Edric's telling of Ned and Ashara

[eggs]

I think you're doing a bit of a disservice to Quentyn. He may not inspire the same loyalty that Robert Baratheon did with his easy humour, amiability and martial prowess, but his comrades were very loyal to him, and what kind of authority could he have? He may be a Prince of Dorne, but travelling undercover with only a handful of companions in a far away land, where is the source of his authority? If people don't listen to him, what repercussions would they face? Authority has to have power behind it, whatever form of power depends.

that came out wrong, its not that he should have authority; its that he gets treated like a joke by everyone he meets. he doesnt really inspire any respect from others and has low self esteem to boot.

[Pod The Impaler]

5. Barristan Selmy's evidence: The comments about young girls' preference of fire vs mud; the his internally cold way of referring to whichever "Stark" dishonored her vs how he behaved with Eddard Stark;

My only question is where Sir Barristan get his information from? How did he about he know about a stillborn baby girl with Ashara was in Dorne and he was off fighting against Robert's Rebellion?

If R+L=J is true, lies could have easily been fed to Edric Dayne by someone in the household about Eddard/Wylla/Jon to protect Jon. Even if R+L=J isn't, part of what he has been told could have been meant to cover a more tragic story about an aunt he never knew. The best sources is the KotLT story, Lady Dustin, and stuff from SSM (I hope).

Barristan was at the Harrenhal tourney.

Plus, remember the age difference - he may have fallen for Ashara (secretly), but she was far too young for him, and he was in the KG.

As for the rest, Barristan was in battle and then recovering from injury, but being KG, he would have known more information than most people to begin with.

After the war ended, you think Barristan never tried to find out why / how Ashara died? Probably did, along with finding out how 3 of the KG including his lord commander perished at the Tower of Joy. I think he knew why those 3 were there, or rather why they were sent to guard someone there (rather than the king, the queen, the king's other son and pregnant wife). However, that's about all he would know - everything he learns would be after the fact. Ashara - dead, threw herself in the sea. So says everyone in her household. Lyanna? Dead. Her child stillborn. So say those at the ToJ including her brother Eddard Stark. Barristan knew nothing of the promise, or Jon, except the various cover stories / rumours. A whore's son, a fishwife's son, a wet nurse's son ... maybe he suspected Jon was Ashara's son. Eddard claimed fatherhood of the boy, and the boy had the Stark look, that was enough. Barristan probably made peace (mentally) with Eddard Stark, with Robert killing Rhaegar and becoming king, and all the rest, in the aftermath of the war. He even made peace with Jaime Lannister, at least enough to work with him and not slay him as a KG oathbreaker (and that is the oddest one of all).

Barristan was already an accomplished man before anything happened between Eddard and Ashara. He desired her, but she never knew, and even if she did it could never go anywhere. He would have named her QOLAB if he won the tourney, she'd have blushed, and some tongues would have wagged. And then she'd have fallen for someone her age over the older man in the white cloak.

[Apple the Great]

that came out wrong, its not that he should have authority; its that he gets treated like a joke by everyone he meets. he doesnt really inspire any respect from others and has low self esteem to boot.

Ah! Ok I understand. I don't disagree that he didn't inspire respect, and his companions seem to overshadow him to a degree, but they do have the benefit of age on their side. He knows he's not as good at them at swordplay or jousting but I imagine he thinks of himself as competent... probably a lot like a young Ned Stark. I personally think he had great potential and if the dragon taming had worked, everyone would be like..."ye gods! That kid has balls of steel!" It's just a shame he didn't. There's also a lesson to take from the dragon taming incident. NEVER LEAVE YOUR WINGMAN!

Barristan was already an accomplished man before anything happened between Eddard and Ashara. He desired her, but she never knew, and even if she did it could never go anywhere. He would have named her QOLAB if he won the tourney, she'd have blushed, and some tongues would have wagged. And then she'd have fallen for someone her age over the older man in the white cloak.

QOLAB sounds like an awesome weapon codename doesn't it? I'm imagining some kind of orbital rail-gun.

[Pod The Impaler]

QOLAB sounds like an awesome weapon codename doesn't it? I'm imagining some kind of orbital rail-gun.

Well, in a way, it is - a QOLAB destroyed the Targaryen dynasty.

"Friendly fire isn't !"

[Apple the Great]

Women might not be crasy

Well, in a way, it is - a QOLAB destroyed the Targaryen dynasty.

"Friendly fire isn't !"

Women like Lyanna might not be crazy ass weapons, but they sure are crazy.

[MCBC]

Edric was told the story because it was true in my opinion. Why would so many people believe that they were in love? Not only people in Dorne but in Winterfell as well? We don't really know anything about Ned when it comes to his plans for life before the war happened.

So many people assume that just because Ned had an honorable reputation, it is impossible that he could have succumbed to temptation from a woman that he thought was so beautiful that he was too shy to ask her to dance. Ned wasn't a robot, he was a man, a young one which makes it even more plausible that the hormones took over. At the time that it happened, it wouldn't have been a huge dishonor because for all anybody knows they could have been secretly planning to be wed.

