Heresy 45

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 45, this week’s edition of the thread series that offers an alternative interpretation of the Song of Ice and Fire, currently in conjunction with its own re-read franchise run by Nanother on the main board http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/

So what’s Heresy all about and why is it such a successful thread?

Heresy is about challenging the orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest will give Bran the knowledge of how to defeat the Others, that Jon is Azor Ahai, and will use that knowledge to save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name. Instead on the basis of the available evidence we contend that Jon will be King of Winter and that far from being something built by men as a bulwark against the Others, the Wall was raised by great magics and is itself be the cause of the imbalance in the seasons. Thus it follows that its fall is in fact necessary to achieve a resolution of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

In general, whilst not immune from crackpottery and outbreaks of light-heartedness, the Heresies have a very sound basis in the text, especially as the story has moved on from those easy assumptions in the beginning to become much more complex, darker and a lot less certain – especially as far as the Starks are concerned.

It is an eclectic thread covering a wide variety of topics. Some have been or are raised as topics in their own right elsewhere in the forum, but through experience we’ve found that ranging freely allows us to properly discuss different aspects of the story both in their own immediate context and to see where they may fit into the wider story.

If you’re new to Heresy you may be confused by frequent references to the Others as the Sidhe and to something called the Morrigan. Both come from the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and exhibiting three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone - and we also note the way in which crows dominate the whole story, which is why some of us have our suspicions about their true significance, because the crows in short, including Mormont’s (and now Jon’s) raven, appear to be players in their own right rather than convenient vessels for warging. Although the Morrigan herself will probably never be identified as such in the story GRRM has planted an unmistakable cookie in the form of House Morrigen and so we feel justified in referring to her as a shorthand for this.

Likewise we note both GRRM’s reference to the Others being like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way they behave like them as well, not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend. And once again we frequently refer to them so not because they will be revealed as such in WoW but because it better describes them than the anonymous “Others”.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children (who so far have conspicuously said nothing to Bran about the Others) are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well; that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends of the Red lot.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes the thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Ending topics from H44:

Craster and his sons

Coldhands and his history/allegiances/etc.

New material from the show

As you were...

[Little Wing]

*singing to herself constantly since seeing the trailer*

"Dig up her bones but leave the soul alone..."

So. Appropriate.

[Joken79]

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes the thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

I've got the impression that after 45 Threads it is difficult to find something which wasn't discussed earlier, from a beginners perspective. But I try anyway.

A possible scenario born out of thoughts about the Kings of Winter and perhaps a little bit too heretic:

After reading in the past heresy threads and the wiki I came across the house of the undying where Dany sees Rhaegar with a woman nursing a babe.

He called the babe Aegon but the name of the woman isn't mentioned. I am certain that someone in the R+L=J threads already came to the conclusion that this woman was not Elia but might be Lyanna and Jon (=Aegon) is the prince that was promised.

I wonder why he is mentioned as "the prince that was promised". When I would make a prophecy I would speak of a king that was promised. That simply sounds better.

I could imagine that it means that someone (a ruling king) was promised a heir.

It might be that there are two Kings in the North. The King in the North, the Stark ruling in Winterfell, and the King of Winter, ruling the winter somewhere north of the wall. Over time this two titles were mixed and the existence of the King of Winter was forgotten by most men.

We don't know what Lyanna knew about the whole Stark family business in the North, but could it be that she knew that there is a King of Winter, a Stark, who waits for a successor, because he is growing too old and his powers are dwindling.

But what would be the task of a King of Winter?

I have the suspicion that the person sitting on the throne of winter has the ability to influence the seasons, keeping balance between summer and winter.

But what would happen when this balance is disturbed, because the person ruling as King of Winter is struggling with his demanding task because his powers are dwindling and he is waiting too long for the "prince that was promised"?

When balance in nature is disturbed, then magic could become stronger, and some fractions like the red priests would benefit from this imbalance, because their power rises. So they have no interest in balance in nature (summer that never ends). And last but not least the dead are rising.

