What is Tywin's relationship to/opinion of Cersei?

[Theda Baratheon]

Umm.., is right but really, Ned should have sent his daughters home before confronting Cersei-he believed the woman had murdered Jon A. and crippled his son, yet expected her to slink off to Essos, tail between her legs once he confronted her?

At least we know where Sansa got her naivety from.

Yes, that was definitely a foolish thing to do, but the man is the Lord of Winterfell, he's no 'retard' as that person above has said. Just struck me as a ridiculous thing to say.

[Castel]

Ned wasn't being forced to give Sansa to Joffrey at all. You forget that when Robert came to Winterfell, a betrothal to the heir to the throne was not only a great and unexpected honour, but also something that Sansa herself was desperately looking forward to! She was going to be a princess and then a Queen - it was every little girl's dream going to come true. Even if Ned subsequently had his doubts, it would have been difficult / impossible to get out of a betrothal unless Robert and JOffrey agreed. If things had gone as normal, and Sansa had been married to Joffrey before he'd shown any of the nastier aspects to his character, there would have been nothing that Ned could have done about it at all - especially if Robert had still been alive. Sansa would have been the next Queen, and 'rescuing' her would have been an open act of treason.

The men of the north may want to rescue Sansa now, because her betrothal to Joffrey was broken, and because she is now married to a kiingslayer and kingslayer, wanted for all sorts of crimes. That is a very different matter than coming to 'rescue' a woman because her husband was brutal.

Ned and Tywin may have used slightly different criteria to choose or approve husbands for their daughters, but they would have been in exactly the same position if they found out that hubby was being nasty. Short of open war, there was little or nothig they could do.

Which was more or less the exact same position as Cersei. As I said, it's important to note that she only complains about being sold like a broodmare after Robert abuses her. She was happy with it at the time, hell, she was happy with it when Tywin first told her that she would be Queen as a child.

Exactly, I can't really take much of what that guy's just said seriously as it ended with Ned being called a borderline retard.

Are you talking about me? If so I never said that. I just think that Ned is exactly the type of person to go to war over. Do you think that attacking a king with the kingdoms behind him when you have no legal recourse is the act of a smart person? Like Robb Ned lets sentimentality and naivete get in the way of his decisions.

EDIT: I see that you weren't talking about me. Okay. Moving on :)

[Theda Baratheon]

Are you talking about me? If so I never said that. I just think that Ned is exactly the type of person to go to war over. Do you think that attacking a king with the kingdoms behind him when you have no legal recourse is the act of a smart person? Like Robb Ned lets sentimentality and naivete get in the way of his decisions.

EDIT: I see that you weren't talking about me. Okay. Moving on :)

I was about to reply, then noticed the edit, haha, OK.

[The Rise of Dorne]

''Emotional intelligence how stupid people make themselves feel better about being stupid''

Umm. lol OK

In my experience. Its usually what you say about someone like bill gates or whoever. They're brilliant but they lack emotional intelligence. Which is true, as far as it goes. But it doesn't make any difference. That's the only time that term is ever really used when describing someone who's smart but lack people skills. You never hear someone say, oh that person is really stupid AND lacks emotional intelligence. Or someone is a genius and separately they have emotional intelligence. Its an empty immeasurable platitude.

Why is Ned being called stupid? He only lost to Cersei because of Littlefinger, give him a break.

Exactly, I can't really take much of what that guy's just said seriously as it ended with Ned being called a borderline retard.

Ummmm.

Ned is being called stupid because he was stupid. Littlefinger was only the last of his many mistakes. He bumbled around until he got Robert killed. He brought hostages with him south. He brought too few men and then proceed to send them away while simultaneously discovering more danger. He could have had Catelyn ask for 1,000 Tully men when he sent her North. He could have listened to Littlefinger and not trusted him. He could have sent Sansa and Arya back home with Catelyn.

Come on guys. Ned being stupid, is patently demonstrable.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

In my experience. Its usually what you say about someone like bill gates or whoever. They're brilliant but they lack emotional intelligence. Which is true, as far as it goes. But it doesn't make any difference. That's the only time that term is ever really used when describing someone who's smart but lack people skills. You never hear someone say, oh that person is really stupid AND lacks emotional intelligence. Or someone is a genius and separately they have emotional intelligence. Its an empty immeasurable platitude.

Ned is being called stupid because he was stupid. Littlefinger was only the last of his many mistakes. He bumbled around until he got Robert killed. He brought hostages with him south. He brought too few men and then proceed to send them away while simultaneously discovering more danger. He could have had Catelyn ask for 1,000 Tully men when he sent her North. He could have listened to Littlefinger and not trusted him. He could have sent Sansa and Arya back home with Catelyn.

Come on guys. Ned being stupid, is patently demonstrable.

