Heresy 40

[Toccs]

It's interesting that in aCoK, the Warlocks of Qarth are referred to as "Blue Shadows". I haven't really got a fully developed line of thinking on this, but I do have a strong feeling that the Warlocks are an important factor in all of this and they have intimate links to Dany, Euron and Sam who are all major factors in the Game of Ice and Fire.

Maybe the House of the Undying was on top of another one of those magical hinges.

[yestoitall]

Really like where this is going...

Feel like all the layers are beginning to make sense with a coherent overarching world view. Sam with Hooters has the key with the understanding of the behaviour of the Others.

No wonder we're on a new thread every 4 days!

[Sojourner]

These threads are awesome, thank you all for making them.

And as for something very loosely related, I'm currently reading a series of books called "the Dark is Rising" which involves a character who is albino, whose name "Bran" is apparently Welsh for Raven, and who is of very special Royal Blood. Seems familiar.

Also, sorta related to Sam in the above talk of conversion.

Is the Game of Thrones essentially an expression of the side of "fire"? It just struck me how familiar Mel's talk of the trappings of power and Varys talking to Tyrion about power are, and the talk of Tyrion's shadow, and Mel's talk of Shadows.

The Game of Thrones destroys a lot. The Game of Thrones consumes the lives of the common folk through war, and the strength of the noble Houses through intrigue and war as well. The constant struggles of the Game of Thrones in the south is like a fire which consumes.

The Targs through an overdose of literal fire manage to lessen this to a degree, but now that they are gone from controlling the south (and i am remembering that the North did bend the knee. I remember the Blackfyres too), the Game of Thrones is burning strong once again. But inversely, the Watch has grown weaker over the years, so did the Targs have an adverse effect on that and consequently have an adverse effect on any balance/imbalance between ice and fire? Or was it their fall which weakened the Watch?

But anyway, the viewing of the south and the Game of Thrones as fire, makes the devotion of the Starks to their traditions of "Winter is Coming" and "always a Stark in Winterfell" more interesting, the Starks are preserving their traditions. They are ice and they aren't changing.

When the wolves come south, under old Lord Rickard and Lord Eddard, they are betraying the preservation of ice, and are burnt up in the Game of Thrones. and also burn up the Targs through Lyanna and Rhaegar.

How this relates to the Others and the Watch, i've no idea.

Again, probably nothing new for those under the sun of Heresy, but it just hit me hard about how GRRM has laced the series with ideas that might come into play as actual forces.

[armidil0]

It's interesting that in aCoK, the Warlocks of Qarth are referred to as "Blue Shadows". I haven't really got a fully developed line of thinking on this, but I do have a strong feeling that the Warlocks are an important factor in all of this and they have intimate links to Dany, Euron and Sam who are all major factors in the Game of Ice and Fire.

Maybe the House of the Undying was on top of another one of those magical hinges.

Honestly they seem like the worlds magical punching bags. I don't even know why they exist. Dany could have had those visions from a Red priest staring into fire.

That is if they really don't play another role.

[Black Wolf Smith]

With the Server down all last night, I missed a great deal. I had to fast read to catch up. Really like the Sam Slayer as Last Hero

If there is a point to this comparison, it is to challenge the expectation that the Last Hero/ Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai reborn is or rather was the mighty warrior of prophecy. Here we have Sam, fat and cowardly Sam, but the only character so far to slay one of the Others. As Jon tells him, he's actually done a lot and survived worse, but we know what was really going on and how the slaying was an accident.

GRRM has said a lot about avoiding the usual fantasy tropes and the unreliability of stories and legends. Sam isn't Conan the Barbarian and never will be and I think his story arc is telling us that there won't be a mighty warrior with a big sword riding a dragon to victory. What's going to happen is going to be a lot grittier and less heroic.

While less Heroic, no less true. I think there is a real possiblity that whether or not true, it could be the case that stories told about Sam the Slayer will be remembered, and grow into mythical proportions, much like those of the Last Hero. Prehaps that is the point, GRRM has long told us that the LH, AA, and other heroes of legend are not what we are told. So Sam being far less then a hero, being saddled with the title, and legacy would infact be what GRRM is doing.