Is there an evidence that magic comes with the rise of the dragons, like someone in the books mentions? This might be a coincidence concerning the time line.

I think King of winter isn't an easy fate, because the song Rhaegar played on his harp is described as "sweet sadness". Not to mention Brans reaction looking in the heart of winter.

I think they maybe called the TV-Show "Game of thrones" and not "A song of ice and fire", because it definitely is a game of thrones, but the important one is not made of iron.

[Joyful Union]

The Children of the Forest actually young children who are offered to the Others, such as Crasters sons.

[Black Crow]

Thoughts on Coldhands in the light of recent discussions about life...

We've discussed how the difference between the wights raised by Ice and those raised by Fire is that the former are cold dead things, lacking the all consuming flame of life breathed by the Red Lot.

Coldhands presents a problem in that unlike ordinary cold wights he doesn't have blue eyes and behaves as though he is alive, yet we know he hasn't been raised by Fire because Summer recognises the cold smell in him.

We've also discussed in the past how its a constant of folklore that Faerie peoples such as the Sidhe need human servants to do what they themselves can't, such as walk abroad in the daylight and on reflection I think that this is where Coldhands has come in. Ordinary wights as we've seen are of limited use, slow, clumsy and largely interested in seeking the warmth of life. Coldhands I believe has been raised and somehow given his life back in order to better serve the Sidhe

[Black Crow]

I've got the impression that after 45 Threads it is difficult to find something which wasn't discussed earlier, from a beginners perspective.

It constantly surprises us how much we can find, either through new people such as yourself providing fresh perspectives, picking up unconsidered trifles on re-reads, or completely new material such as the Sidhe revelation and the more recent northern prophecies about the significance of the red star heralding the long winter, and the return of the ancient Lords of Winter.

As to that business in the House of the Undying however, GRRM himself has confirmed that the woman is Elia, not Lyanna.

ETA: its always worth making the point, especially for non-English readers, that prince is not necessarily a specific title. Usually these days prince is used to denote someone one-step down from a king or queen who spends his days drumming his fingers on the table waiting for said king or queen to drop off their perch in order that he can get the throne. In fact GRRM appears to be using the term in its wider sense of someone with royal blood. All kings are princes but not all princes are kings.

[Joken79]

It constantly surprises us how much we can find, either through new people such as yourself providing fresh perspectives, picking up unconsidered trifles on re-reads, or completely new material such as the Sidhe revelation and the more recent northern prophecies about the significance of the red star heralding the long winter, and the return of the ancient Lords of Winter.

As to that business in the House of the Undying however, GRRM himself has confirmed that the woman is Elia, not Lyanna.

ETA: its always worth making the point, especially for non-English readers, that prince is not necessarily a specific title. Usually these days prince is used to denote someone one-step down from a king or queen who spends his days drumming his fingers on the table waiting for said king or queen to drop off their perch in order that he can get the throne. In fact GRRM appears to be using the term in its wider sense of someone with royal blood. All kings are princes but not all princes are kings.

Thanks for the explanation.

So Daenerys sees the moment where Rhaegar said something over the prophecy about the "prince that was promised". But it is possible that Rhaegar made a mistake, and later tried successfully to father another boy to whom the prophecy "fits better".

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to reanimate a R+L=J discussion, it's about the King of Winter!

[Black Crow]

I think part of the problem with that scene is that Rhaegar quite clearly says that there must be three (presumably an allusion to three heads of the dragon) yet too many people interpret him as referring to a third and its that individual who is the important bit not the trio together.

[redriver]

"Crows/Ravens are all over the place" doesn't really signify to me that they are particular aspects of the old gods made flesh.Especially since the gods cited are new gods,aspects of the Seven,- Mother,Maiden,Crone.

What about the dead ravens we see?Who committed deicide?Who turned them into wights?

[Aleksandar]

Ok...i think i have something interesting here....

