Did Dany truly love Khal Drogo?

[Little Wing]

I think she did.

[Kittykatknits]

This relationship is a perfect example of why I don't agree with the notion that authorial intent should be how we define our understanding of our work. I know that Martin wrote the two of them as an example of a love story so I accept that as fact in this sense. But, it does not change that it is problematic in several respects. To be frank, the age difference is the least of them. But, she was sold in to this relationship by her brother, with no say so. Drogo ignores her except at night when he has his needs. She learns to sexually satisfy him after nights of crying in to her pillow and thinking about death. And suddenly this is a great love story? I'm not buying what is being sold here.

And I'm surprised people who have only seen the TV show think of this as something romantic. The rape was pretty clear on screen, what's romantic about that?

[PatrickStormborn]

I think GRRM would argue that she did and writes her character from that perspective.

However, the whole idea of their relationship just makes me ill. Lady Sansa Stark and Winter's Knight (ETA: and Kittykatknits) have covered most of my points, but I just want to add that this isn't just about "culture". Yes, for Dothraki it is culturally acceptable to rape 13 year old girls. That doesn't make it right. There's a reason it's illegal in most countries for young children to engage in sex (particularly with older adults).

Furthermore, it needs to be said that even in the Middle Ages it was uncommon for girls that age to have sex. The average age of a woman getting married for the first time in Medieval England was 18. There were certainly cases of women having children at a young age (Margaret Beaufort for one), although this was the exception rather than the rule as it made very little sense to increase the likelihood of infant mortality by making the birthing process even more difficult (after all, Margaret Beaufort became unable to have children due to complications birthing Henry VII).

[65536ob]

I saw the tv show before i read the books so i didn't visualise the age difference to be that great.

I don't have that muc of a problem with the difference in age.

I think daenerys orginally disliked drogo but then fell in love with him, I don't know whether it was stockholm syndrome but i believe that she truly fell in love with khal drogo and the reason isn't all that important

[Angmar]

Yes, she did love him...Once she stopped being afraid of him, and took control in the situation, and mounted him in bed...They came to a relationship of equals. Drogo was surely needed, if not for him or the Dothraki culture Dany would still have been a meek girl afraid of even breathing.

[RhaenysBee]

Furthermore, it needs to be said that even in the Middle Ages it was uncommon for girls that age to have sex. The average age of a woman getting married for the first time in Medieval England was 18. There were certainly cases of women having children at a young age (Margaret Beaufort for one), although this was the exception rather than the rule as it made very little sense to increase the likelihood of infant mortality by making the birthing process even more difficult (after all, Margaret Beaufort became unable to have children due to complications birthing Henry VII).

F.I.C.T.I.O.N. The most romantic story in the entire history of literature is that of two 14 year olds who have sex and get married and commit suicide. I seriously don't see why people hate GRRM for this thing.

Yes, she did love him...Once she stopped being afraid of him, and took control in the situation, and mounted him in bed...They came to a relationship of equals. Drogo was surely needed, if not for him or the Dothraki culture Dany would still have been a meek girl afraid of even breathing.

Exactly. :agree: (where is like button?)

[PatrickStormborn]

F.I.C.T.I.O.N. The most romantic story in the entire history of literature is that of two 14 year olds who have sex and get married and commit suicide. I seriously don't see why people hate GRRM for this thing.

1) I was criticising the lack of awareness of medieval marriage in the section you quoted, not GRRM (although it should be noted that the series often lacks historical realism that he uses as justification).

2) I don't think anyone who knows anything about Romeo and Juliet would call it "the most romantic story in the entire history of literature". You just described it yourself, so surely you're aware that it's most definitely not romantic?

[Winter's Knight]

F.I.C.T.I.O.N. The most romantic story in the entire history of literature is that of two 14 year olds who have sex and get married and commit suicide. I seriously don't see why people hate GRRM for this thing.

1. Juliet was thirteen, Romeo's age is not specified, to the best of my knowledge.
   
   
2. From Romeo and Juliet:
   

   Capulet:
   But saying o'er what I have said before:
   My child is yet a stranger in the world;
   She hath not seen
   the change of fourteen years,Let two more summers wither in their pride,
   Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride.
   Paris:
   Younger than she are happy mothers made.
   Capulet:
   And too soon marr'd are those so early made...

[Nerolunar]

I think she did, because it seemed like he actually cared a bit for her, while Viserys only wanted to go back to Westeros. He invited her to the Dothraki, and she learned from him.

[RhaenysBee]

1) I was criticising the lack of awareness of medieval marriage in the section you quoted, not GRRM (although it should be noted that the series often lacks historical realism that he uses as justification).

2) I don't think anyone who knows anything about Romeo and Juliet would call it "the most romantic story in the entire history of literature". You just described it yourself, so surely you're aware that it's most definitely not romantic?

1) I wasn't saying you were criticizing GRRM, I meant it in general. And since this is still a fiction and not a history novel, I still can't see why GRRM is being blamed for not being historically realistic. With dragons and zombies and wargs, how can you expect accurate historical society as gackground?

2) It's not romantic because they died? All literature romances that I liked sort of ended with death. That doesn't make them less romantic. And if a romance does not end with death, but pink American dream, the author is bullied because it's clichéic and Mary Sue and all the rest. Readers are just never satisfied. Never mind. I think we have a very different understanding of what's romantic, so there's not really a point in trying to convince the other...

1. Juliet was thirteen, Romeo's age is not specified, to the best of my knowledge.
   

1. Daenerys was thirteen too. And as far as I know they were about the same age (Romeo and Juliet).

2. I was not talking about marriage. Romeo and Juliet had sex after their wedding and that was what I originally meant to specify. That it's really not terrible deal for a thirteen year old fictional character to have sex. And even more so: the point is that Romeo and Juliet aren't bullied for having sex or getting married at 13/14/whatever young age, so I don't see why people rave about Daenerys having sex at 13...

