[Book Spoilers] Shireen in place of Edric storm

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I agree with protar here (mostly), but there's one flaw in your season setup. Noone can learn to read in a week. So from going from saving Shireen to learning to read and reading the letter to Stannis seems a bit much. In the books, this takes quite a longer time.

The more I think about it, I'm quite convinced that Dragonstone will be the "Dany" of season 3, not much going forward and much repetition with stumbled storylines that are a bit out there. Like Sallsa the Pirate having access to Stannis' letters (as suggested above), the King's daughter visiting the prison or Stannis wanting to sacrifice her. The three leeches are also somehow of a problem (forshadowing versus not enough). They need to tread carefully here.

I could see them splitting the episodes a bit into a 3 episode arc at the beginning with Davos getting saved and then imprisoned and then a gap where Davos learns to read in prison and then taking it up again in episode 9 for the leech scene. Balon would then die in season 4 at the start.

[witches]

unless d&d are aiming to pretty much ruin everyone in dragonstone (which, at this point, i wouldn't even put past them), the sacrifice arc must be saved until s4 or until we have an edric storm. stannis was really goddamn uneasy about the whole thing in the first place, and i simply do not see him in any way, shape, or form considering shireen as a sacrifice while staying in character. personally, this entire thing fills me with UTTER DREAD & i just want to get it over with already.

[Nezzer]

unless d&d are aiming to pretty much ruin everyone in dragonstone (which, at this point, i wouldn't even put past them), the sacrifice arc must be saved until s4 or until we have an edric storm. stannis was really goddamn uneasy about the whole thing in the first place, and i simply do not see him in any way, shape, or form considering shireen as a sacrifice while staying in character. personally, this entire thing fills me with UTTER DREAD & i just want to get it over with already.

I feel the same way. I am terrified of what they might do to Stannis this season. I'll be really pissed if they turn him into a villain.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I feel the same way. I am terrified of what they might do to Stannis this season. I'll be really pissed if they turn him into a villain.

...Uh...you two need to reevaluate Stannis.

A: He Burns the kingdoms gods-(even if at the time he himself was dubious of power of R'hllor

B: He cheats on his wife.

C: The 'Son' he has MURDERS his brother.

D: A second son, we assume, kills Sir Courtnay Penrose.

E: He regularly Burns people at the stake.

F: "Your Grace, 100s will die..." "...thousands..."

Now clearly, Stannis is an ends justifies the means guy, and as far as "villains" go he is sailing close to the wind as it is.

I see them playing this up in the show. Remember also "The child is NOT CLEAN"...ok?

I see a tug of war between the need to burn Shireen which Stannis himself may see in the flames-as he has the site now, and his moral boundaries. Which lets be honest, have been stretched about as far as they can without Davos and therefore US abandoning him. The guy will do ALMOST anything to get the kingdoms, so what will he do to save the world?! (if hes duped into thinking hes the one to do it... maybe this is where the Nissa Nissa sacrifice will be brought in for him? that he must kill her with lightbringer...hmm..)

Regardless, Will Mel also know that Shireen needs to die? probably, the Myth says sacrifice is part of the forging of dawn and unless Edric plays a part in the larger story, we won't see him, and therefore we need the moral dilemma for Stannis, the death of one to save millions.

This has not been drilled home yet, nor how important the long war is, except in the original trailer for season three we got a glimpse and , I think, this shows us that it will be this season and the best way to do that? The ongoing Moral dilemma of Shireen Baratheon, and the sacrifice which Stannis must make to wake the dragon/become AA/be bawss.

[protar]

I agree with protar here (mostly), but there's one flaw in your season setup. Noone can learn to read in a week. So from going from saving Shireen to learning to read and reading the letter to Stannis seems a bit much. In the books, this takes quite a longer time.

I don't really see that as too much of a problem. In both the books and the show the timelines are somewhat mutable and not quite in synch between locations, so more time can be implied to have passed for Davos

[witches]

...Uh...you two need to reevaluate Stannis.

A: He Burns the kingdoms gods-(even if at the time he himself was dubious of power of R'hllor

B: He cheats on his wife.

C: The 'Son' he has MURDERS his brother.

D: A second son, we assume, kills Sir Courtnay Penrose.

E: He regularly Burns people at the stake.

F: "Your Grace, 100s will die..." "...thousands..."

Now clearly, Stannis is an ends justifies the means guy, and as far as "villains" go he is sailing close to the wind as it is.

I see them playing this up in the show. Remember also "The child is NOT CLEAN"...ok?

I see a tug of war between the need to burn Shireen which Stannis himself may see in the flames-as he has the site now, and his moral boundaries. Which lets be honest, have been stretched about as far as they can without Davos and therefore US abandoning him. The guy will do ALMOST anything to get the kingdoms, so what will he do to save the world?! (if hes duped into thinking hes the one to do it... maybe this is where the Nissa Nissa sacrifice will be brought in for him? that he must kill her with lightbringer...hmm..)