As I pointed out at the end of H39, I feel that Sam is (in addition to other things, of course) Martin's take on/homage to Sam in LotR--the sidekick to the hero without whom the hero would not have succeeded but who goes unheralded by the rest of the world; the unsung hero character.

Without Samwise, Frodo fails. Samwise gets Frodo back on track 3 or 4 times.

Again, Sam being saddled as "The" hero would be a nod to JRRT and then take it in the opposite direction.

[Toccs]

Without Samwise, Frodo fails.

Frodo did fail, although your point still stands.

[Mace Cooterian]

It's interesting that in aCoK, the Warlocks of Qarth are referred to as "Blue Shadows". I haven't really got a fully developed line of thinking on this, but I do have a strong feeling that the Warlocks are an important factor in all of this and they have intimate links to Dany, Euron and Sam who are all major factors in the Game of Ice and Fire.

Maybe the House of the Undying was on top of another one of those magical hinges.

I had to think a little bit on the Warlocks ties to Sam. After Black Crown posted the Sam (Unlikely) Last Hero post I searched character references on Sam Tarly. Was shocked to find out that warlocks from Qaarth had bathed him in aurochs blood

As for the blue shadows I thiought this had more to do with the potion that they drink that turns their lips blue. I could be off on this one.

On the magical hinge..maybe...maybe just a portal (a look see)???

[Toccs]

I had to think a little bit on the Warlocks ties to Sam. After Black Crown posted the Sam (Unlikely) Last Hero post I searched character references on Sam Tarly. Was shocked to find out that warlocks from Qaarth had bathed him in aurochs blood

I started a thread in the general forum many moons ago about the Warlocks and Sam. Randyll Tarly doesn't seem to me like the type of guy who would believe in magic much less seek out some Warlocks to make his boy a good warrior and Warlocks don't seem to be a common sight around Westeros. So maybe the Warlocks actually approached Randyll. Which would beg the question of, what did they want with Sam and what exactly was the ritual they performed on him? We know their magic is real, and the ritual clearly didn't make him brave so what happened?

As it happens Sam is now in Oldtown which is about to be beset by Euron who, wouldn't you know it, has some Warlocks on his ship with him.

As for the blue shadows I thiought this had more to do with the potion that they drink that turns their lips blue. I could be off on this one.

Yeah I get why they are called "blue", but I still think it's interesting they are referred to as Blue Shadows, which immediately puts one in mind of the White Shadows up North or the Black Shadows out East.

[Mace Cooterian]

On a slightly different tangent; I've been mentally taking inventory of references to crying, weeping and tears at the Wall. It's probably nothing more than me spending too much time in the right side of my mind; but:

1. Bran IV (ASoS). Bran passing through the Black Gate..."and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear".
   
2. Jon XIII (ADwD). The assassination attempt on Jon..."Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch"".
   
3. Then there are the numerous references to the wall itself; where it appears to be "weeping".
   

There could be more references that I've overlooked. This probably doesn't amount to anything (sort of like finding a horn and dragonglass in the snow... :dunno: ); just an observation on my part.

[Mace Cooterian]

As it happens Sam is now in Oldtown which is about to be beset by Euron who, wouldn't you know it, has some Warlocks on his ship with him.

How coincidential. I for one have not really bought into the notion that Euron is on the ship with Vic headed to Slaver's Bay. Especially not disguised as the Dusky Woman (if so, then they will need to redefine the whole glamoring portion for me).

[Toccs]

I don't think the Euron = Dusky Woman is a genuine theory, it's just gained so much fame because it's fun and delightfully twisted.

[Mace Cooterian]

I started a thread in the general forum many moons ago about the Warlocks and Sam. Randyll Tarly doesn't seem to me like the type of guy who would believe in magic much less seek out some Warlocks to make his boy a good warrior and Warlocks don't seem to be a common sight around Westeros. So maybe the Warlocks actually approached Randyll. Which would beg the question of, what did they want with Sam and what exactly was the ritual they performed on him? We know their magic is real, and the ritual clearly didn't make him brave so what happened?

This had me thinking about the ritual castaration of Vary's. Not sure that we have a lot of detail about the ritual perfomred on Sam; but Vary's is quite forth coming on his experience. Not sure who performed the ritual on Vary's; don't believe it was warlocks (or was it).

