Who is the Rightful Ruler?

[Winterz]

I'd say they were still pretenders, just because they defeated Stannis, that doesn'tmean Joffrey/Tommen were legitamized

Robert was a "pretender". So was Aegon I, in a way.

[The Red Star]

Tommen is King. Thats it.

[LuisDantas]

So with all that in mind, I want the board's opinions, who do you think was/is the best ruler,

So far, Tyrion and Kevan. Let's call it a technical tie.

and deserved/deserves victory, and rule?

Of those still living as of the end of ADWD, and that claim the Iron Throne?

Aegon, no doubt. Jaime may yet raise to the challenge, though. Jon would be an even better choice than either if he is, shall I say, available.

Tyrion would be a strong contender, but I doubt he will ever want the role. He got bitter from his experience as Hand in ACOK.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

"rightful" not "best" ruler... best ruler would have been Ned Stark by miles and far.

[Andreas]

Renly was a genuine usurper - he knew perfectly well that he had no right to deny any claim by Stannis, but did so anyway.

I never really understood why Renly declared himself king, since like you say, he had absolutely no claim at all.

That is why Stannis is the rightfull king.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

Stannis

[mcb]

The error is in the very question itself. The position of "the rightful king" is vacant. Tommen is a bastard. Stannis attempted to claim the realm by the right of birth, but the realm answered "go fuck yourself". Daenerys needs to find a single bannerman on the continent first, and Faegon needs to win more than just the Stormlands. They are all pretenders.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

Robert was a "pretender". So was Aegon I, in a way.

That way would make the Andals and the First Men usurpers too. Therefore a CotF would be the rightful king.

[lostinwesteros]

Jon Snow, actually Targaryen

He has the best claim to the Iron Throne being Rhaegar's legitimate son.

Yes!

Jon Snow = TPTWP.

[RedtheWarrior]

Just how "legitimate" is the rule of the Targaryens anyway, given that they came as conquerors and established their name by using their dragons to kill as many enemies on the battlefield as they were able? Do they, in fact, have any better a claim than Robert Baratheon?

I agree, I think that Martin tries to get away from the whole idea of the blood/dna making someone a rightful ruler, like in mythology, that's why Rob Baratheon had bastard children everywhere and every house in the North can claim some lineage to the Starks (Think it was Jon Snow said that to Stannis).

[Winterz]

That way would make the Andals and the First Men usurpers too. Therefore a CotF would be the rightful king.

Nope it would simply mean that the "line of succession" doesn't mean anything in Westeros. You cannot claim the throne because you're the legitimate heir, you must take it by force!

[Night's Watchmen]

I quote Lord Velaryon(dead now) : "Steel will decide that". Claims are words and words are wind. Why do you believe Targaryens or Baratheons are rightful rulers? They just claimed they were, and won it. So in the end, steel decided the matter and it will once again.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Stannis the mannis Baratheon!

[MyaStone]

Jon Snow = TPTWP.

If we believe that Jon Snow = TPTWP, (which I do) then the rightful heir is either Dany or Aegon (assuming that he's not a fake). The key word in TPTWP is Prince, meaning he would not have to be the king to fulfill the prophecy. IMHO

Theories aside, I'm going with Stannis. I hate to admit it, because he's not the most likeable man, but if bloodline means anything he has the claim.

There is is still the fact that Stannis lost at BW, which would give rule to the Lannisters and since Tommen currently sits the Iron Throne and is Lannister.....

This could go on forever.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Whomever can win and hold the throne is the claimant. This has been true since Aegon the Conqueror. Dragons = power = rightful king. Robert 'usurped' this dynasty and became legitimate. He extinguished and exiled the Targs and then claimed legitimacy through some ancestor Targ. To 'loyalists' this would have been BS but so what - you want a hammer?

Whomever sits the throne will have some similar 'I am the descendant of so-and-so' story to bolster their claims, but it will be the power to take it and keep it that will be the marker.

[Ser Illifer the Penniless]

I never really understood why Renly declared himself king, since like you say, he had absolutely no claim at all.

That is why Stannis is the rightfull king.

In his private meeting with Catelyn atop Lord Caswell's castle, Renly mentions that, if Ned had taken his advice and took Joffrey into his power, he would never "had" to take the throne.

Renly felt he "had" to declare himself king because (1) he could not seize Joffrey on his own; (2) he knew House Lannister would move quickly to eliminate Ned, Stannis and himself; (3) Stannis had isolated himself on Dragonstone, was not flexible enough to work with, and in any case, would have been an "appalling" king; and most importantly, (4) he needed to bind House Tyrell to his cause before anyone else did.