Regardless, Will Mel also know that Shireen needs to die? probably, the Myth says sacrifice is part of the forging of dawn and unless Edric plays a part in the larger story, we won't see him, and therefore we need the moral dilemma for Stannis, the death of one to save millions.

This has not been drilled home yet, nor how important the long war is, except in the original trailer for season three we got a glimpse and , I think, this shows us that it will be this season and the best way to do that? The ongoing Moral dilemma of Shireen Baratheon, and the sacrifice which Stannis must make to wake the dragon/become AA/be bawss.

uhh... okay.

1. he burns symbols of the seven gods of the south. yes???? in order to please his followers and melisandre and "try a new hawk" -- i just don't see how this makes him a villain????

2. other people in this series who cheat on their spouses: everyone. even davos, who is the most moral character. even NED, mr. honor, is presented as a cheater. so yeah this is really not villain territory.

3. the same brother who was going to murder him... the "stannis is mean to renly!!!" argument is by far the lamest anti-stannis stance you can probably take. this is war. renly meant to kill stannis with 10x the army. also i don't think it's very clear in either show or book whether or not stannis quite knew what was going on at the time the shadowbabyassassinfromhell was consummated, so, yeah.

4. yes... so? again, this is war.

5. he does not "regularly" burn people at stake. he is, time & time again, totally distressed by the fact that the queen's men, his soldiers, his queen, and melisandre are crying out for mostly traitors to be burned at stake. but stannis is not going around, grabbing townspeople, grabbing lannisters, taking victims, and burning them at stake. if you want to use this argument (burning people = villainy), do you want to take a closer look at dany?

6. being realistic doesn't make you a horrible human being, sorry.

[Im With Stannis]

I can't see this happening. They could just use an extra, saying they captured "one of Robert's bastards." Or they could use Gen dry. He doesn't HAVE to be with Lord Beric, does he?

People in GOT Westeros seem to move pretty easily. Remember Little fingers teleportation from KL to the Stormlands to Harrenhall last season? No reason they couldn't kidnap a bastard somewhere else. Or, they might cut the bastard angle altogether, just using some random traitor in his army he wants to sacrifice. I know Stannis isn't father of the year, but he's not that bad. That would severely degrade Stannis' character to TV audiences, making it impossible to make him likable again.

[protar]

I can't see this happening. They could just use an extra, saying they captured "one of Robert's bastards." Or they could use Gen dry. He doesn't HAVE to be with Lord Beric, does he?

People in GOT Westeros seem to move pretty easily. Remember Little fingers teleportation from KL to the Stormlands to Harrenhall last season? No reason they couldn't kidnap a bastard somewhere else. Or, they might cut the bastard angle altogether, just using some random traitor in his army he wants to sacrifice. I know Stannis isn't father of the year, but he's not that bad. That would severely degrade Stannis' character to TV audiences, making it impossible to make him likable again.

Again, providing there is simply the threat of him making the decision, rather than actually having him decide to sacrifice his daughter, it'll be fine imo. I think anyone would have doubts in such a situation.

[The Dragon has three heads]

uhh... okay.

1. he burns symbols of the seven gods of the south. yes???? in order to please his followers and melisandre and "try a new hawk" -- i just don't see how this makes him a villain????

2. other people in this series who cheat on their spouses: everyone. even davos, who is the most moral character. even NED, mr. honor, is presented as a cheater. so yeah this is really not villain territory.

3. the same brother who was going to murder him... the "stannis is mean to renly!!!" argument is by far the lamest anti-stannis stance you can probably take. this is war. renly meant to kill stannis with 10x the army. also i don't think it's very clear in either show or book whether or not stannis quite knew what was going on at the time the shadowbabyassassinfromhell was consummated, so, yeah.

4. yes... so? again, this is war.

5. he does not "regularly" burn people at stake. he is, time & time again, totally distressed by the fact that the queen's men, his soldiers, his queen, and melisandre are crying out for mostly traitors to be burned at stake. but stannis is not going around, grabbing townspeople, grabbing lannisters, taking victims, and burning them at stake. if you want to use this argument (burning people = villainy), do you want to take a closer look at dany?

6. being realistic doesn't make you a horrible human being, sorry.

Did I say he was a "baddie"? No, I said he was sailing close to the wind, I like the charactor, but, I would not be surprised if in the show he is set up in this way to be the one to make the hard calls for the greater good.

Renly was going to meet him and battle and defeat him most likely, Stannis used sorcery and assassination, sorry, those are two different things, and I think you write them off because you are an obvious supporter of his.

If Tywin had of used shadows and what not to kill the Starks people would be up in arms, but its ok because, it's just Renly? sorry, no.

[Independent George]

I agree that it's most likely they're merging Shireen & Edric Storm, and for good reasons in terms of production. It just worries me, though, because of how it changes Stannis' character. For all his faults, I don't think there's any chance in hell book!Stannis would kill his own daughter.