It's almost like the two are related. Perhaps in the fantasy world of GRRM you have groups (entities) that perform rituals (for the lack of a better world) on individuals and send them out into the world....sort of like Manchurian Candidates. I guess you could even parlay these into what the White Walkers are doing with wights. Might be a stretch on my part...but hey, it's fantasy afterall.

[Mace Cooterian]

I don't think the Euron = Dusky Woman is a genuine theory, it's just gained so much fame because it's fun and delightfully twisted.

Something that elegant can't go without being said twice.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I just noticed that tonight (in the US/Canada) is the Full Wolf Moon, and next month is Full Snow Moon.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I just noticed that tonight (in the US/Canada) is the Full Wolf Moon, and next month is Full Snow Moon.

And March is the Storm Moon :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_moon#Full_moon_names

[jon rr stark]

How does the FM (jaqen h'ghar) in oldtown fit with Sam. Remember Sam called at Bravvos and stayed for a while. Also having none other than the infamous Targ Aemon on his last voyage. Now that cannot have failed to be noticed by the FM. So Sam is on a mission to find how to stop the others effectively. Has Jaqen h'ghar been sent to oldtown to assist Sam or indeed observe for the time being. Jaqen h'ghar must be interested in Ayra's brothers sidekick. Since he has got there he mysteriously has done nothing but sit and watch, and just happens to be in the same group as Sam.

So Sam works out what lightbringer is or some important stuff. Jaqen h'ghar becomes his escort/ guide back to the wall. He gains sams trust by revealing he effectively saved Arya and also knows where she is.

How about sam turning up at the wall armed with serious knowledge and an FM and trained up Arya in a bad mood. 'Ok which one of you stabbed my brother, here have the pointy end.'

[Capon Breath]

I don't think the Euron = Dusky Woman is a genuine theory, it's just gained so much fame because it's fun and delightfully twisted.

It can't be true as Payat pree = Euron (my pet crackpot)

[Black Crow]

These threads are awesome, thank you all for making them.

And as for something very loosely related, I'm currently reading a series of books called "the Dark is Rising" which involves a character who is albino, whose name "Bran" is apparently Welsh for Raven, and who is of very special Royal Blood. Seems familiar.

A common origin here in the Mabinogion :cool4:

[Black Crow]

This had me thinking about the ritual castaration of Vary's. Not sure that we have a lot of detail about the ritual perfomred on Sam; but Vary's is quite forth coming on his experience. Not sure who performed the ritual on Vary's; don't believe it was warlocks (or was it).

It's almost like the two are related. Perhaps in the fantasy world of GRRM you have groups (entities) that perform rituals (for the lack of a better world) on individuals and send them out into the world....sort of like Manchurian Candidates. I guess you could even parlay these into what the White Walkers are doing with wights. Might be a stretch on my part...but hey, it's fantasy afterall.

Players and pawns as practiced in the Game of Thrones. The irony of course being that Littlefinger who prides himself as a player par excellence in the Game of Thrones may turn out to be a mere pawn in the Game of Ice and Fire.

[Black Crow]

1. The books do suggest the CotF were hit pretty hard by the Others. There is good reason to believe that's true, too.

For instance, notice that the entrance to the cave of the CotF is warded against wights (Others foot soldiers). Is this a coincidence? I doubt it. Others/wights and CotF do not get along at all.

No, and thrice no. There is absolutely no evidence in the books that the Children were hit let alone hit hard. They conspicuously don't figure in Old Nan's (or anybody else's stories) of the Long Night, except to help the Last Hero when he's on the run, and neither Leaf nor anyone else in the cave even mentions them as a threat. True there's that minefield outside, but some of us have a very shrewd suspicion its there to protect the cave mouth - and discourage certain parties from leaving.

The fact that the Wall is warded in just the same way against animate corpses (cf. Coldhands who cannot use the Black Gate) strongly suggests that the CotF did, indeed, help the First Men build the Wall.

Magic is magic. A heretical interpretation of the Wall is that it isn't a defensive structure (and if it is its a pretty crap one) but a demarcation line between the realms and as such the "warding" is simply a matter of the magic not working properly beyond it. We really need to know more about how it works, but on this thread we do try to look beyond the simplistic stuff.