[Kittykatknits]

1) I wasn't saying you were criticizing GRRM, I meant it in general. And since this is still a fiction and not a history novel, I still can't see why GRRM is being blamed for not being historically realistic. With dragons and zombies and wargs, how can you expect accurate historical society as gackground?

I don't think this is what PatrickStormborn is saying. Earlier in this thread, an argument was made that the age difference is not an issue because it is historically realistic. He was providing evidence that this argument does not hold up.

[RhaenysBee]

I don't think this is what PatrickStormborn is saying. Earlier in this thread, an argument was made that the age difference is not an issue because it is historically realistic. He was providing evidence that this argument does not hold up.

I understand that but I was saying that you don't need to justify things in a fiction by proving it historically realistic. It is fiction. It doesn't need to be historically realistic.

[Winter's Knight]

I understand that but I was saying that you don't need to justify things in a fiction by proving it historically realistic. It is fiction. It doesn't need to be historically realistic.

You're arguing with the wrong poster then-Pat was pointing out that defending Dany/Drogo as historically accurate is stupid because it isn't.

What he-and I and Kits and Lady Sansa are arguing-is that this is a highly problematic relationship that is disturbing on several levels and to characterise it as a love story is not condoneable.

There is a place for rape-is-love fantasies but that place-in my opinion anyway-is not in a fantasy series that is already dealing with some rather problematic issues. It is rendered even more problematic when you consider the fact that Dany and Cersei's marriages follow a similar pattern except that Cersei refuses to try and appease Robert and thus continues to suffer his abuse. Whatever the authorial intent may have been, I did get the imppresion on a reread that Dany showed the "right" way to handle an abusive relationship while Cersei chose the "wrong" way.

[RhaenysBee]

You're arguing with the wrong poster then-Pat was pointing out that defending Dany/Drogo as historically accurate is stupid because it isn't.

What he-and I and Kits and Lady Sansa are arguing-is that this is a highly problematic relationship that is disturbing on several levels and to characterise it as a love story is not condoneable.

There is a place for rape-is-love fantasies but that place-in my opinion anyway-is not in a fantasy series that is already dealing with some rather problematic issues. It is rendered even more problematic when you consider the fact that Dany and Cersei's marriages follow a similar pattern except that Cersei refuses to try and appease Robert and thus continues to suffer his abuse. Whatever the authorial intent may have been, I did get the imppresion on a reread that Dany showed the "right" way to handle an abusive relationship while Cersei chose the "wrong" way.

Well, first off, I'm not arguing with anybody. I don't exactly see myself going up against you, he, Lady Sansa and Kitkat. I don't debates I know I will lose, you just outnumber me, so I'll not go into how Drogo and Daenerys are not a "rape fantasy". I didn't find Drogo and Daenerys troubling, I really liked them from the very start of the series and I won't really admit to being a sexually disturbed psycho, socio, whatevero whatever (boy, I so make sense tonight...) because I know loads of people who agree with my point. Well, we are different, we need to deal with that.

And for like the fifth time. All I said was that historical realism or unrealism can't be an argument either against or for Drogo and Daenerys or any other relationship like that in general, because A Song of Ice and Fire is a fiction. Basically I never even disagreed with PatrickStormborn in this question.

[Aliana]

I find it very hard to say...In the beginning, she clearly hated it. Then there comes a time when I would go for full-fletched Stockholm syndrom, e.g. when we read "she even started to find pleasure in her nights" or something like that. I mean, technically, Drogo is still raping her. That pretty much disgusted me... In the end I think their relationship becomes more balanced, and there is a lot of mutual respect between them. If I'd call it love, though...I don't know...maybe a deep caring friendship with benefits? As I said, hard to say for me.

As for the age difference: I'd probably freak if my 13-year-old daughter would bring home a much older boyfriend/man, but historically it's not that far-fetched.

As for her being 13 and having sex: I had enough class mates who's virginity never made it past 14. And a few weeks ago I confiscated a cell phone from one of my fifth-graders that had porn on it...I lost my last illusion right then and there...

[Rawien]

I do find it to be a pretty nasty relationship as others have said above, whether it's "historically accurate" or not, (even though this is a fantasy nation so it's hard to say it's historically accurate,) I do think it's horribly dysfunctional. I think it's clear from the text that Dany does derive some strength from the relationship and towards the end eventually doesn't feel oppressed by Drogo any more but I believe that she forgot the trauma of the beginning of the relationship simply because she was used to trauma and abuse. Viserys abused her for her whole life it seemed, and maybe not to the extreme that Drogo did but she was used to being treated pretty awfully by her brother. And she still loved him, or felt like she had to because he was her brother.

I personally believe it is a combination of her abusive past and her age that means she believes she loves him. But sadly she doesn't really know any better. While I feel it was abusive it did make Dany who she was and despite the setbacks she has become a stronger person and looks back fondly on Drogo.

Poor girl :/

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Another topic that could led to great discussion, but sadly it will not happen. :crying:

Has a complete analysis of their relationship been done? I feel it could be awesome if done correctly.

I couldn't find anything, although I probably didn't look hard enough because I was on my phone.

[TheMysteriousOne]

drogo did court her until she said yes. besides, just because our culture doesnt approve of someone so young having sex doesnt mean that it is truly right or wrong. the sambia tribe in papua new guinea practice ritualistic pedophilial homosexual fellatio with the young men in their tribe. to us its disgusting, but to them, its a normal thing. we need to respect the cultures of dark skinned people.

Dark skinned people? Seriously.

[willy york]

Dark skinned people? Seriously.

yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think so. I think that it was Stockholm syndrome not love.