Why does no-one invade the iron islands?

[Theda Baratheon]

LOL. I was going to say because there is nothing there, but I see many others have beaten me to it. Something about House Greyjoy's words I feel is a bit of a disingenuous, they do not sow because they cannot sow.

:lol:

[Magic 8 Ball]

The Barbary Pirate states would be a good historical analogy in this case. Why did they practice piracy? Because their lands weren't going to generate much income, and they had access to the sea.

Any number of powers at the time could have conquered them, but why? You'd just get low value real estate and a headache in return. They had enough naval power and skill to make the process costly. If you knocked them off, someone else would have practiced piracy in the Mediterranean, and who do you deal with or hold accountable then?

It made more sense from a pragmatic standpoint to leave them in power, pay tribute when cost effective or reasonable to do so, rough them up a bit and flex your muscle when necessary, and handle them based on a cost/benefit analysis standpoint. Snuff them out and you've got 100 pirate princes with their own agendas. Easier to buy off 4-5 pirate states, or even use them for your own purposes when necessary. Don't attack our flagged ships, take some tribute, attack our enemies flagged ships now, etc.

Occasionally they would act up, and in that case you know who to go to, blockade their harbor, demand concessions, make a treaty, go on with business as usual. You can't do that with 100 rag tag pirate bands with no significant home base and little to lose other than their ships and the shirts on their backs.

Same logic would seem to apply to the Iron Islands.

[Artos Stark]

There isn't anything that anyone wants there. Also to get there to invade one would need a fleet like the one that was amassed during the Greyjoy Rebellion and no one has a fleet that size. It just isn't worth the fight.

[TalalOfDorne]

Not much use invading it since there is nothing of value there

[Ingelheim]

If you invade the Iron Islands you do it to exterminate the Ironborn, not for the land itself. There is nothing in the Iron Islands.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Because there is only salt and rocks and idiots there ^ . ^

:agree:

[Fat Mac]

If you invade the Iron Islands you do it to exterminate the Ironborn, not for the land itself. There is nothing in the Iron Islands.

It's possible if you exterminated the natives you could always use the lands as prisoner camps, kind of like Siberia or something.

[Magic 8 Ball]

If you invade the Iron Islands you do it to exterminate the Ironborn, not for the land itself. There is nothing in the Iron Islands.

Still disagree with this one. That would be converting organized piracy with a defined leadership structure and vested interests into disorganized piracy with no chain of command or capacity to negotiate.

Besides, "exterminate" is pretty harsh, even in this world. You really want to kill all those women, children, thralls, elderly etc? The whole lot? Deport them and make them some other lord's problem? Can't sell them into slavery in Westeros.

It sort of makes sense to me why it reached an equilibrium point.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I would be like, hey instead of hanging out on that shitty piece of rock, hows about you all move to Essos. There you can get paid to be pirates.

[Magic 8 Ball]

The book strongly implies that Stannis's victory over the Iron Fleet was exceptional. If this is the case, then you would already be facing long odds with regards to landing your "genocide task force" successfully in the first place.

What if you fail during the naval phase of this campaign? You're screwed. Therefore it make no sense to elect an offensive war of choice.

What if you beat the odds and kill 'em all?

Repopulate the islands, and within a few generations there would be a culture functioning along broadly similar cultural lines to the Ironborn through sheer environmental determinism. Extreme environments tend to have a way of doing this.

Clean it out and start over again from scratch as many times as you like, you'd just wind up with more Ironborn by proxy.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Well if they had been invaded and extinguished then Robb would have probably won the war and apparently the story needed to drag on for much longer.

[Scipio Africanus]

The Iron Isles were pretty invaded by Bobby B 10 years before the ASOFAI timeline.

But when he saw those desolate isles and ignorant people he must've thought to himself: "**** thus I'm getting out of here not even worth exterminating" and just left them alone.

[Ingelheim]

Still disagree with this one. That would be converting organized piracy with a defined leadership structure and vested interests into disorganized piracy with no chain of command or capacity to negotiate.

Besides, "exterminate" is pretty harsh, even in this world. You really want to kill all those women, children, thralls, elderly etc? The whole lot? Deport them and make them some other lord's problem? Can't sell them into slavery in Westeros.

It sort of makes sense to me why it reached an equilibrium point.

Of course not! I enjoy the Iron Islands and the ironborn, but there is nothing there. I'm just saying that if we see an invasion of the Iron Islands would be to destroy the Ironborn, not for the land itself.

[mcb]

The Iron Islands are similar to the lands beyond the Wall in this aspect, only the ironborn pretend to be more civilized. Every now and then they get too unruly and need an asskicking to calm them down, but no one's desperate enough to conquer and occupy their poor lands.

[King Aerys the Just]

There's also the fact that before the Greyjoy Rebellion they don't seem to have been causing much damage anyway. There was that conflict during the time of the Dunk and Egg novels, but that's like 90 years BP, leaving a seventy year gap in between when they weren't much of a danger, as well as a sixteen year gap afterwards. Well to other Westerosi at least, since I presume that they spend a lot of time pirating around the stepstones and Essos normally.

[Sevumar]

There's also the fact that before the Greyjoy Rebellion they don't seem to have been causing much damage anyway. There was that conflict during the time of the Dunk and Egg novels, but that's like 90 years BP, leaving a seventy year gap in between when they weren't much of a danger, as well as a sixteen year gap afterwards.

I think the move to put down the Greyjoy Rebellion was to prevent it from becoming as damaging and widespread as Dagon Greyjoy's reaving decades earlier. The Ironmen had already gotten the first strike, attacking a port and a castle on the western coast of Westeros. They did manage to do some damage and it was important to limit that before they could hurt anything else.

[Magic 8 Ball]

So in thinking about the Iron Isles, something just occurred to me -

They have a very limited amount of land.

What land they have is depicted as a windswept and rocky place, suitable for growing moss, scrub, and weedy grass, and little topsoil.

This of course begs an important question :

Where the hell are they getting all this wood to build massive fleets with?

Wouldn't the smartest way to handle them be to keep them demilitarized by making it as difficult as possible for them to get their hands on wood?

Are the kings of Westeros really stupid enough to allow large exports of wood to the Iron Isles?

Am I missing some significant forest or something?

[Grip]

Someone just needs to smash their fleets, reduce them to kindling, and the Ironborn then cease to be a threat. Why they were allowed to rebuild their fleets is indeed an important question, while it may not be worth it to actually occupy the Islands atleast the Throne should make sure that they wont pose a threat anymore either.

[TinHouse]

Because there is only salt and rocks and idiots there ^ . ^

Pretty much, lol.

[Magic 8 Ball]

So the leadership of Westeros was too stupid after the last Greyjoy rebellion to undergo this thought process :

1. What makes the Iron Isles a threat ?

A : Their ships.

2. What are ships made of?

A : wood.

3. Do they have their own sustainable supply of wood?

A : no.

So why conquer them or exterminate them, when any population living in the isles will end up resorting to piracy by way of environmental determinism?

Make them agree to terms limiting the quantity of wood they import. Make them agree to allow representatives and naval forces of the Iron Throne at their ports to monitor this. If they cheat or expel the "monitors", hit them back in the mouth before they get a decent fleet built.

Send a delegation and hold council meetings to determine what positive economic activity is possible. I believe that in the real life Iron Isles they specialized in Whiskey production. There is fishing, and they could become merchant mariners for other fleets, or naval soldiers. You would have to be able to come up with something.