Question about the Gods (spoilers)

[The Red Pope]

patchface's survival, mental retardation, and prophecies seems to be clear indication of his power imo. same for Aeron being able to survive on sea water.

Mel says that he is a god that opposes rhollor.

Neither of them was in the sea longer than a human might survive. Jojen got his dreams after a severe disease and Bran after his coma. It seems that this sort of thing happens to those who have been near death. And nothing ever happens when sacrifices are made to him unlike the Red God.

Mel says that, but never gives a better motivation than "it's written in the ancient books of Asshai". We've never actually seen some dark spirit trying to take over the minds of wargs and greenseers as Mel seems to think he would.

Which Targ gift of insight into the future? There is absolutely no such thing.

Yes there is. that was the reason they moved to Dragonstone in the first place, because they had dreamt of the doom.

Here's a quote from the Hedge Knight.

“Did I? Well, it’s so. My dreams are not like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. You

frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they

could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead.”

Spoiler

That came true when prince Baelor died.

[Buckwheat]

Yes there is. that was the reason they moved to Dragonstone in the first place, because they had dreamt of the doom.

Here's a quote from the Hedge Knight.

Spoiler

That came true when prince Baelor died.

Oh right. My bad then, I only thought of Dany and Viserys.

Is it confirmed that many Targaryens haad such gift or was this an exception?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Oh right. My bad then, I only thought of Dany and Viserys.

Is it confirmed that many Targaryens haad such gift or was this an exception?

Yeah it's confirmed. Daeron Targaryen, son of Maekar had the gift and so did Daemon II Blackfyre

[eggs]

@The Red Pope: isnt Aeron able to survive on seawater alone? that should kill him.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Actually, almost every character has a prophetic dream. Only difference is Targaryen dreams are often involve dragons.

[The Red Pope]

@The Red Pope: isnt Aeron able to survive on seawater alone? that should kill him.

No, Victarion comments when they pull Moqorro out of the sea that the DG priests can take a sip now and then but no mortal man can survive on it. Mostly he seems to just pour it over people.

[mindchap]

Which Targ gift of insight into the future? There is absolutely no such thing.

I do not think Lancel's healing is in any way connected to the existance of the Seven.

Exactly.

Read the Dunk and Egg tales, the Targs have more than a few who see the future.

[Buckwheat]

@The Red Pope: isnt Aeron able to survive on seawater alone? that should kill him.

I think this is just a legend around him, it is not possible.

Read the Dunk and Egg tales, the Targs have more than a few who see the future.

It is on my reading list for a long time, I can never find time for it unfortunately.

[mindchap]

I think this is just a legend around him, it is not possible.

It is on my reading list for a long time, I can never find time for it unfortunately.

They are less than 100 pages each and add more depth to the asoiaf world, you get to see first hand some of the characters that only get mentioned in the main story. Plus you find out that there are just as many good and bad Targs as there are of any other family.

[Lord Godric]

I was always under the impression that Bloodraven, and therefore the "Old Gods" just sat outside of time and could see things that already happened and haven't yet happened. I guess things get murky because when we see the Old Gods having an influence they're effecting future events from the contemporary POV but it may be in the past for them?

I dunno, this makes my head hurt.

[a white raven]

When I first started reading these books I tended to believe that the story was centered on the Starks and the Lannisters. But once I got deeper into the stories of each one it seemed to me that the whole Ice and Fire story is Stark and Targ. And with the Targ gift of insight into the future and the Starks memory, they kind of fit as the two gods.

good observation, I never thought about it before but "The North remembers" is said several times, and some Targaryens (Dany especially) have premonitions through dreams.

[JMJ]

My theory re: religion, old vs. new gods is that GRRM is making the point that there are extraordinary events, most of them a result of magic, that humans have tried to explain away by creating religion, whether it's R'hllor, the Old Gods or the Seven. Just like in our world, wars have been fought over these religions obstensibly, but really it's mostly a pretext for fighting for political/economic power.

