The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[Targ loyalist]

What do you say on this:

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child,so did Ned and Ashara.After TOJ Ned came to starfall with Lyanna's child,and there he found his own child with Ashara(who was Jon).So,cause of the royal blood,Ned wanted to put Lyana's child on safe place,so he gave it to Ashara and they fled on the East,while Ned took Jon with him back to Winterfell.

So?what you think?

I know the MAIN reason why people believe in R+L=J theory is Deny's vision in the House of Undieing-blue rose growing in wall,and i really dont have an idea for that(well except Jon),and i thinkits one of the most mysterious foreshadowings in books.

[一方通行]

the theory popped into my head when Ned was thinking about his kids in the black cell. i thought that mabey he wasent dead. that night i was thinking about it in bed, and suddenly i was like..

DAMMIT, shoulda seen that.

[Shewoman]

Targ loyalist, that just sounds too complicated. Ned gives his nephew to Ashara and takes their son back to Winterfell. The fact that we never find Ned thinking of Ashara with any sort of nostalgia or love is a problem here, as is the fact that he never thinks of Jon--who is his son according to this theory--as his son ("He's my blood" is his response to Catelyn the one time she asks about Jon's parentage). And in GoT pp. 485-7 Ned Ned wonders what he would do if a strange child’s life threatened Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon (note the omission of Jon)--and what Catelyn would do, “if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?â€

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

Not much to add really, just affirming my support of the R+L=J theory.

And now, I realize I have to log without explaining my reasons, but they're pretty much what everyone else says. Also, Jon's just cool.

[Targ loyalist]

Ok,this is a mix of some other teories,my teories and thoughts,all in one,but i think you should read it(possibly contains minor ADWD spoilers):

So,lets start first with TOJ.I am not really R+L=J fan,but in this post i ll go witk it as a true.So,Rheagar made baby to Lyanna,Jon,and he leaves to war against rebells.He sends at TOJ 3 KGs,most probably BEFORE he goes to KL.BUT,even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married,and Jon is legitimate son of Targs,he is still no heir!Aegon is,and Aegon is alive at that time.So,why would Rheagar,who surely LOVED all his children,and who was very responsible person leave his wife,daughter,son AND HEIR in KL with his crazy grandpa and 1 KG,newest and most untested of all,Jamie Lannister,while he takes 3 of KGG with him to battle,and another 3 to his love Lyanna and their unborn child.OK stop now.Is this just stupid!?I mean,guy has 3 kids,one of them HEIR TO THE KINGDOM,and he puts 3 best KGs(except Selmy) with the youngest and unborn child and his mother Lyanna,WHILE only one KG Jamie,who nearly joined KGs is left with his wife,daughter and his HEIR(and ofcourse maniac daddy Aerys) in KL!I mean ok if Rheagar loved Lyana and not Ellya,but he loved his kids,and it was his duty to secure the safe place for his heir,if something bad happens to himself.So,I think Rhaegar,changed Aegon with some other baby,and Aegon was sent with Lyanna and KGs to TOJ.Makes more sense?Then,after battle of TOJ,Ned founds Lyanna with the newborn AND one little more stranger baby(silver hair,indigo eyes,whatever),and Lyanna tells him who that is.Then she begs him for BOTH Jon's safety AND Aegon's safety,cause after all Aegon is son and heir of her love Rhaegar.So he mades promiseS.He goes to Starfall,confeses Ashara whole situation,and then she fakes her death,so she can ran away on the East with Aegon,while Ned takes Jon in Winterfell.Then,on the East Ashara meets Konnington(possibly the guy who knew about Rhagar switching babies),and Aegon is nowadays possibly Young Griff!