When Bran is in the cave during the conversation whit Leaf,Leaf warns Bran that he should never try to resurrect the dead...

Which means that bran can resurrect the dead....can he do that because he is greenseer,warg or skinchanger.

If bran can do it i presume Jon can do it as well....

I know that every1 is saying that after the stabbing Jon warged into the Ghost.....BUT

IIRC

Jon never felt the fort knife just the COLD(Summer describes Coldhands just a cold)....What if he didn't warg into the Ghost but into those two dead people he put into the ice cells.....What if he just risen 2 dead bodes back to life.....They jump in front of Bowen Marsh and other stabbers and start killing people around....That would be very nice to see.... :cool4:

[Joken79]

I think part of the problem with that scene is that Rhaegar quite clearly says that there must be three (presumably an allusion to three heads of the dragon) yet too many people interpret him as referring to a third and its that individual who is the important bit not the trio together.

I understand. So he had no knowledge from Lyanna about the Stark history of the Kings of Winter.

At the moment I have a picture in mind of a forgotten (the older Starks are all dead or missed) current King of Winter, who desperately tries to hinder winter getting out of control.

[Black Crow]

That I believe is certainly the purpose of the King of Winter, not necessarily to embody Winter but to control it and specifically to keep those "ancient Lords of Winter" under control, just as any king rules over and controls his vassals.

[Joken79]

That I believe is certainly the purpose of the King of Winter, not necessarily to embody Winter but to control it and specifically to keep those "ancient Lords of Winter" under control, just as any king rules over and controls his vassals.

Do you mean with "ancient Lords of Winter" the Sidhe?

Then how can it be that a human became King of Winter? Have the Children their hand in the game?

[redriver]

Do you mean with "ancient Lords of Winter" the Sidhe?

Then how can it be that a human became King of Winter? Have the Children their hand in the game?

The King of Winter was meant to keep his human vassals in control,obey their side of the Pact.It was a title and responsibility granted by the old gods,as agreed by the old races.

But there were consequences or "dire prognostications" built into the small,or not so small print of the Pact.

[Joken79]

The King of Winter was meant to keep his human vassals in control,obey their side of the Pact.It was a title and responsibility granted by the old gods,as agreed by the old races.

But there were consequences or "dire prognostications" built into the small,or not so small print of the Pact.

I assume here that the King of Winter rules north of the wall. But something is going wrong at the moment. Winter is getting out of control, at least one of the old races seems to think that the pact has lost its validation.

[Black Crow]

"Crows/Ravens are all over the place" doesn't really signify to me that they are particular aspects of the old gods made flesh.Especially since the gods cited are new gods,aspects of the Seven,- Mother,Maiden,Crone.

What about the dead ravens we see?Who committed deicide?Who turned them into wights?

Ah, slight misunderstanding here. What's being argued is that Crows are players in their own right, not as gods but as minions of the Crow Goddess, the Morrigan. As to the Old Gods and the New we had quite an extensive discussion on the last thread trying to reconcile both the old and the new and the elements of the Reeds' oath.

[Black Crow]

I assume here that the King of Winter rules north of the wall. But something is going wrong at the moment. Winter is getting out of control, at least one of the old races seems to think that the pact has lost its validation.

I think it would probably be more accurate to say that right now there is no King of Winter, which is why Jon must step up.

[Black Crow]

Do you mean with "ancient Lords of Winter" the Sidhe?

Then how can it be that a human became King of Winter? Have the Children their hand in the game?

Don't know if the Children are actively involved in this but what we have discussed in the past is the Nights King marrying the Queen of Faerie. If the connection was lost with the downfall of the Nights King it may have been re-established or rather Sidhe blood re-introduced by Bael the Bard/Tam Lin.

[Joken79]

I think it would probably be more accurate to say that right now there is no King of Winter, which is why Jon must step up.

But what saw Bran at the Heart of Winter. An empty throne can't be that terrible (assuming in the heart of winter is the throne of winter).

What could have happened to the last one?