The First Men vs. CoTF, Andals vs. First Men, Volantis vs. Ghis, and most recently the impending R'hllor vs. Old Gods are all manifestations of the same struggles. Unfortunately, the other point in these books is that as a result, the small folk get f'ed no matter what.

[Krosby]

Which Targ gift of insight into the future? There is absolutely no such thing.

This is from the wiki of ice and fire. you see examples of targaryens having insight into the future in the dunk and egg stories.

"Another trait typical to Targaryens, and one that was passed on to the cadet house, House Blackfyre, was the ability to have premonition-like dreams."

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I've always presumed that there are no gods in the aSoIaF world, just magic mistaken for godlike powers. That premise, however, still leads to the question of how the Faith of the Seven gained a foothold in Andalos without any "magic miracles". Maybe those seven-sided crystals can actually do something if the overall level of world magic is high enough. I'd love to see Lancel take down Robert Strong in Cercei's Trial by Combat with some crystal magic.

[The Red Pope]

I've always presumed that there are no gods in the aSoIaF world, just magic mistaken for godlike powers. That premise, however, still leads to the question of how the Faith of the Seven gained a foothold in Andalos without any "magic miracles". Maybe those seven-sided crystals can actually do something if the overall level of world magic is high enough. I'd love to see Lancel take down Robert Strong in Cercei's Trial by Combat with some crystal magic.

The success of the Andals was due to their superior weapon technology and their fanatical devotion to their cause.

It's said that they invaded with iron weapons, iron might have been used by the First Men before that but the forging technique was likely more advanced in Essos. And real or no the confidence that a gods are on your side is a powerful motivation.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The success of the Andals was due to their superior weapon technology and their fanatical devotion to their cause.

It's said that they invaded with iron weapons, iron might have been used by the First Men before that but the forging technique was likely more advanced in Essos. And real or no the confidence that a gods are on your side is a powerful motivation.

I was actually referring to how the Faith of the Seven got started in Essos, not the invasion of Westeros. Sorry for not being clear.

[mindchap]

Okay when I said Gods I was referring to the ones that we actually see first hand examples of, the seven seems to be a faith just based on faith. As for the Drowned God, that I think would fall in with the magic of the CotF, because at one time they call forth the waters to flood The Neck in their war with the First Men, but I still haven't gone back through and read all the Kraken chapters again so I may be way off. Then there is also the Titan of Braavos, but I don't remember if there was any mention of any actual events involving him, again I'm still working on a reread of a few different things.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I think it's pretty clear that groups of different people just come up with a "god" to worship.

Iron Islands use sacrifices to have favorable winds and etc. If they got favorable winds etc. then it was because they made a sacrifice and not because it was a coincidence. It's very possible that there is "magic" in the blood sacrifice though. Same with the old gods. The Children of the Forest, were not actually children and the "old gods" are not actually gods but greenseers gifted children can hear prayers that people make to weirwood trees, but his powers are limited, for instance BR only has 1,001 eyes and 100 skins.

The Red God seems to have derived from Valaryian socercy. Fire and blood. Very possible that "shadowbinders" were a spin-off from there too or they just directly came from Valaryia.

The Seven seem to be the religion that tries to not use magic of nature or magic of fire. Their "motive" seems to be a world without magic. Kinda like the Citadel. Praying to the seven has it actually been seen to work to anyone's advantage? Well only the Stranger since the Faceless Men consider him part of the God of Many Faces and Many Names, death. I don't think there's many other instances of prayers actually being answered by the new gods, because without blood sacrifices they have the least power of all.

At best I could say that I'd consider the act of prayer and devotion to the seven help people cope with grief, stress etc. because of the meditative properties of it.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think there's no connection between red priests and shadowbinders. Melisandre's shadow baby and glamor tricks are because of shadowbinding and I don't think that Patchface became a prophet thanks to the Drowned God.

[mindchap]

I'm also extremely curious as to what else Jojen has dreamed that he has not told Meera and Bran. Near the end of Bran's part in that last book when he asks Meera and Jojen about the greenseers, Jojen goes on to describe them but ends up scaring Bran. Meera tells him to stop he's scaring him and Jojen replies that he should not be the one who's afraid.