Cersei vs Margaery

[SeanF]

Margaery has been an enemy of Cersei's from the outset. Does anyone think she could have been unaware of the plot to poison Joffrey?

[Domeric Stark]

One of the main motives for Cersei's actions was the prophecy that claimed that a younger and prettier queen would come to take her place; she thinks that it is Margaery. Has anyone given any thought that it could be Daenerys, not Margaery?

[weaselontherun]

At this point why? Tommen is the King, Margery is his Queen and Cersei is Dowager "Regent"...

Cersei really doesn't have much in the way of forward thinking ability...what is in her face is what has to be dealt with and forget the future (as in repeal of Maegor's laws) except for her delusions of grandure vs Tywin's legacy.... as well as Maegi's prophecy of a younger queen and Margery is in her face...Whatever you think of Margery you have to admit she is subtle..I'm wondering if she is possibly the trueborn daughter of Doran Martell rather than the oaf Mace Tyrell (lust joking) however I would envisage a she would give a young Doran a run for his money

[Touched By Fire]

Cersei is not exactly sly with her hatred of Margery or any of the Tyrell's. I can not imagine that Margarey does not sense the danger and is not playing her own part. The Queen of Thornes is too much of a plotter to keep her granddaughter in position without teaching her to play the game. I think the biggest problem is that she is young and may not be experienced enough to be a match for Cersei.

I do agree, however, that the queen in the prophecy is probably Dany.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

About 2/3 of the way through the book, just where

the Knight of Flowers offers to go and take Dragonstone

, and am loving the way Margaery and Cersei have this underlying battle. So far Cersei thinks she's got the upper hand, but I'm wondering whether Margaery is savvier than she seems? Is her grandmother the Queen of Thorns training her well in the dark arts of Kings Landing's politics?

It remains to be seen what will happen to both following their respective trials in WOW but I don't see Cersei as being more intelligent than the Tyrells, and as paranoid and suspicious as she is, I am amazed that she has taken Taena into her confidence so quickly!

In Dwd, Cersei had to walk through the streets naked for her Walk of Shame. Hence, with this symbolic stripping of power, I fail to see how she will recover her power and influence, even if she does prevail in her trial. She cannot be looked at in the same light surely, she is on the path to destruction and her own actions are responsible for the situation she is in. If Cersei survives, she will forever be despised and hated by the Tyrrells who share power in KL and are popular with the people. While I do believe that Cersei is highly intelligent, and probably on par in that respect with Tyrion, she lacks his foresight and common sense. She is driven by bitterness, instability, paranoia and suspicion and she is getting even worse to the point where I am actually starting to think she will have a hand in the demise of her own children.

The Tyrells seem to be a newer but subtler version of the Lannisters. They are doing the same thing as the Lannisters by marrying their daughter to the King, she in turn is using her position to influence the King to the benefit of her family and interests, and her relatives are using her position to promote their own agendas and gain powerful positions for themselves at court. In short, this is exactly what happened to Robert when he married Cersei Lannister and as Cersei is aware that this can be done from experience, she fears that the Tyrells will do the same to her family.

With the Tyrells' clear subtlety and Margaery's eagerness to win over the people of Westeros (whether feigned or not), I'd say that they are probably cleverer and more politically shrewd than the Lannisters. It suggests that the Tyrells have been observing the rise of the Lnnisters for a long time, watching what they have done right and what they have done wrong in order to be able to repeat their rise to power without repeating any of their mistakes. But I also think they could be more dangerous in some way than the Lannisters. After all, the saying goes, "better the devil you know than the devil you don't", and with the Tyrells, it is clear that it is difficult to know when or where they might strike..

I know that English history has been a source of inspiration for GRRM, and the power battle between the Tyrells and Lannisters reminds me of the power battle between the Boleyns and the Seymours of Tudor history. Anne Boleyn was a fierce, ambitious, intelligent and independent woman who supplanted an annointed Queen when she married Henry VIII and managed to promote her own religious inclinations, her political affiliations and her family interests, however she was supplanted in time by a far subtler and reserved woman who was not as outspoken. Hence, the parallels are clear here, except for the slight reverse of circumstances – ie. Cersei frames Margaery for adultery, however I wonder whether GRRM will use the story as inspiration to destroy Cersei, Margaery, both or neither for the time being.

[Starks Among Us]

I think the queen in maggy the frogs prophecy will by myrcella.

[silentwanderer]

I think the queen in maggy the frogs prophecy will by myrcella.