Now after this theory,why people dont like the theoty that Aegon is alive(atleast some of them),they say that its too late for such a major character to enter series,but why too late?GRRM broke many fantasy clishes,why not the one that main characters are always thjere on beginning?And another thing I would like,and very interesting one is-What will Dany do when she finds out Aegon?Many people say she only wants crown cause she is last of the line and etc....BUT she suffered wedding with Drogo,his death,Rhaegoss death,and all adventures on her way on Meereen(and the most important for all,she sacrifised Drogos,Rhaegos lives for her dragons),and then BOOM! she is not the queen,the newly popped up prin ce is king.Do you think Dany will say-well ok,he is heir?I dont think so,and while people say there will be false Aegon,while false?Puppets dragon?it doesnt need to mean its a false dragon.It may be that there is somebody behind him,maybe Varys or who knows.So,there arrives Aegon with his claim to Deny,and what will she do?Find out in ADWD!

[Shewoman]

Ned had just fought a war to overthrow the dynasty that killed his father and brother. I don't think he'd go out of his way to protect an heir of that dynasty, no matter what Lyanna asked.

[Targ loyalist]

I think you are wrong Shewoman.Ned didnt fought the dinasty,he said for waht he fought in AGOT,he fought against child murdering(i mean Brandon and companions who were not really children),but he NEVER hated Targaryens,i think its shown dozen times,he maybe hated Aerys,but if Lyanna loved Rhaegar theres no way he could hate him(not to speak about hating children),and Ned would do whatever for Lyanna on her deathbed.

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

I'm a full on believer in L+R=J.

There are so many things in the book that point to it. Even if it isn't true though, I would like to know Jon's true parantage.

[The Wolf Maid]

Ned had just fought a war to overthrow the dynasty that killed his father and brother. I don't think he'd go out of his way to protect an heir of that dynasty, no matter what Lyanna asked.

Lyanna is still his blood, and so is her child, if she did have one. And Ned is a honorable man. I don't think he would have harmed a child of his sister, even if he's a Targ. For one thing, he hated child slaying. Heck, he protested when Robert wanted Dany dead and when Aegon and Rhaenys were killed, and they weren't of his blood.

[Grumpygoat]

Ned had just fought a war to overthrow the dynasty that killed his father and brother. I don't think he'd go out of his way to protect an heir of that dynasty, no matter what Lyanna asked.

Despite doing just that when Robert wanted to assassinate Dany and her unborn child? Despite the fact that it meant losing the Handship and, had Robert wanted, potentially more?

And, during wartime, effectively ended his friendship with Robert due to the murder of Elia and her children? Only to reconcile over the shared loss of Lyanna?

Who refused to use the Lannister children as hostages?

And Ned isn't related to Dany at all in the slightest.

He's just a decent, honest person who quite strongly believed that the murder of children was wrong. This is shown consistently throughout the first book. If you think he wouldn't go out of his way to protect an heir to the dynasty, when he has repeatedly risked himself to protect children of all sorts, I think you're missing out on one of the most integral parts to Ned Starks character.

[Shewoman]

Ned didn't want children murdered; that does not make him a Targaryen loyalist. The war had cost his family a great deal; I don't think he'd take action that would make another war more likely. War isn't good for children either.

Targ Loyalist raises some good questions about Rhaegar's behavior. We don't have the answers yet, but I think he thought the child of Ice and Fire was mystically significant and therefore both his conception and his protection were necessary, no matter the cost.

I just find the theory hard to support. Four babies are involved--Aegon, the mystery child switched with Aegon, Jon, and a child of Ned's and Ashara's. Only two of those kids are known to have existed. According to this theory Jon really is Ned's son (which I don't see the books supporting) and Ned sends Lyanna's child out of Westeros. He might think sending Rhaegar's son away could diminish the chances of war, I suppose. But, speaking of Ned's character, I don't think it likely that Ned would have married Catelyn if he'd already impregnated Ashara (if that happened at Harrenhal they'd've known before the wedding) and I'm sure he wouldn't have impregnated her AFTER he married Catelyn (for one thing, I don't think he saw her between Harrenhal and his journey to Starfall with Arthur's sword). And for all his anger at Robert for accepting Tywin's murder of Rhaegar and Elia's children, Ned continues to support him. He stands up to Robert over assassinating Dany about 14 years later.

