Despise Tyrion?

[Daphne23]

Dany and Tyrion are both characters Martin seems to be using to pose moral dilemmas and he has successfully stayed so close to the center line that some people see them as heroes and others see them as villains. It really is a brilliant bit of writing to create a book where one person's hero is another's villain.

Good call on the Fevre Dream quote - I read the novel a while back, but didn't pick up on the 'fire and blood' reference.

Dany could be a fascinating counterpoint to Tyrion in this type of discussion, as I think we could usefully ask the question 'when did you lose sympathy for Dany?' as well. Again, we're clearly meant to sympathise with her in Game, and, as with Tyrion, GRRM then uses the fund of sympathy he's built up to encourage readers to excuse some of her actions later in the series. For me, Dany hasn't crossed a moral event horizon yet and I'm still fairly ambivalent about her, but I know that, for some readers, she really has. I guess I'm waiting to see in which direction her character goes in the future before I make up my mind, and although I know she has done some morally wrong things, they haven't been enough yet to entirely convince me to dislike her, although I can definitely understand the arguments posters make about why she is a loose cannon. Again, I think it's significant that her interests haven't been opposed to those of anyone else I care about yet - if she was, for some reason, set against Jon or Sansa, for example, I would lose sympathy for her pretty quickly.

[The_ Laughing_Storm]

Well I like him, I'm also quite glad he killed Tywin it's not like he didn't deserve it, Yes he has done some pretty bad things but accusing him of rape and gang rape is a bit harsh.

Its not like he's murderd random people for no reason either, The people who he murderd fully deserved it in my eyes.

My only problem was him telling Jaime he killed Joffrey

[Lummel]

Good call on the Fevre Dream quote - I read the novel a while back, but didn't pick up on the 'fire and blood' reference.

Dany could be a fascinating counterpoint to Tyrion in this type of discussion, as I think we could usefully ask the question 'when did you lose sympathy for Dany?' as well. Again, we're clearly meant to sympathise with her in Game, and, as with Tyrion, GRRM then uses the fund of sympathy he's built up to encourage readers to excuse some of her actions later in the series. For me, Dany hasn't crossed a moral event horizon yet and I'm still fairly ambivalent about her, but I know that, for some readers, she really has. I guess I'm waiting to see in which direction her character goes in the future before I make up my mind, and although I know she has done some morally wrong things, they haven't been enough yet to entirely convince me to dislike her, although I can definitely understand the arguments posters make about why she is a loose cannon. Again, I think it's significant that her interests haven't been opposed to those of anyone else I care about yet - if she was, for some reason, set against Jon or Sansa, for example, I would lose sympathy for her pretty quickly.

For me that moral event horizon would be in ASOS when she use power irresponsibly and only by ADWD realises what Maester Aemon tells in Jon in AGOT about having blood on your hands (to pick up on Ragnorak's use of that symbol).

This issue of power and responsibilty expressed through the symbol of clean or dirty hands is referred to a few times during the series - another explicit example of this is Littlefinger talking to Sansa on the ship to the Vale in ASOS.

I'm not sure that Tyrion has quite reached his clean or dirty hands moment. Daenerys spends ADWD trying to deal with the real results of exercising and having exercised power in a world that turns out to be increasingly complex while Tyrion is struggling through a second childhood and adolescence following on from the murder of his father.

I would agree that comparing Tyrion with other characters is the thing to do. The song of ice and fire is sung by many voices, all of which offer some degree of commentry on the others. Tyrion is in the position that taking responsibility was relevent only in so far as he felt the need to be responsible for the interests of House Lannister. Until the end of ASOS he was quite prepared to put his own interests beneath those of his house - although with bad grace over his inheritance and with some limited objections to his marriage. It's only his sister accusing him of murder and his father's failure to squelch that accusation that push him to put himself first but his move to taking a fuller degree of responsibility remain limited. Implictly in Tyrion V ADWD he thinks that it would have been an acceptable punishment to gang rape Tysha if she had been a prostitute...which is both shocking and obviously self justifying, its only now that he presumes she was only a crofters daughter that he allows himself some guilt.

I suspect that Tyrion may turn out to have the longest and most interesting journey in terms of achieving, or not, a sense of responsibilty for his actions in the world.

[TalalOfDorne]

I dont despise him. Hes actually one of my favorites, but I will never justify a lot of his actions.

There have been a lot of Tyrion threads recently though.

[1234567]

I think Ragnorak's post summed it up almost perfectly.

