Jon Targaryen Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 But as it has been brought up before, Ned + Ashara or Wylla does not fit the timline, unless Ned can be in two places at once. GRRM has said Ashara was not tied down in Starfall, to play devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Right. She was with Elia in Targ-controlled King's Landing, where Ned wasn't at the time Jon must have been conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecayingExponentials Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Jon, I assume you're not a supporter of R+L=J, from the post above - sorry if I'm mistaken. I have a question for you, or any other people who don't believe R+L=J: Taken from the awesome FAQ (http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html) The real clincher comes with a vision Dany has in the House of the Undying. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. --CoK, pg. 707 This quote strongly implies that Lyanna’s blue roses have something to do with the Wall (the ‘wall of ice’) This makes perfect sense because Jon, the product of Lyanna and her blue roses, is on the Wall. What do you make of such prophecies? What else can a blue rose on a wall of ice mean if not signifying that Jon is related somehow to Lyanna? Again, sorry if this has been discussed before, but I'm rather curious. Also, if I missed a thread where this was discussed please link me to it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laker Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 ive always loved all the prophecies in ASOIAF especially the few that seem to relate to jon. And jon is related to lyanna one way or another if you dont belive him to be her son then shes he aunt. I like the mention of the 3 kingsquard members defending the TOJ. no one who doesnt believe in L+R=J has yet to even attempt to explain why they were there, and most the time i see that comment just over looked. Question- has anyone come up with a reliable time for when the fight at the tower of joy happened, we all know it was towards the end of the war, and after the sack of kings landing but i cant recall any other info to give a more specific timeline for when all this occured, and without that how can we even know how old jon really is. if ned lied about the jons mother(parents) wouldnt be a far stretch to lie also about his age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Right. She was with Elia in Targ-controlled King's Landing, where Ned wasn't at the time Jon must have been conceived. We don't know where she was, actually. Jon, I assume you're not a supporter of R+L=J, from the post above - sorry if I'm mistaken. No, as you might be able to tell from my sn, I am a supporter. Just playing devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I was wondering if Robert and Lyanna ever slept together? Do we know if this could have happened? He is a randy bastard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 no one who doesnt believe in L+R=J has yet to even attempt to explain why they were there, and most the time i see that comment just over looked. does noone who doesn't mean everyone who do ? Anyway, for the record I have no real conviction in the debate, but I can think of a blindingly simple answer for that: Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty at Harrendal, Rheagar kidnapped her. He wanted her. In this context, is it really so far fetched that the crown prince would assign guards to his beloved in order to prevent her to be recovered by the rebels to his family? Note this works both way, in that the Kingsguard protects Lyanna, but they also keep her from leaving. There is the possibility that she was not there on her own free will, after all. I would actually turn the question back: why do you think Lyanna needs a child before Rheagar puts guards between her, a girl worth starting a war, and anyone passing by? Paris didn't need Helen to be pregnant to begin protecting ehr from Agamemnon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Jon Targaryen, Lyanna was one of Elia's ladies-in-waiting in King's Landing. Summer, we don't know that Robert slept with Lyanna, but if her "bloody bed" means she gave birth shortly before Ned found her, Robert couldn't be the father; that was over a year after the war started, and she'd disappeared before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecayingExponentials Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 No, as you might be able to tell from my sn, I am a supporter. Just playing devil's advocate. Ah, good point. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Jon Targaryen, Lyanna was one of Elia's ladies-in-waiting in King's Landing. Yes, she was. But that doesn't mean she was in King's Landing, at any time during the war. In fact, GRRM's comment that Ashara wasn't tied down at Starfall plus her presence there at the end of the war seems to mean that was where she spent most of her time. But she could have been elsewhere as GRRM's comment also indicates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Summer, we don't know that Robert slept with Lyanna, but if her "bloody bed" means she gave birth shortly before Ned found her, Robert couldn't be the father; that was over a year after the war started, and she'd disappeared before that. I'm just throwing wood on a dying fire but what if the babe Ned brought back was not born that day (3 months earlier for example) and the bloody bed is her dying of some sort of