Another aspect to why I think this is true is, how was Eddard Stark able to walk out of Starfall alive when he was the man who killed Ser Arthur Dayne? You can sell me the story that they were impressed with his gesture but I think it's garbage. It doesn't hold up with the type of story we know this is. The real reason is R+L=J combined with the fact that they knew Eddard Stark was in love with Ashara & this was a situation gone wrong.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Hello - my first post

One thing that bothers me about the story of Ned and Edric both being wet-nursed by Wylla is the biology and timing of it. We know Ned is 12, and Jon is - say - 15 at the same time. So they are about three years apart. Jon was taken away from Wylla soon after his birth, so how come she still had milk three years later for Ned? Did she have a child of her own at the same time Jon was born? And did this child live and keep nursing until Edric was born? Or did her own child who was contemporary with Jon die? If so, she had to have another one at the time Ned was born to have the milk available for him. Wylla's own reproductive history has to be taken into account, I think.

And as an aside, it raises the possibility of one or two "low-born" babies available for all kinds of swapping shenanighans if GRRD is so inclined.

Well...she must have at least been pregnant at one point if she nursed Jon. Now, as with Lyssa & Sweet Robin, if you keep nursing, you may not stop lactating. As a wet-nurse it's very possible that the minute she stops nursing one child another is presented to her for her services. Or she could have had another child in between like you said.

[corbon]

Edric was told the story because it was true in my opinion. Why would so many people believe that they were in love? Not only people in Dorne but in Winterfell as well? We don't really know anything about Ned when it comes to his plans for life before the war happened.

Please read the thread. This has been answered several times already.

So many people assume that just because Ned had an honorable reputation, it is impossible that he could have succumbed to temptation from a woman that he thought was so beautiful that he was too shy to ask her to dance. Ned wasn't a robot, he was a man, a young one which makes it even more plausible that the hormones took over. At the time that it happened, it wouldn't have been a huge dishonor because for all anybody knows they could have been secretly planning to be wed.

People don't assume that, they read, and examine the evidence. Robert complains that Ned was "never the boy he was" in a clear indication Ned was always somewhat dour and dutiful type.

Another aspect to why I think this is true is, how was Eddard Stark able to walk out of Starfall alive when he was the man who killed Ser Arthur Dayne? You can sell me the story that they were impressed with his gesture but I think it's garbage. It doesn't hold up with the type of story we know this is. The real reason is R+L=J combined with the fact that they knew Eddard Stark was in love with Ashara & this was a situation gone wrong.

It absolutely holds up. An honourable opponent is treated honourably, most of the time. Lord Karstark's type of madness is an aberration, as is made clear by the reactions and expectations of Rob's other vassals.

Further, Ser Arthur Dayne was a man who had already left his family in effect, by joining the Kingsguard. There's no deep-seated need for revenge for his death, which was a natural and more-or-less-expected result of his life's purpose.

Remember also that the Daynes are legendary for their honour. THe only give their special family sword out to 'worthy' wielders, wihc are not even once every generation.

[dragontamer]

Well you do have to wonder why GRRM would bother adding into every book if there was meant to be nothing going on

There is certainly some secret important factor of the story that involves Ashara and Arthur Dayne but I don't think that's a romantic relationship between Ashara and a Stark.

[Black Wolf Smith]

IMO the reason that Edric thinks it was Ned, is because IT WAS NED!

Brandon was engaged to Cat. He had fought and almost killed LF over her. He would have to be some kind of Asshole to then turn around and steal the girl Ned liked.

Ned thinks his brother should have been Lord of WF, or should have been here, but never thinks anything bad about him. If Brandon had talked to Ashara for Ned, and then "dishonor her" as many believe, then Ned would likely been mad at him.

Ned doesn't want any one to talk about her, because it is painfull.

[dragontamer]

IMO the reason that Edric thinks it was Ned, is because IT WAS NED!

Don’t you find it weird that while Edric tells Arya that his aunt and Eddard were in love, the next minute he also names Wylla as Jon’s mother? The same Wylla that has been working for the Daynes. Isn’t this inconsistent? This is more Robert-like behaviour.

Ashara was a very beautiful woman, most likely had charmed many men and we know she danced with lot at Harenhall. I don’t see how she would choose a man like Eddard, he doesn’t seem exceptionally charismatic in any way and certainly not that good looking.

[eggs]

Ah! Ok I understand. I don't disagree that he didn't inspire respect, and his companions seem to overshadow him to a degree, but they do have the benefit of age on their side. He knows he's not as good at them at swordplay or jousting but I imagine he thinks of himself as competent... probably a lot like a young Ned Stark.

Ned actually was competent though. He was only a bit older when he set out on his own from the Eyrie to make his way north, and he later became a hero of the war.