[Targ loyalist]

Shewoman are you talking about my 1. post(Ned+Ashara=Jon and Rhaegar+Lyana=unknown) or the 2.(R+L=J and Aegon is alive)?It seems you are messing those 2.I agree that 1. is probably not likely but 2.?More likely,read one more time if you mixed them.

[The Wolf Maid]

Ned didn't want children murdered; that does not make him a Targaryen loyalist. The war had cost his family a great deal; I don't think he'd take action that would make another war more likely. War isn't good for children either.

I think no one can doubt that Ned isn't a Targ loyalist.

Yes, he doesn't want another war, hence the deception over Jon's identity. He claims him as his bastard.

And for all his anger at Robert for accepting Tywin's murder of Rhaegar and Elia's children, Ned continues to support him. He stands up to Robert over assassinating Dany about 14 years later.

He stood up to Robert when Lannisters killed Rhaegar's children. In fact, he walked out from Robert and went fighting in the south on his own.

[Shewoman]

Targ loyalist, this is your second post and it looks like it's got three babies in it; you've eliminated the Ned+Ashara one from your post before this one. Sorry I put the posts together.

Who was the baby substituted for Aegon? It would have to have the Targ coloring (which Martin has said Aegon had) in order to convince whoever came to kill him that he really was Aegon; Aegon was about a year old and I'm sure he'd been seen around court (since he was second in line for the throne) enough for people to know in general what he looked like.

Targ Loyalist said: "So,lets start first with TOJ.I am not really R+L=J fan,but in this post i ll go witk it as a true.So,Rheagar made baby to Lyanna,Jon, (FIRST BABY) and he leaves to war against rebells.He sends at TOJ 3 KGs,most probably BEFORE he goes to KL.BUT,even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married,and Jon is legitimate son of Targs,he is still no heir!Aegon is,and Aegon is alive at that time.So,why would Rheagar,who surely LOVED all his children,and who was very responsible person leave his wife,daughter,son AND HEIR in KL with his crazy grandpa and 1 KG,newest and most untested of all,Jamie Lannister,while he takes 3 of KGG with him to battle,and another 3 to his love Lyanna and their unborn child.OK stop now.Is this just stupid!?I mean,guy has 3 kids,one of them HEIR TO THE KINGDOM,and he puts 3 best KGs(except Selmy) with the youngest and unborn child and his mother Lyanna,WHILE only one KG Jamie,who nearly joined KGs is left with his wife,daughter and his HEIR(and ofcourse maniac daddy Aerys) in KL!I mean ok if Rheagar loved Lyana and not Ellya,but he loved his kids,and it was his duty to secure the safe place for his heir,if something bad happens to himself.So,I think Rhaegar,changed Aegon with some other baby (SECOND BABY),and Aegon (THIRD BABY) was sent with Lyanna and KGs to TOJ.Makes more sense?Then,after battle of TOJ,Ned founds Lyanna with the newborn AND one little more stranger baby(silver hair,indigo eyes,whatever),and Lyanna tells him who that is.Then she begs him for BOTH Jon's safety AND Aegon's safety,cause after all Aegon is son and heir of her love Rhaegar.So he mades promiseS.He goes to Starfall,confeses Ashara whole situation,and then she fakes her death,so she can ran away on the East with Aegon,while Ned takes Jon in Winterfell.Then,on the East Ashara meets Konnington(possibly the guy who knew about Rhagar switching babies),and Aegon is nowadays possibly Young Griff!"

[Targ loyalist]

Who was the baby substituted for Aegon? It would have to have the Targ coloring (which Martin has said Aegon had) in order to convince whoever came to kill him that he really was Aegon; Aegon was about a year old and I'm sure he'd been seen around court (since he was second in line for the throne) enough for people to know in general what he looked like.

Shewoman,babies old 1 yeaar are preety much the same...Rheagar could find any baby with blonde hair/blue eyes.And dont forget who came after him-ser Gregor Clegane!What a smart guy!