[JLE]

Robert was a usurper, but so were the entire Targaryen dynasty, they were just usurpers that managed to stick around long enough to become a tradition.

IF one accepts the legitimacy of Robert (and thus, "winning the kingdom in battle" as a legitimate way to rule), then Stannis would be the only person entitled to take the kingdom WITHOUT a battle.

And if you're going with "the throne goes to the strongest", then the Lannisters would have been better off to gear up for a few battles and crown Tywin, than let it go to Joffrey. Unless, of course, Tywin knows that he will not be succeeded by an acceptable heir (Jaime having joined the Kingsguard, and Tyrion would never be accepted by either people or nobility): but that's unlikely since there are plenty enough other Lannisters for future generations. Kevan and his sons being the most obvious.

The Baratheon dynasty, even if Stannis or Renly drove the Lannisters out, would end up with the same problem: Stannis's only child is a sick, disfigured daughter who will never find a husband that dares to touch her (for fear that the greyscale might still be virulent, although it is alleged to have stopped progressing in Shireen's case, it hasn't gone away), and Renly himself would also be unlikely to sire any children. So there is never going to be a long-lasting Baratheon dynasty. Either king would not realistically have a chance of an heir.

Really, Ned should have told Robert the bad news (about Jaime and Cersei) on his deathbed, and Robert would probably have signed a decree of legitimisation for Edric Storm - who besides being a Baratheon on his father's side, is also sufficiently noble on his mother's side - just to spite Stannis and Renly. Stannis would have blazed with fury but kept quiet since Edric is at least Robert's child, i.e. a bastard of the *right* parent (i.e. son of the actual king): and Renly has already been looking after Edric, so he probably wouldn't have minded missing out on the kingship if it went to effectively his own surrogate son who is all the son he's really going to have.

That would have allowed Ned, with a clear conscience, to call on Renly's immediate assistance instead of turning it down (as a result of which Renly fled the city), and thus having *his* men there to arrest Cersei and Jaime, and thus not having to rely on Littlefinger to bribe the goldcloaks.

[Ser Illifer the Penniless]

The Baratheon dynasty, even if Stannis or Renly drove the Lannisters out, would end up with the same problem: Stannis's only child is a sick, disfigured daughter who will never find a husband that dares to touch her (for fear that the greyscale might still be virulent, although it is alleged to have stopped progressing in Shireen's case, it hasn't gone away), and Renly himself would also be unlikely to sire any children. So there is never going to be a long-lasting Baratheon dynasty. Either king would not realistically have a chance of an heir.

Really, Ned should have told Robert the bad news (about Jaime and Cersei) on his deathbed, and Robert would probably have signed a decree of legitimisation for Edric Storm - who besides being a Baratheon on his father's side, is also sufficiently noble on his mother's side - just to spite Stannis and Renly. Stannis would have blazed with fury but kept quiet since Edric is at least Robert's child, i.e. a bastard of the *right* parent (i.e. son of the actual king): and Renly has already been looking after Edric, so he probably wouldn't have minded missing out on the kingship if it went to effectively his own surrogate son who is all the son he's really going to have.

That would have allowed Ned, with a clear conscience, to call on Renly's immediate assistance instead of turning it down (as a result of which Renly fled the city), and thus having *his* men there to arrest Cersei and Jaime, and thus not having to rely on Littlefinger to bribe the goldcloaks.

Although all agree that Renly preferred Loras to his sister, Renly was intent on producing an heir of his own body. He said as much at Storm's End, where he stated that he expected to have a child by Margaery within a year, and mocked Stannis for his lack of sons. In AFfC we also learn that Renly was definitely *stimulated* at the bedding, though he may have been "too drunk" to do the deed.

Legitimizing Edric Storm would have been an interesting plot development, though Edric may yet have a part to play...

Had Ned accepted Renly's help they might have seized Joffrey and arrested the Queen, but Jamie had long fled King's Landing. He was in the West preparing his assault on Riverrun.

[Pikachu101]

The king is who the people side with. Robb is KitN but he's still a pretender in the eyes of Stannis, Joffrey and Dany.

There's no such thing as "rightful king" the Targaryens no longer have a claim so Dany and Aegon have to get it back through force, the Starks can only go as far as the Riverlands, Stannis is the legal king but lacks support and Tommen's a bastard yet he's sitting on the IT

[lightbringer vs ice]

From the facts we know as readers, for me Stannis has the best claim, legally.