Shewoman Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I don't see how Benjen can be the father. If he were--a single man at the time Jon was conceived, now on the Wall--why not tell the world? Why would Ned lie to claim the child as his own when the truth is no scandal nor something that could endanger Jon or the nation if it were known? Doing this causes conflict within Ned's family and keeps Jon from knowing the truth of his heritage; I can't see what reason there is for it. (This argument also applies to Rickard or Brandon--both dead now--being Jon's father.) And Ned brought Jon back to Winterfell from the South after the war. Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. How did he happen to have a child (who must have been conceived during the war) in the South and how did Ned wind up with him? Benjen didn't join the NW until Ned had been home for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky05301986 Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I understand that it's unlikely (or even impossible) for Benjen to be Jon's father, but I asked you how you would react. I'm just wondering if your reaction would be any different if Jon wasn't Ned's son nor Lyanna's. In essence, the question really wasn't about Benjen. He just happens to be the only other Stark I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I think one of Jon's parents has to be a Stark. I believe it's clear from Ned's POV's that he isn't Jon's father. I don't see how it can be either of his brothers or his father. That leaves Lyanna; it seems likely (though not definite) from the description of her deathbed that she gave birth. So, if Martin tells us that Ned/Rickard/Brandon/Benjen is Jon's father, my reaction is going to be wanting some of these things explained. The whole Lyanna episode is obviously very important to Ned. He thinks about it--and especially about the promises he made her--an awful lot. Eventually that needs to be explained as well. If the promises didn't involve Jon, we still need to know what they were. So wanting that explanation would also be part of my reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targ loyalist Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Wait for little frogeatter to show up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocobar Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 LRJ is brilliant either way, whether it is true or a red herring. That got me thinking, is it known for a fact that Lyanna gave birth to a boy? Is it possible that Daenerys is her daughter? I do not remember the details of the text now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir3 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 LRJ is brilliant either way, whether it is true or a red herring. That got me thinking, is it known for a fact that Lyanna gave birth to a boy? Is it possible that Daenerys is her daughter? I do not remember the details of the text now. daenerys was born on dragonstorm during a storm, hence the nick stormborn. anyway, i was wondering something. i realize martin has said he wouldn't change anything in the novel even if people uncover parts of the plot before the book release, but what if he doesn't stick with this promise. what if he had no intention of R+L=J, didn't even consider this. all the "hints" along the way are mere coincidences or mis-interpretations, but now he decided to go with the R+L=J. maybe that's why it took him so long to complete AFFC. this would royally piss me off though. and if this proves true, which side "wins". the nedders or R+L=Jers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I don't think it's possible that Martin's not aware of the clues he's laid for R+L=J. They could be red herrings, but he's got to know they're there. crocobar, we don't know for a fact that Lyanna gave birth, although I think that's clearly implied. Jon is about nine months older than Dany; she was conceived around the time he was born and, to echo samir, the circumstances of her birth are well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Maid Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Martin has also responded to fan query that the parentage of Jon will be revealed in time. Looking back, this is a little odd because in the earliest pages of AGOT, we already 'know'(or were told) who Jon's parents were, through Bran (as he identified Jon as his brother) and thru Robert (who said Wylla as the mother of Jon, and Ned 'confirmed' it). So if Jon's parents were really Ned and Wylla, why would GRRM respond that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targ loyalist Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 He also said Jon's parentage is far more complicated then we think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocobar Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 He also said Jon's parentage is far more complicated then we think... RLJ is kinda complicated considering that most people including myself did not get the idea even after a couple of rereads. I don't know in what context GRRM said the words above but if RLJ is not complicated enough... It is fair to assume Jon has Stark blood indeed, I do not think that Ned outright lied to Catelyn about that. If the mother is Lyanna, it should be possible to round up possible fathers. Can it be Robert? Robert seemed to be really hung up on Lyanna, and he doesn't strike me as a man that would cherish platonic love. That Harrenhall tourney gotta have clues about possible fathers. If it isn't Lyanna, I do not think there are clues enough to figure it out, and what's the point of complicated parentage then, just to spring it on us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 If Jon was born right around the time of the Sack of Kings Landing, he must have been conceived after the war started, which pretty much lets Robert out. And if Robert knew where Lyanna was and got to her somehow, it's