I personally think he had great potential and if the dragon taming had worked, everyone would be like..."ye gods! That kid has balls of steel!" It's just a shame he didn't. There's also a lesson to take from the dragon taming incident. NEVER LEAVE YOUR WINGMAN!

A quentyn fanboy? That’s a rare sight. I’ll admit, it did seem like his dragon taming strategy was working.

Another aspect to why I think this is true is, how was Eddard Stark able to walk out of Starfall alive when he was the man who killed Ser Arthur Dayne? You can sell me the story that they were impressed with his gesture but I think it's garbage. It doesn't hold up with the type of story we know this is. The real reason is R+L=J combined with the fact that they knew Eddard Stark was in love with Ashara & this was a situation gone wrong.

I don’t disagree, but killing Ned would have been suicide. That would’ve brought Robert down on them again.

There is certainly some secret important factor of the story that involves Ashara and Arthur Dayne but I don't think that's a romantic relationship between Ashara and a Stark.

well Ned had to be pretty close to somebody in that family for Edric to be named for him.

Ashara was a very beautiful woman, most likely had charmed many men and we know she danced with lot at Harenhall. I don’t see how she would choose a man like Eddard, he doesn’t seem exceptionally charismatic in any way and certainly not that good looking.

Are Ned’s looks ever described beyond Cat saying he was plainer than Brandon?

[BericDondarrion]

You don't need to be "good" looking when your lord of WF and Warden of the North.

My theory is that Jon is Asharas daughter but the Daynes want to preserve her honor after "death" and not say that she had a child out of wedlock with Ned... Enter Wylla.

Something is up with this and it's not as simple as R+L=J...... Why would the Daynes call their future lord "Ned"?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You don't need to be "good" looking when your lord of WF and Warden of the North.

My theory is that Jon is Asharas daughter but the Daynes want to preserve her honor after "death" and not say that she had a child out of wedlock with Ned... Enter Wylla.

Something is up with this and it's not as simple as R+L=J...... Why would the Daynes call their future lord "Ned"?

It's Edric not Ned...

R+L=J is simple? Really?

[BericDondarrion]

It's Edric not Ned...

R+L=J is simple? Really?

Um yeah his name is Edric and he's called Ned.... Kinda like this guy named Eddard who is called Ned, you know the guy who killed the sword of the morning? There is no way the Daynes would give Edric, who is The Lord of starfall the nickname of the guy who killed their greatest member of the house.

[eggs]

You don't need to be "good" looking when your lord of WF and Warden of the North.

well he met ashara before he got all his fancy titles.

Um yeah his name is Edric and he's called Ned.... Kinda like this guy named Eddard who is called Ned, you know the guy who killed the sword of the morning? There is no way the Daynes would give Edric, who is The Lord of starfall the nickname of the guy who killed their greatest member of the house.

ayup. theres no way thats a coincidence.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Um yeah his name is Edric and he's called Ned.... Kinda like this guy named Eddard who is called Ned, you know the guy who killed the sword of the morning? There is no way the Daynes would give Edric, who is The Lord of starfall the nickname of the guy who killed their greatest member of the house.

Why? Just asking. The names don't belong to one house only.

By what you said they gave Edric the nickname of the person that dishonored their Lady?

[eggs]

Why? Just asking. The names don't belong to one house only.

By what you said they gave Edric the nickname of the person that dishonored their Lady?

so if sansa named her son Theon or Tywin (or some variant), you wouldnt find that strange?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

so if sansa named her son Theon or Tywin (or some variant), you wouldnt find that strange?

For Theon no(there was a Theon Stark before), I also wouldn't find strange a varation of a name. So I ask: Would Daynes named their heir with the name of the person who dishonored their Lady?

[Apple the Great]

Ned actually was competent though. He was only a bit older when he set out on his own from the Eyrie to make his way north, and he later became a hero of the war.

A quentyn fanboy? That’s a rare sight. I’ll admit, it did seem like his dragon taming strategy was working.

I don’t disagree, but killing Ned would have been suicide. That would’ve brought Robert down on them again.

I think Quentyn was competent, but I do think it said that Ser Gerris was better than him and Ser Archibald Yronwood was a lot bigger, so it's easy to see why he felt overshadowed. I guess I am a bit of a Quentyn fanboy :P I suppose I have a soft spot for 'mud' men, in a non romantic way. I think Ned was certainly competent, but given that Robert attributed the battle of the Bells to Ned, and Ned won at the ToJ, even though he was outnumbered, I think there's more to him than mere competency. If Ned was the KoLT then that would indicate he was actually quite skilled. I guess it's true, you don't need to be a particularly skilled swordsman to be a good commander, but it probably helps, and I do think that Ned was probably one of the better commanders in Westeros, especially he taught Robb and that's how Robb was such a kick-ass commander.

Great point about the Daynes and Robert. Robert would not be happy if the Daynes killed his best friend after the fighting was all over.