And about Aegon been seen,I really doubt it,he was baby!He was probably in Ellias arms,wraped in some cloth,mabey only head been seen,maybe with some sort of hat or wahtever,its really the minor problem with whom to switch him

[Shewoman]

Have you spent much time around 1-yr-olds? They're not all alike--and the Targ coloring is quite distinctive. Silver-white hair. No one could know who exactly would charge into the nursery--Tywin was a late edition to the rebellion so Lannisters would have been a long shot. It is possible that Elia was holding him--but no one could predict that. The attack could have come when she was in the privy, or when the fake Aegon was right next to the door. If I recall correctly, Gregor picked the baby up and smashed him against the wall, which means he did see him--and I'm sure he would have noticed if he'd been presented with a baby with bright red, yellow, or dark hair instead of the true Targ color. If there was any doubt on anyone's part that the dead baby was Aegon, then the real Aegon (assuming that's not who was killed) would continue to be in danger.

[samir3]

Have you spent much time around 1-yr-olds? They're not all alike--and the Targ coloring is quite distinctive. Silver-white hair. No one could know who exactly would charge into the nursery--Tywin was a late edition to the rebellion so Lannisters would have been a long shot. It is possible that Elia was holding him--but no one could predict that. The attack could have come when she was in the privy, or when the fake Aegon was right next to the door. If I recall correctly, Gregor picked the baby up and smashed him against the wall, which means he did see him--and I'm sure he would have noticed if he'd been presented with a baby with bright red, yellow, or dark hair instead of the true Targ color. If there was any doubt on anyone's part that the dead baby was Aegon, then the real Aegon (assuming that's not who was killed) would continue to be in danger.

aegon's face was smashed in, so the only identification is the hair, that's not very difficult to imitate. rhaegar could have easily picked up a baby off the street and colored his hair silver or even found one of aerys bastards, which i'm sure he had.

and about ned, he would have definitely sided with his sister and accepted any promise she had for him on her death bed. it's just the type of man he's made out to be.

also, i don't understand how people can repeatedly say how so much in the book points to R+L=J and nothing to Jon being Ned's bastard. i don't know, maybe every lord in westeros believing Jon = Ned's bastard isn't good enough for you. or the entire north "knowing" the like. from where i'm sitting, i see all the "facts" backing R+J=L relying on an interpretation of the text that could go other ways, whereas Jon being Ned's bastard is straight "fact", no interpretation of text necessary, it's laid out in front of us.

[Shewoman]

My point about fake Aegon having to look like a Targ (since we know real Aegon had that coloring) was entirely about BEFORE his being murdered, not after. People would have to believe that the child in the nursery was really Aegon--and who knows how long the switch, if there was one, was made before Gregor showed up--and the killer especially would have to believe it.

Every lord in Westeros believes Jon is Ned's son because Ned says so and they're not reading his POVs. But Ned can't quite tell Catelyn that Jon's his son--the only time she asks he flies into such a rage she never raises the question again and he tells her "he's my blood," which could mean "he's my son" but is certainly a roundabout way of saying so. And on pp. 485-7 (somewhere in there) he thinks about how he'd react to a threat to his children and he names them: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. No Jon.

[Targ loyalist]

My point about fake Aegon having to look like a Targ (since we know real Aegon had that coloring) was entirely about BEFORE his being murdered, not after. People would have to believe that the child in the nursery was really Aegon--and who knows how long the switch, if there was one, was made before Gregor showed up--and the killer especially would have to believe it.

And who will ask if the baby is really Aegon(even if someone doubted that) to Ellya?Who dares?If Ellya says so(even if somebody asked her wich I really doubt) its end of story.As to killer,well,even if baby wasnt 99% like real Aegon,it was Gregor!I doubt he evn knew how did Aegon looked like,in his mind it was just a baby,a small human being.

[samir3]

And on pp. 485-7 (somewhere in there) he thinks about how he'd react to a threat to his children and he names them: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. No Jon.

here is the whole quote, AGOT PB ver. pg 486

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

He does include Jon, just not while thinking about Catelyn and his children. But he does ask what Catelyn would do if it was his child (Jon) she would have to sacrifice for the life of her children. He's not saying Jon isn't his, just that Jon isn't Catelyn's. That's how i read it. again, it comes to interpretation.