valid point to make, but I do feel that the way you expressed it was unfair and unnecessarily harsh towards another poster.

I don't know the case you are referring to, but in comparison to Tyrion we can see that he doesn't defend his abuser, in fact the contrary - he has openly and repeatedly expressed long held violent urges against him, so it doesn't seem as though the two cases are directly analogous.

@Winter's Knight and Woman of War

From my own perspective Bronn states what I felt when I read that text for the first time and better represents what I still feel reading it. Tyrion's reaction, even from a thirteen year old seems incomprehensible in that context, unless he had already been psychologically broken by his Father - but there is no suggestion of that in the text.

Even if you are physically aroused that doesn't mean that you loose control over your legs. The penis doesn't actually direct the brain when engorged. He could have still refused his father's orders, unless he decided that raping his wife was preferable to defying his father. I think this was the case and his extreme hatred of his father is in good part extreme hatred at himself for what he did that he transfers on to Tywin.

[Woman of War]

By Lummel:

I don't know the case you are referring to, but in comparison to Tyrion we can see that he doesn't defend his abuser, in fact the contrary - he has openly and repeatedly expressed long held violent urges against him, so it doesn't seem as though the two cases are directly analogous.

But Tyrion does defend his abuser while hating him at the same time. He defends Tywin with his whole existence by wanting nothing more than Big Daddy's approval, by wanting to be like him. Tyrion is defending Tywin with all his subconscious longing, while consciously hating and despising him. The popular expression for this is brainwashed.

and his extreme hatred of his father is in good part extreme hatred at himself for what he did that he transfers on to Tywin.

I agree

[butterbumps!]

Everything here is wrong in so many ways and so very offensive. Google Theo Fleury he was a teenage abuse survivor he later employed his abuser and defended him for years calling others who claimed abuse liars. (he wrote a book) A fluffer seriously a fluffer you wrote that down that has to be a joke. Fluffers are not a required part of abuse its sad that people liked what you wrote. im deeply ashamed i read it.

First I don't know what to call someone who serves the role of offering stimulation to a man to maintain an erection other than fluffer. I was trying to say that Tyrion's physical response had nothing to do with stimulation, and that by controlling for that variable, I thought it would isolate the issue of the nature of Tyrion's imposed and inner torment of the matter.

Unlike the case of sexual abuse that you mentioned, Tyrion is the one penetrating Tysha, not being penetrated himself (Unless I'm missing something about Theo, in which he was forced to penetrate others). And Tyrion rapes her with his penis, which requires it to be erect. I know that there have been cases of male-rape, where the man's body responds to physical stimulation despite his mind not wanting to. I think that it's clear in this circumstance that physical stimulation is not a factor for Tyrion when he walks up to Tysha and rapes her here, which means that there is another cause that enables him to have and maintain an erection.

When I read this chapter for the first time, I found it queer that Tyrion could engage in this sexual act on a purely physical level if he was truly so repulsed by it. As I said, I'm not an expert on all facets of male excitement, but I know of cases where an erection was lost/ never achieved for far less than this (perceived discomfort of the woman, feeling as though it was forced/ unreciprocated desire, something distracting occurs). I'm trying to say that I am not sure that the ability to rape Tysha in this scenario is one that most men would have, and as such is a curiosity to me.

Do I think that Tyrion was sexually abused here? Yes, I do. He was coerced to perform a sexual act, which I consider a form of sexual abuse. But this is the conventional reading of this passage, and the fact that there was some kind of desire there on his part is what interests me. NOT as a point toward stating that Tyrion is a monster or categoric woman-abuser. Rather, I think that unpacking the full dynamic of this scene starts to tease out the full depth of the way Tyrion views sex, women, his own worth, and will find expression in later chapters to help understand Tyrion's motivations in those circumstances. It also helps to start differentiating aspects of Tyrion's character from others. For example, I do not believe in a million years that Jaime would do this to Cersei (or another woman for that matter).

Further, I think that the way the scene is described by Tyrion tells us a lot about the way he feels (or I hypothesize that he doesn't feel) empathy for others. I think a critical aspect of Tyrion's character is that the person he is most capable of feeling sorry for (and happy for) is himself. I find it fascinating that Tyrion is so adept at understanding people's motivations, desires and moves, yet fails to actually feel for them in many cases. He's so rationally detached from the feelings of others in so many cases that he rationally knows what emotion they are expressing, but seems repeatedly unable to actually empathize with them. I think we start to see that in this chapter with the Tysha story in particular.

On the subject of abuse, I think WoW's point about Tywin's turning Tyrion into the abuser as a form of abuse is fascinating. I agree that this is going on, but I think it's telling us something about the construction of Tyrion's desires as well, which is what I (perhaps inelegantly) was trying to say earlier. I don't think that Tywin feels that what he's doing is wrong and wants to share the blame with Tyrion, like many abusers might. I think Tywin wants Tyrion to have a hand in the defamation of Tysha so that Tyrion won't see himself as a martyr, but blame both himself and Tywin for this, as well as drive the point home by "example." To even demand this of another person is coercive, abusive and just wrong.

I think that just forcing Tyrion to watch the rapes and demanding that he partakes is beyond cruelty an inhuman. This alone is more than enough to make Tyrion suffer, and I do think that Tyrion suffers tremendously from the whole affair.

However, the fact that Tyrion can maintain an erection tells us that there is an aspect of excitement or pleasure here at one end, and/or that a woman's suffering is not enough to lose it, as I think happens for most men. The fact that he can maintain the erection manifests again and again with regard to Tyrion's subsequent treatment of deeply unhappy sexual partners, and I honestly think that it's worth it to point this out here. I think that it points to Tyrion's inability to empathize, as well as evidence that the thought of another's humiliation is at the very least not a turnoff to him. I do think that Tyrion possesses some sexual proclivities that border BDSM territory, specifically in the humiliation aspect. I'm not trying to judge him for this, but as this is a project devoted to unpacking Tyrion's character, of which sex plays a huge role, I think looking at this is highly apropos.

[Blisscraft]

Survival - The tete-a-tete with Bronn about lighting a fire sets up that both characters prefers living over dying. Survival to the riverlands is the goal and it may be accomplished separately or together and either way there will be the risk of death, though less likely if the two are together.

Gambling - Tyrion is portrayed as quite the gambler again. He "tossed the dice" than Bronn would defend him at the Eyrie and is tossing the dice again in the hopes that Bronn will remain with him on the journey to the riverlands. He tosses the dice when the clansmen arrive by offering them steel (to take the Vale) instead of gold. Tyrion has a strong instinct for "currency," or what's valuable to others.

Scum - Finally, when Tyrion points out that Bronn (and Chiggen) as a sellsword has no lord, no duty and precious little honor, Tyrion is acknowledging to Bronn knows that his loyalty is bought and sold with gold and Tyrion is happy to buy that loyalty, but can only buy it so long as he is kept alive. (Gold is Bronn's currency). For some reason, Tyrion as a buyer of loyalty is presenting himself (especially as opposed to Lady Stark) as just as much of a "scum" as Bronn. The Tysha story may be a way of telling Bronn that Tyrion sees himself as "scum," and that his family members in the story are also "scum." But, the Lannisters are rich "scum," and therefore can buy whatever they like not matter who it hurts or destroys.

Sharp - After the Tysha story, Bronn returns to sharpening his blade, the rasp of steel on stone resumes as the only noise as they sit by the fire. There is something haunting about this image of Bronn maintaining his "sellsword," as well as that sound piercing the quiet.

Giant - In Tyrion's dream, he is not only the gaoler, but also he is a "big" one whipping his father with a strap. A giant of a gaoler?