wound... The seed is strong and if we all agree Lyanna is the mother than couldn't a mix with Robert B make a child a lot like Jon? To be honest I know and love that Jon is Rhaegar's; I'm not trying to advocate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpygoat Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 The seed is strong and if we all agree Lyanna is the mother than couldn't a mix with Robert B make a child a lot like Jon? Before the war even started Lyanna was gone. Then Brandon needed time enough to find out Rhaegar was involved. Then Brandon needed time enough to reach King's Landing. Then time enough was needed to send for Rickard Stark. Then Rickard Stark needed to reach King's Landing. Then birds needed to be sent to the Vale calling for Ned and Roberts heads. All before the war even happened. I'd say there's next to no chance Robert's the father. A decent amount of time went by before war even happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Before the war even started Lyanna was gone. Then Brandon needed time enough to find out Rhaegar was involved. Then Brandon needed time enough to reach King's Landing. Then time enough was needed to send for Rickard Stark. Then Rickard Stark needed to reach King's Landing. Then birds needed to be sent to the Vale calling for Ned and Roberts heads. All before the war even happened. I'd say there's next to no chance Robert's the father. A decent amount of time went by before war even happened. & that is why I've never heard of it before. I knew there was a timeline which could pretty much resolve this problem. On a side note, Rhaegar's hair was white wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Jon Targaryen, if Ashara didn't spend most of the war in KL with Elia, I still doubt she was visiting the WAR. Nor do I see newlywed Ned--one of Robert's generals--abandoning his post to track her down in enemy territory for a night of sweet loving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Jon Targaryen, if Ashara didn't spend most of the war in KL with Elia, I still doubt she was visiting the WAR. Nor do I see newlywed Ned--one of Robert's generals--abandoning his post to track her down in enemy territory for a night of sweet loving. Yes, it is unlikely, but not impossible due to the timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 It's pretty well functionally impossible, I think. Ned wouldn't abandon his post, nor do I think he would embark on an affair when he was married. I don't think Ashara would either, due to the potential dire consequences for her. If Ashara got pregnant, she'd likely be in a horrible situation; he couldn't marry her and, in that society, who would? Cersei aborted some pregnancies, as I recall--but I really don't see Ned putting someone he supposedly loved in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 It's pretty well functionally impossible, I think. Ned wouldn't abandon his post, nor do I think he would embark on an affair when he was married. I don't think Ashara would either, due to the potential dire consequences for her. If Ashara got pregnant, she'd likely be in a horrible situation; he couldn't marry her and, in that society, who would? Cersei aborted some pregnancies, as I recall--but I really don't see Ned putting someone he supposedly loved in that situation. In the end, we don't know where Ashara was during the war, just that she was "not tied down at Starfall." So it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoneysepton Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 the theory does have some merit....Eddard only thinks back to Reagars tower of joy and Lyanna in a pool of blood. sounds like a birthing chamber. however, Daenarys stormborn is and is supposesed to be the queen and savior of all westeros and she needs two others to ride to battle with against the Others when they come in this mot terrible of winters.... the Dragon has three heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be'lal Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I just completed an extensive poll asking people if they considered R+L=J on their own, or if they heard it from another source, including this site. This poll was desinged to resolve one of the major arguments over the R+L=J theory, that it is too obvious to the reader and therefore not GRRM's style. The results are: Out of 75 included responses: 24 or 32% considered it on their own, 51 or 68% did not consider R+L=J on their own. If we accept these results as valid, then it becomes clear that GRRM did a good job of hiding his clues, and the theory therefore suits his style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Wolf Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I just completed an extensive poll asking people if they considered R+L=J on their own, or if they heard it from another source, including this site. This poll was desinged to resolve one of the major arguments over the R+L=J theory, that it is too obvious to the reader and therefore not GRRM's style. The results are: Out of 75 included responses: 24 or 32% considered it on their own, 51 or 68% did not consider R+L=J on their own. If we accept these results as valid, then it becomes clear that GRRM did a good job of hiding his clues, and the theory therefore suits his style. This assumes that R+L=J is true. Considering it in the realm of possibility is not supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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