She's no longer pretty, the Queen bound to take everything from Cersei had to be younger and prettier than she is.

Her daughter no longer is since they cut off her ear and ruined her face.

[Pikachu101]

Their battle of wits is sort of similar to Littlefinger and Varys, even if it isn't quite as subtle.

:rofl: don't insult Varys, LF and Margaery

Their battle is just a foolish, incompetent, paranoid queen scheming (and failing) to strike down the queen whose playing the game like a boss.

Cersei is no where near Margaery's level, so you can't compare them to Varys and Littlefinger

At first I honestly thought that then duh it hit me its probably Daenerys

I'd rather the queen was someone who wasn't on the same level as Cersei.

Preferably Sansa only because Margaery's a red herring

[Sordelor]

She's no longer pretty, the Queen bound to take everything from Cersei had to be younger and prettier than she is.

Her daughter no longer is since they cut off her ear and ruined her face.

With they, you mean Gerold Dayne, right.

Tommen needs a good regent, Tywin was very good, but Cersei is really not as smart as she thinks she is. I'm now reading adwd and saw in the appendix that

Kevan is the regent now.

I guess people who have allready finished adwd are laughing now with some things I don't know yet.

[silentwanderer]

Kevan is the regent now.

Kevan is dead now

.

Regardless, the character is not a younger and prettier Queen that would come to take everything from Cersei, according to the terms of the prophecy.

[Starks Among Us]

She's no longer pretty, the Queen bound to take everything from Cersei had to be younger and prettier than she is.

Her daughter no longer is since they cut off her ear and ruined her face.

Beauty could mean inner or outer, it's not specified. So far Myrcella seems to be a genuinely "good" girl and genuine, whereas Cersie and Margery are playing a game. Her ear being gone may or may not make her "ugly". If her hair is long, and styled the right way a missing ear may not even be that noticeable. Another potential candidate would be Sansa, who has both inner and outer beauty.

[silentwanderer]

Beauty could mean inner or outer...

Not for the prophecy: death was literally in the tent with Cersei's friend that night, the worms literally took her virginity, the only thing implied was the reason why Cersei killed her.

The prophecy stated the valonqar would kill Cersei and a woman younger and prettier would steal her crown. Her daughter is not pretty anymore, so Myrcella is isn't.

[Nilan8888]

Margaery is clearly outclassed by Cersei's paranoid schemes and never saw it coming otherwise she'd have done more than just trying to influence King Tommen who is, after all, just a child and must be obedient to his mother, the Queen Regent, until he comes of age.

Margaery was clearly not anticipating Cersei's move and their battle was nothing like the battle between Cersei and Tyrion. Margaery is still, after all, just a 16 year old girl and you need much more experience to match the crazed plotting of someone like Cersei who was born into a family with the likes of Tywin as a father. The Lannisters are cleverer than the Tyrells, there's never been contest between the two: the Lannisters are in a class of their own.

The Lannisters are in a class of their own, but it's not for outclassing their opponents. As I see it, that's an ironic statement: the Lannisters tend to gain the upper hand because everyone expects them to have more 'class' than they actually have. They are a very screwed up, power-hungry and money-grubbing family that would be quite pathetic if they weren't one of the most powerful houses in the realm.

The Tyrells get into trouble with them for the same reason the Starks do, they just have different sorts of expectations. The Starks expect the Lannisters and their supporters to have some recognition of honor or decency that they perceive most people have. And whether most people have that or not, the Lannisters don't. The Tyrells expect a more courtly, genteel behavior from them, and can get a little upended by their outright ruthlessness. That is to say, the Starks expect blue-collar honesty, the Tyrells expect white-collar civility, and the Lannisters are fit to provide neither. They are, to their core, fake people that have staked everything in their image but came up short in the substance department when that substance is not gold. What an you say when the patriarch, a rich and feared lord, will sleep with his own son's whore? Which sounds like "oh he's REALLY twisting the knife on Tyrion" until you think: wait a second... had he not escaped, how was Tyrion ever going to know any of that happened? And why would Tywin have placed such importance on doing that to someone who was sentenced to die as it was?

Insane.

So, that said, I don't think it's that Margery didn't see Cersei as an opponent. It's that she probably expected a more drawn-out, subtle struggle played out with courtiers and passive-aggressive behavior for years. What she got instead was Cersei going straight for the jugular in a way that might seem indirect someone like Catelyn, but to Margery probably seemed brazen and demented.