Basically, it changes Stannis in the same way that Jaime's character was altered when he killed Alton on the show. The story ends up progressing in the same way as the books, but the internal motivations of the characters become dramatically different. It's neither good or bad - it's matter of interpretation, and while I personally don't like it, I understand why it would happen. You just have to accept that the book and the show as existing in parallel universes.

[witches]

Renly was going to meet him and battle and defeat him most likely, Stannis used sorcery and assassination, sorry, those are two different things, and I think you write them off because you are an obvious supporter of his.

If Tywin had of used shadows and what not to kill the Starks people would be up in arms, but its ok because, it's just Renly? sorry, no.

people are and will be up in arms about tywin lannister no matter what he does. i don't see how that's a relevant comparison to make.

also, i really don't understand your argument? stannis being smart, knowing his enemy, and preparing an appropriate strategy to defeat said enemy (if you buy that he knew what the shadow assassin was capable of the whole time/what was going on, which you seem to) -- how is this an issue? what should he have done? sat around and waited and marched into his death knowingly? he'd be an idiot to do that.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Well you have the Freys breaking guest right at Tywins behest and you have stannis Kinslaying...with a shadow monster.

As far as vailllainous actions go, they're up there, yes?

And for TV having him have to consider what burning his daughter might gain him, if he's being pushed by others into it, but chooses to say sail for wall instead, I think is good for his charactor.

[Mr Fixit]

I just don't understand all this 'kinslaying' business directed at Stannis.

It's not like he had Renly killed for the lolz. Renly, as the younger brother, had no business wearing the crown while Stannis lives. Stannis made him an offer and Renly declined, ready and willing to take up arms against his older brother because hey, why not?

Stannis had every right to kill him, ugly as this whole situation is.

[Grandpa House]

I don't see how Selyse could remain/be a fervent follower of the Lord of Light and Melisandre if Mel is trying to convince Stannis to sacrifice his own child.

I think it's gonna be that Selyse is the one wanting to sacrifice her (we got the "Ice & Fire" quote from her in the teaser, showing she'll be a R'hloor fanatic like in the books) and Stannis will be more against it but ultimately agrees

[The Dragon has three heads]

Again, assanisnated, with a shadow. I'm not a huge renly fan, but I believe he would have captured stannis and spared him if he was able.

Shireen is their only heir and if selyse is crazy enough to burn her it would look better for stannis arguing that she is his only heir.

[witches]

I think it's gonna be that Selyse is the one wanting to sacrifice her (we got the "Ice & Fire" quote from her in the teaser, showing she'll be a R'hloor fanatic like in the books) and Stannis will be more against it but ultimately agrees

selyse is kind of a good mom, though. out of the two parents (and i'm not saying stannis doesn't love shireen, i'm saying he doesn't have much of an opportunity to show it), we see selyse looking out for shireen and holding her close and actively concerned with her. idk. i think it's uncharacteristic for either of them to even think about sacrificing their own daughter.

[polarbear]

It isn't necessary for Stannis to sacrifice his daughter for the storyline to work. They just have to establish that Davos thinks he MIGHT do it. Shireen is sickly young child, doomed to die from a long painful disease. Wouldn't it be better for her to die quickly as part of a glorious blazing sacrifice to return the dragons to earth? Davos could certainly buy it, especially after seeing the creepy leech scene.

If you are worried about Stannis`s reputation, it can easily be redeemed with a single line of dialogue in season 4 - "You thought I was going to do WHAT! you fingerless, onion headed moron!"

[Grandpa House]

selyse is kind of a good mom, though. out of the two parents (and i'm not saying stannis doesn't love shireen, i'm saying he doesn't have much of an opportunity to show it), we see selyse looking out for shireen and holding her close and actively concerned with her. idk. i think it's uncharacteristic for either of them to even think about sacrificing their own daughter.

The show could easily change aspects of how Selyse is in the books, though, since we haven't really seen her yet. And yeah I think it's uncharacteristic to have any character that's not psychotic to think about sacrificing their child. but at least with Selyse they can effectively portray her however they want at this point

[The Dragon has three heads]

selyse is kind of a good mom, though. out of the two parents (and i'm not saying stannis doesn't love shireen, i'm saying he doesn't have much of an opportunity to show it), we see selyse looking out for shireen and holding her close and actively concerned with her. idk. i think it's uncharacteristic for either of them to even think about sacrificing their own daughter.

Good points, and yeah she is usually the one actively referring to her as the heir where as we have stannis saying "until a son is born to me" or almost not being active in her upbringing at all-that we see-unlike say, eddard, even tywin. But perhaps those scenes are coming this season for Stannis.

I think the idea will be put out there by someone If indeed the two are

Combined....what about patch face...he's not cast yet as far I know...might they invent some princely background for him? Stretch to be sure, but, less moral Ambiguity, Same dilemma, burn an innocent to save the world.

Come to think of it, whos to say edric just won't be an extra(berric)who has no lines. But is referred to alot...

*shrug*

[Im With Stannis]

I wonder if we'll even get the leech scene. It seems like the show likes to cut or change my favorite scenes (Tower of Joy flashback and the House of the Undying).