Tyrion is initially a character who you root for wholeheartedly. The author goes out of his way to make him sympathetic so that any possibly grey deed is against a character you don't particularly like. Then something will crop up that makes you re-evaluate him. Also the Current Tyrion re-read thread has been fantastic at going through his actions and thoughts step by step.

Personally I am beginning to find his plot armour ridiculous. Other than that, he is still an interesting character (I thought even his ADWD chapters were very good), but he has become a character that I don't particularly like or hope survives the series due to his actions and almost complete lack of taking any responsibility for his actions.

[David Selig]

I could've sworn I saw quite a lot compassion toward Alayaya.

Anyway, as a misogynist he's shamelessly slacking. I mean, after Catelyn whimsically told him that any hypothetical rescue party would be looking for him in the wrong place, and he doesn't even bother to think that it hurts to be outsmarted by a woman?

Actually that's exactly what he did.

"Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction."

[Idreamedofyou]

Tyrion is one of my favourite characters. And I really want to stress the fact that I LIKE him. But. I have a bit of a problem with the way GRRM writes him.

You can easily tell Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. It didn't bother me that much in GoT. The characters were all new, all the paths lay open ahead of them, anything could happen... It didn't bother me that Tyrion, despite being dubbed the 'evil Lannister', was almost best friends with Jon right away. He helped Bran to get a proper saddle suited for disabled. He still managed to sympathize with Starks even though Catelyn accused him of the attempted murder of her son.

I liked Tyrion very much in CoK. He tried so hard to make everything right, despite it being almost a mission impossible. Still... Against all odds, he managed to defeat Stannis with his cunning ideas. He kept Cersei at bay and identified her spies to make them work for him. He saved Sansa from Joffrey and again sympathized with a Stark because he could relate to how difficult it must be for her because all Lannisters are evil and ruthless. He bravely led troops in battle against Stannis, just like Jaime would have.

Sure, he faces hardships, like growing up in a family that hates and despises him (Jaime has always loved him and he's/has been on good terms with his uncles, and all the Lannister wealth is open for him - so sure, his life seems to be full of horrible misfortunes). Losing his first love. Getting taken to Eyrie and being accused for crimes. Losing his nose in a battle (so we can be sure he's so ugly no woman will ever want him).

I could go through the events in SoS, FfC and DwD, but the basic point is: Whatever gets thrown at Tyrion, his is the ultimate wisdom and cunning and survival. Every character in the series recognizes his worth and intelligence. He can blunder through battles and fire and drowning and he still manages to pull through. He is always at the center of the main happenings.

And because he is a vile-looking dwarf with great misfortunes and all the hate and sufferings directed at him, we readers are supposed to sympathize with him and think of him as a protagonist worth certain privileges at long last.

So I love Tyrion very much, as Tyrion. I like him as a sympathizing, shrewd little thing in GoT. I like him as a dark and depraved creature in DwD. But could he please be just that, just one of the characters. GRRM seems to be a great writer, capable of creating believable characters and not-your-average-fantasy, with brilliant settings and plots. Everything just so unbeliavably admirable. So why this one Gary Sue...

[mcb]

Actually that's exactly what he did.

"Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction."

I honestly find nothing misogynistic in his thoughts here, and I'm genuinely surprised that you can. Substitute "this god-damn she-wolf Catelyn Stark" with, let's say, "this god-damn wolf Robb Stark" - would you argue then that it proves Tyrion's misandry? It's being outsmarted that hurt, not being outsmarted by a woman.

[Winter's Knight]

I honestly find nothing misogynistic in his thoughts here, and I'm genuinely surprised that you can. Substitute "this god-damn she-wolf Catelyn Stark" with, let's say, "this god-damn wolf Robb Stark" - would you argue then that it proves Tyrion's misandry? It's being outsmarted that hurt, not being outsmarted by a woman.

There's also:

That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man’s voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak.

[David Selig]

I honestly find nothing misogynistic in his thoughts here, and I'm genuinely surprised that you can. Substitute "this god-damn she-wolf Catelyn Stark" with, let's say, "this god-damn wolf Robb Stark" - would you argue then that it proves Tyrion's misandry? It's being outsmarted that hurt, not being outsmarted by a woman.

It's a pretty extreme reaction for just being outsmarted, even for Tyrion and his bloated ego - bitter rage for days and thinking it's worse than the captivity and possible execution itself. I don't recall anything like this when LF, Tywin, Varys, etc, outsmarted him. From the way it's phrased, it seems to me that being outsmarted by a "she-wolf" made it that much worse for Tyrion.

[mcb]

It's a pretty extreme reaction for just being outsmarted, even for Tyrion and his bloated ego - bitter rage for days and thinking it's worse than the captivity and possible execution itself.

