Did Dany truly love Khal Drogo?

[Naathi Prince]

Apparently not ancient history.

The Greeks and Romans aren't white.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

so who is this all mighty authority that determines when a culture is seeing things or doing thing "wrongly"? is it you?

It is we, indeed. We as in; the whole world. I mean, you can hardly respect raping 13-year-olds, child-offerings, child-marriages etc. There are some basic human values, not everything needs to be put in a cultural perspective. You could perhaps ask how many of those Pakistani girls agree with them being married off at the age of 12 to a man who could be their father, regardless whether it's their culture or not.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The age difference doesn't bother me TOO much and I don't have a strong aversion to the relationship, many of the arranged marriages in this series are much the same in the regards of age and circumstance, so to dislike this one much more doesn't make a lot of sense to me. However, I appreciate the ''stockholme syndrone'' opinions, because that makes a lot of sense, but I also feel she did love him and he did allow her to become her own person and mature sexually and as a woman. That said, no; I don't like the thought of a young girl being sold off to a stranger and having to have sex, but I do also believe she came to love him in her own way. And reading about the start of the relationship when she was in a lot of pain and crying made me very uncomfortable, but she deals with the situation and although I detest the fact anyone would have to 'accept' this, she does and then she realises this is a completely different culture to her own and that he is not an evil person.

Love does not have any rules, there is not one type of love, there are many, many different types of love and I do think Dany loved Drogo.

I can perfectly accept people having different opinions and I also do not see this as a disney romance (those arguing about the fairy tale romance might want to look up some actual, original fairy tales and you'll see how gruesome they can be ;))

I do think it was a complicated relationship and it wasn't a simple love, but I do think there was love in this marriage. She certainly grew to love and appreciate the Dothraki culture.

My thoughts exactly!

[TheMysteriousOne]

The Greeks and Romans aren't white.

Tell that to the Greeks and Romans.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

That didn't really occur till the Industrial Revolution, which despite its horrors massively reduced hunger and disease for Europe.

Industrial Revolution was from end 18th-beginning 19th century. But we are going really, really offtopic now.

[Arkantos]

The Greeks and Romans aren't white.

Yes they were. Tanned, but white, we're descended from them fgs.

[Naathi Prince]

Tell that to the Greeks and Romans.

Like I said before, ancient Greece and Rome considered those who lived to the north of them (white Europeans) to be barbarians.

[Naathi Prince]

Yes they were. Tanned, but white, we're descended from them fgs.

Tell that to my Italian ancestors who came to America. I assure you, no one thought they were white when they showed up here.

[Arkantos]

Barbarian basically means non-greek, of course they'd consider everyone outside of Greece a barbarian :bang:

[TheMysteriousOne]

Like I said before, ancient Greece and Rome considered those who lived to the north of them (white Europeans) to be barbarians.

The definition of race changes depending on the culture and time period. Nowadays, they are considered white. Also, what about the modern day Greeks and Southern Italians/Romans? They're obviously white...

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm doing my degree in Ancient History (primarily concerning the Romans and the Ancient Greeks) but I'm too tired to get into a discussion about what could be deemed as white and what couldn't.

Safe to say they are Mediterranean peoples that would have dark hair and olive skin (especially the Greeks) the Germanic appearances would have came with the Roman Empire vastly, vastly growing in size.

Yes, Italians and Greeks are White Europeans - they are White. They are considered White today and are much the same as the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks.

[Theda Baratheon]

Barbarian basically means non-greek, of course they'd consider everyone outside of Greece a barbarian :bang:

Yes. Barbarian means a non-Greek as they thought the different languages sounded really bizarre.

[willy york]

Like I said before, ancient Greece and Rome considered those who lived to the north of them (white Europeans) to be barbarians.

octavian augustus himself was described by suetonius as having grey eyes and blonde hair. thats pretty white.

[Naathi Prince]

Barbarian basically means non-greek, of course they'd consider everyone outside of Greece a barbarian :bang:

well duh, but there's a clear delineation between, for example, Persians and Phoenicians, and the completely unorganized cavemen to the north. Alexander the Great went east to conquer, not north, because that is where the challenge was.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I don't believe that willy york is asking any of us respect or condone crimes against humanity. I do believe that they have had a hard time explaining their view, and has at times used a poor choice of words.

I think original argument was that it's unfair to automatically dismiss Drogo and Dany's relationship based on the issue of age. It may seem to many of us that no female could be happily involved in a relationship at such a young age, but our cultural perception may not be the correct way to view the situation, because it forces us to place a blanket view on all young girls in relationships with older men. There are places in the world where girls as young as 14 enter into these relationships and they consider themselves happy and content. Who are we to tell her that she is mistaken because she is only 14 and her marriage is automatically a crime and unacceptable?

Now if you take the view that whenever Dany and Drogo had sex he was effectively brutalizing Dany, then of course you would dismiss that idea that there was anything romantic or loving about their relationship.

ETA: I refuse to join the race debate. :)

[Theda Baratheon]

yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.

Whilst I am actually quite sympathetic to what you are seemingly TRYING to say I strongly believe there is a difference between cultural morality and some things which are just immoral in human nature.

Other cultures should be respected and it is not up to people to determine how other cultures should act, but when some cultures routinely rape their women (and believe that women want to be raped and enjoy being raped) and when they mutilate young children's genitalia - this is something that far surpasses ''respecting what other cultures do'' and should become something that is immoral to human nature.

Humans are evolutionary creatures, our behaviour can develop and grow and this is not me looking an non-white peoples and deeming myself superior to them in any way, it is just me believing that some acts should be considered universally immoral.

[Kolantero]

1) lol @ "greeks and romans were not white"

2) I do believe that Dany truly loved Drogo

3) Not liking something or disagreeing with it is one thing but actually feeling entitled to say what is "wrong" and "right" for the author to write because of what you judge "problematic"... Bah

[Éadaoin]

octavian augustus himself was described by suetonius as having grey eyes and blonde hair. thats pretty white.

I'm not arguing against you because I just came in and didn't read back to see what you guys are debating, but just wanted to say that non-white people can be blonde and light-eyed. Of course, it doesn't help that "whiteness" changes by time and place. I get confused by the concept myself.

[Arkantos]

well duh, but there's a clear delineation between, for example, Persians and Phoenicians, and the completely unorganized cavemen to the north. Alexander the Great went east to conquer, not north, because that is where the challenge was.

That's not the point, Greeks & Romans were white, hell, you could even argue that north Africans were white.

Alexander planned to also go south, but then he died, he might've went north afterwards, but he couldn't go everywhere at once could he?

Disregarding northern Europeans as complete unorganized just shows that you haven't really done any reading on the subject, a lack of large empires/high tech is not the same as a lack of shared culture or organisation.

I'm not arguing against you because I just came in and didn't read back to see what you guys are debating, but just wanted to say that non-white people can be blonde and light-eyed. Of course, it doesn't help that "whiteness" changes by time and place. I get confused by the concept myself.

There's something like a handful of examples of non-white peoples with such hair variations and none in the vicinity of Europe that I can remember.

[Naathi Prince]

The point isn't the exact skin color of the Greeks and Romans, its that the British and Germanic people who were currently immediately think of when people say "white" were at the time entirely culturally different than the Roman and Greek "advanced" civilizations. I am just pointing out the absolute silliness of the idea of european cultural superiority when Germany and Britain were never at the forefront of development until recently. The Greek and Roman tie-in primarily exists to encourage euro-centric cultural beliefs.