hard to imagine him leaving her there. In the Robert scenario, what promises did Lyanna want from Ned? If Robert's Jon's father, why can't Robert know? He (or his Hands) provided financially for his bastards. We know that Cersei had some of his bastards killed, but she and Robert weren't married at the time Lyanna died so she can't have been worried about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Blackfyre Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 When Martin says that Jon's parentage is far more complicated than we think is he talking about the average reader, or the fanataical forum lurker that knows everything there is to know about the story at this point. I'm assuming he means the average reader, and in that case, R+L=J is pretty complicated I think, I've talked with my cousin and friends, who I introduced to the series, about the TOJ and what they thought the significance of Ned's flashbacks are and none of them even considered Rhaegar being Jon's father. I had suspicions after my 2 read of the 1st three books, and had the idea in my head but didn't fully belive it till coming to this site. When you really stop to look at it we've been fed info making Rhaegar look like he stole Lyanna and raped her, and only after really studying the characters such as Ned, and the personality of Rhaegar through the accounts of Barristan can you begin to belive otherwise. I have a hard time believing anyone who says they read the books the first time and figured that R+L=J, it's just not as obvious as everyone who believes it on here tries to make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 sorry if this ahs been said...but there is no way im going through 18 pages, Ghost is white, and many Targaryan had white hair, that could be symbolic of Jons Targaryan parentage....I supposes it could be symbolic of dayne parentage too, because Daynes have Whitish silver hair too right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir3 Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 sorry if this ahs been said...but there is no way im going through 18 pages, Ghost is white, and many Targaryan had white hair, that could be symbolic of Jons Targaryan parentage....I supposes it could be symbolic of dayne parentage too, because Daynes have Whitish silver hair too right? it's possible. but it could also be to differentiate ghost from his siblings just like jon from his. or foreshadow jon joining the NW. or ghost is white because his name is jon SNOW. there are many explanations. about the jon's parentage being complicated. does anyone have a link to where martin says this? i'd like to read the words he chooses. maybe he means semi-complicated as in the parentage given in davos 1 ADWD spoiler chapter or impossibly complicated as in R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I know, i know......but everyone else has a crackpot theory...I figured I ought to have my own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targ loyalist Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I think GRRM was asked by a fan is Jon R+L,and he said it is far more compicated then simple R+L=J,but thats just my thoughts,I dont know where exactly and in wich exactly contest GRRM said that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Blackfyre Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I think GRRM was asked by a fan is Jon R+L,and he said it is far more compicated then simple R+L=J,but thats just my thoughts,I dont know where exactly and in wich exactly contest GRRM said that I'm of a mind that when he says that he doesn't mean that R+L=J is false, just that to sum it up as such seriously undermines the time and effort he has put into the story. The story telling behind his parentage is far more complicated...because honestly its gotta be ?+?=J, so filling in the blanks with different people doesn't make it more complicated, just different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABYSS Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I was doing a re-read of AGOT and I noticed something in an Eddard chapter. In the first Eddard chapter Pg.41 in Softcover U.S. edition. Ned and Robert is talking. "'Kings are a rare sight in the North.' Robert snorted. 'More likely they are hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned! The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself. " (AGOT, pg. 41) I was the italicsized Snow that caught my eye, or else I would not even noticed this sentence. I don't remember this being mentioned before and thought it was pretty interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Maid Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I was doing a re-read of AGOT and I noticed something in an Eddard chapter. In the first Eddard chapter Pg.41 in Softcover U.S. edition. Ned and Robert is talking. "'Kings are a rare sight in the North.' Robert snorted. 'More likely they are hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned! The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself. " (AGOT, pg. 41) I was the italicsized Snow that caught my eye, or else I would not even noticed this sentence. I don't remember this being mentioned before and thought it was pretty interesting. Robert was complaining that the north was such an empty place, and Eddard responded that his people were shy, and Kings were rare in the North. Robert meant that the people was more likely not shy, but hiding under the snow as there are a LOT of snow in the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHappyOther Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 To expand on the idea of simplicity, not only do we know that ?+?=J, we know that one of the question marks is (probably) Ned, Lyanna, or (a real crackpot here) Benjen. How complicated can it get from there? Srry for the hi-jack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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