But isn't all that contigent on him knowing Cersei would turn out to be a vicious sociopath who'd kill Robert and orchestrate a Lannister Coup D'etat? How can anybody imagine that would happen? Ned was niave and a little too trusting but Stupid? His generosity and his soft spot for women and children got him killed. Hardly traits to call stupid. Not wanting childrens blood on your hands should be a good thing. Shouldn't it?

[Castel]

But isn't all that contigent on him knowing Cersei would turn out to be a vicious sociopath who'd kill Robert and orchestrate a Lannister Coup D'etat? How can anybody imagine that would happen? Ned was niave and a little too trusting but Stupid? His generosity and his soft spot for women and children got him killed. Hardly traits to call stupid. Not wanting childrens blood on your hands should be a good thing. Shouldn't it?

Ned thought that Cersei killed Jon Arryn. Ned was TOLD by Varys that there had been at least one attempt on Robert's life while he was in King's Landing. How can he not imagine that Cersei was trying to kill Robert?

[Winter's Knight]

But isn't all that contigent on him knowing Cersei would turn out to be a vicious sociopath who'd kill Robert and orchestrate a Lannister Coup D'etat? How can anybody imagine that would happen? Ned was niave and a little too trusting but Stupid? His generosity and his soft spot for women and children got him killed. Hardly traits to call stupid. Not wanting childrens blood on your hands should be a good thing. Shouldn't it?

But he thinks that she poisoned Jon A., pushed Bran and tried to manipulate Robert into fighting in the melee. He knows that her brother has already attacked him.

He knows that she is dangerous and still confronts her while his daughters are still in KL.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Ned thought that Cersei killed Jon Arryn. Ned was TOLD by Varys that there had been at least one attempt on Robert's life while he was in King's Landing. How can he not imagine that Cersei was trying to kill Robert?

Killing Jon Arryn and killing Robert are two drastically different things. Still point taken he should have handled things a little more cautiously. Not denying that at all. I'm just saying his mistakes are mistakes any trusting honest guy or gal would make. We all like to think we're masters of intrigue but in the scheme of things a lot of us would have made similar mistakes. The reason most of us would have lost our heads at the Sept of Baelor is because the bad guys don't have lines they won't cross and us normal folks do. I honestly believe given hindsight Ned would have made almost exactly the same choices. Does that make him stupid or just a guy with principles he's not willing to bend. Even if it meant his life. Remember in the whole story he's probably the only one in King's landing without blood on his hands.

[The Rise of Dorne]

But isn't all that contigent on him knowing Cersei would turn out to be a vicious sociopath who'd kill Robert and orchestrate a Lannister Coup D'etat? How can anybody imagine that would happen? Ned was niave and a little too trusting but Stupid? His generosity and his soft spot for women and children got him killed. Hardly traits to call stupid. Not wanting childrens blood on your hands should be a good thing. Shouldn't it?

What?

Her brother killed the last king. Her father is known to be on of the most ruthless men in Westeros. The sack of kings landing was a known atrocity. The first thing we learn about the Lannisters is that Ned is supposed to hate and mistrust them. What about the Lannisters that Ned knows would make him think they weren't always trying for a Coup D'etat?

Cersei told him it was Win Or Die. Then Ned refuses Renly's offer for a preemptive strike. He fails to evacuate his daughters, instead relying on Cersei to flee when she just told him she was in to the death? Generosity and sexism in a nest of viper sworn to kill you?

How can you not call that stupid?

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

Let's not forget that Ned planned on getting his daughters out of Kings Landing, he just timed it badly. He should have hustled them all out of there the moment he knew Jaime had fathered Cercei's children and before he confronted Cercei about it.

However, it's also true that Ned tried to dissuade Sansa from marrying Joffrey. As soon as he knew Joffrey wasn't Robert's son the betrothal was over in his mind. He told Sansa that he'd find her another who was better but she complained because she wanted Joffrey and then everything went pear shaped anyway and there was no way out.

I couldn't compare how Ned treated Sansa to how Tywin treated Cercei. Tywin used his daughter like a pawn and threw her into the midst of political intrigue, while Ned tried to protect his daughter from that and get her away from it. Yes, their society is patrichal but there are ways to do things without completely disregarding your daughter's happiness.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

What?

Her brother killed the last king. Her father is known to be on of the most ruthless men in Westeros. The sack of kings landing was a known atrocity. The first thing we learn about the Lannisters is that Ned is supposed to hate and mistrust them. What about the Lannisters that Ned knows would make him think they weren't always trying for a Coup D'etat?

Cersei told him it was Win Or Die. Then Ned refuses Renly's offer for a preemptive strike. He fails to evacuate his daughters, instead relying on Cersei to flee when she just told him she was in to the death? Generosity and sexism in a nest of viper sworn to kill you?

How can you not call that stupid?