It was still tamer than his reaction to Marillion's mockery. Same place, same time, comparably insignificant offense, and Tyrion was really pissed off at the singer. He may hate women... but he hates men much more. How is it that whenever he acts like a dick toward a woman, he's a misogynist, but him acting like a dick toward men (which he does constantly) isn't any indicator of his gender prejudices?

I don't recall anything like this when LF, Tywin, Varys, etc, outsmarted him. From the way it's phrased, it seems to me that being outsmarted by a "she-wolf" made it that much worse for Tyrion.

I think I recall Tyrion's livid hatred toward Littlefinger, and hatred formed also a big part of his relationship with Tywin. I don't foresee us two reaching common ground here.

[Batman]

More since I read his idea of crowning Myrcella. He knew that she would likely end up dead. All he cared about was vengeance.

[Joyful Union]

Actually that's exactly what he did.

"Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction."

Nothing in this suggests a general hated of women at all. He's just mad at being outwitted.

[protar]

It was still tamer than his reaction to Marillion's mockery. Same place, same time, comparably insignificant offense, and Tyrion was really pissed off at the singer. He may hate women... but he hates men much more. How is it that whenever he acts like a dick toward a woman, he's a misogynist, but him acting like a dick toward men (which he does constantly) isn't any indicator of his gender prejudices?

I really hate this double standard, and I see it all over the place. If something happens to a man, then the focus is on the event. When something happens to a woman the focus on the fact that it's a woman. And worse, this view is put about by feminists who are lobbying for equal rights. Double standards are the wrong way to go about it.

Tyrion certainly has a very unhealthy relationship with women, and a smidge of misogyny as a result of cultural influences but I wouldn't say he's a misogynist by the standards of the setting. Prior to ADWD he tends to respect women that are deserving of respect and from what we see of his pre-adwd interactions with prostitutes he's perfectly decent and respectful of them. I mean look at his interactions with Chataya and Alayaya. He shows interest in their culture and personal lives, he does all he can in his situation to make amends for Alayaya. Christ, he feels guilty that one of the prostitutes is losing a rather trivial bet on account of him. These aren't the actions of a man who is disrespectful and dismissive of women.

People need to stop conflating Misogyny with having an unhealthy relationship with women.

[The Dragon King]

The mafia tries to get people to pay them first before they kill them too.

OMG, Tyrion was trying to pay the singer, he wasn't trying to get paid by him. The singer was trying to blackmail Tyrion by exposing Shae, which could get her killed, to prevent this Tyrion wanted the guy out of Westeros to protect Shae and offered to pay him to do so. I'm utterly amazed how you people are trying to twist this scenario to make Tyrion to be the bad guy, I literally think that Tyrion could feed some starving orphan and you'd somehow twist it to mean that he was actually trying to kill the child.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Aint nobody got time for dat! Tyrion is a baus..but seriously though he is one the most tactically astute characters :bowdown:

[David Selig]

Prior to ADWD he tends to respect women that are deserving of respect and from what we see of his pre-adwd interactions with prostitutes he's perfectly decent and respectful of them.

Except that time when he slapped Shae. Or when he treated her like a sex doll for all his claims to love her, with all his "Shut up and let's have sex, you only help me between the sheets" moments. Or Tysha. But apart from this...

It was still tamer than his reaction to Marillion's mockery. Same place, same time, comparably insignificant offense, and Tyrion was really pissed off at the singer. He may hate women... but he hates men much more. How is it that whenever he acts like a dick toward a woman, he's a misogynist, but him acting like a dick toward men (which he does constantly) isn't any indicator of his gender prejudices?

Did I ever deny Tyrion tend to be a real jerk towards everyone? No. But it doesn't mean he doesn't have misogynist tendencies. Like being unreasonably and excessively angry by being outsmarted specifically by a woman...

OMG, Tyrion was trying to pay the singer, he wasn't trying to get paid by him. The singer was trying to blackmail Tyrion by exposing Shae, which could get her killed, to prevent this Tyrion wanted the guy out of Westeros to protect Shae and offered to pay him to do so. I'm utterly amazed how you people are trying to twist this scenario to make Tyrion to be the bad guy, I literally think that Tyrion could feed some starving orphan and you'd somehow twist it to mean that he was actually trying to kill the child.

Symon had the right to refuse the deal Tyrion offered. It's a murder, plain and simple. Comparing it to feeding an orphan is laughable. Yeah, Symon was a blackmailer, but so is Tyrion, and he blackmailed his own first cousin instead of a stranger. Tyrion is the bad guy here because a murder is worse than a blackmail.