Come on man, we're making assumptions that just because Ned doesn't like or trust them that he should automatically assume they're bent on world domination. I agree he missed all the signs but him just assuming Cersei was going to kill Robert is a stretch and even he knew Jamie pushing Bran was about protecting him and Cersei and not some power play. And the sack was just Tywin letting the Mountain run wild in the city again not about some power play. He should have got Arya and Sansa out of the KL. And I have no wordly idea why he said no to Renly either but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm in the minority on this one though.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Killing Jon Arryn and killing Robert are two drastically different things. Still point taken he should have handled things a little more cautiously. Not denying that at all. I'm just saying his mistakes are mistakes any trusting honest guy or gal would make. We all like to think we're masters of intrigue but in the scheme of things a lot of us would have made similar mistakes. The reason most of us would have lost our heads at the Sept of Baelor is because the bad guys don't have lines they won't cross and us normal folks do. I honestly believe given hindsight Ned would have made almost exactly the same choices. Does that make him stupid or just a guy with principles he's not willing to bend. Even if it meant his life. Remember in the whole story he's probably the only one in King's landing without blood on his hands.

But Ned is a Liege Lord, Warden of the North. His father and brother were murdered in kingslanding. He was a general. He doesn't have any excuse for not having his eyes open. Ned's principles are also stupid, but if wanted to keep them he shouldn't have become Hand of King, he probably shouldn't be a lord at all. Because it doesn't just cost Ned his life it costs, his wife, the lives of his children, his family, the lives of those who serve him and his ancestral home. And Ned knows the Lannisters are perfectly willing to kill his wife and children, he knows what happened to Elia, he saw the corpses of her children. So, he doesn't need hindsight. And yeah, that's stupid.

[Castel]

Even if it meant his life. Remember in the whole story he's probably the only one in King's landingwithout blood on his hands.

AS I said about Robb in another thread Ned is not just a man he's the state. He doesn't get to go down in a blaze of glory because it makes him feel good to be better than others. Actions like that cause the deaths of people other than himself.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

But Ned is a Liege Lord, Warden of the North. His father and brother were murdered in kingslanding. He was a general. He doesn't have any excuse for not having his eyes open. Ned's principles are also stupid, but if wanted to keep them he shouldn't have become Hand of King, he probably shouldn't be a lord at all. Because it doesn't just cost Ned his life it costs, his wife, the lives of his children, his family, the lives of those who serve him and his ancestral home. And Ned knows the Lannisters are perfectly willing to kill his wife and children, he knows what happened to Elia, he saw the corpses of her children. So, he doesn't need hindsight. And yeah, that's stupid.

Since when is having principles stupid? And could he really have said no to becoming hand? People take for granted that he had this choice to make and he simply chose wrong. When your king tells you to jump you ask how high. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Robert asking was a polite formality. I don't think he would have took no for an answer knowing what we know about Robert.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Come on man, we're making assumptions that just because Ned doesn't like or trust them that he should automatically assume they're bent on world domination. I agree he missed all the signs but him just assuming Cersei was going to kill Robert is a stretch and even he knew Jamie pushing Bran was about protecting him and Cersei and not some power play. And the sack was just Tywin letting the Mountain run wild in the city again not about some power play. He should have got Arya and Sansa out of the KL. And I have no wordly idea why he said no to Renly either but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm in the minority on this one though.

Varys already told Ned, the Lannister were trying to kill Robert. Jamie is gone, Tywin isn't there, what other Lannisters could be trying to kill Robert if not Cersei. And she obviously has to kill Robert if she isn't going to leave. There's absolutely no reason for Ned not to think Cersei would kill Robert. Her Brother killed the last king. He thinks she killed the last Hand of the King. Jamie already attacked him.

He has to be stupid. That's the only plausible explanation.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Since when is having principles stupid? And could he really have said no to becoming hand? People take for granted that he had this choice to make and he simply chose wrong. When your king tells you to jump you ask how high. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Robert asking was a polite formality. I don't think he would have took no for an answer knowing what we know about Robert.

I believe I said Ned's principles are stupid.

Of course Robert would have taken no, for an answer. But with Ned's principles he should be in a monastery somewhere.

[Theda Baratheon]

Ned is was the fucking Lord of Winterfell; he knows exactly how to do that, he knows exactly how to garner respect from his peoples.

He really is NOT a 'retard'.

Just because he made some stupid decisions in a City completely foreign to his home, in an environment he was completely not used to DOES NOT MAKE HIM AS A CHARACTER 'totally stupid'.

:dunno:

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Ned is was the fucking Lord of Winterfell; he knows exactly how to do that, he knows exactly how to garner respect from his peoples.

He really is NOT a 'retard'.

Just because he made some stupid decisions in a City completely foreign to his home, in an environment he was completely not used to DOES NOT MAKE HIM AS A CHARACTER 'totally stupid'.

:dunno:

:bowdown: My thoughs exactly.

[Arkantos]

Ned made a fair few of those 'bad' decisions based on information from his beloved wife, which he had no reason to disbelieve.

[Theda Baratheon]

:bowdown: My thoughs exactly.

:cheers:

Thank goodness for that; I really was becoming wholly exasperated then.