Official Court of Law: Stannis Baratheon

[Penguin king]

1. On Shadow babies I fail to see how they aren't just drones with 100% accuracy and 0% collateral damage.

Really not a fan of drones either, but this probably isn't the place to go into that

2. He goes over instructions for what the person who kills Stannis should do with his body; he wants the body protected because it would look bad for house Baratheon for his head to be displayed.

I found the quote as posted by Danm999 above, and it's followed by the question of what if stannis yields. And then Renly goes into explaining how his brother would never yield. I.E even though renly would spare his brother Stannis would chose to die. Knowing what I do of stannis, I'm inclined to believe him.

3. Your spaceship comparison could easily be misread then; you could try and come up with a better one if you didn't mean to say there was no war?

Umm I don't remember anything about spaceships. I did mention the moon door a couple of times, you know in the Eyrie. Maybe we had crossed wires

4. I would say just about none at this point are although Robb does at least have some basic ethics.

5. Assassins and magic are in my opinion just the drones fighters and bombers of their day. Nobody requires you to fight fair; and Renly didn't need any he had overwhelming numbers to throw at Stannis; so many that he disregards Tarly's advice. He doesn't give instructions to kill Stannis; but he does give instructions on what to do with his body and explicitly tells Cat she is being kept with him in order to report on the fate of those who oppose Renly to her son.

During the Parley Renly states outright that though there's no love lost between him and stannis he's got no desire to kill him. Then during the War council he declines to launch an early attack as he doesn't want to win by trechery. none of this matches the picture you paint of a Renly who wants to win at any cost.

Let me also put it this way; was it honorable for Harold to kill Tostig at the battle of Stanford Bridge? I just don't see how a death in battle from a lance or sword or bow is any less brutal or inhumane then death at the hands of an assassin.

I guess it ties in the the Stark Idea that the man who passes the sentence has to hold the blade. once you start killing with drones or assassins or shadow babies you're removed from the reality of the situation. Death just becomes an abstract thing. The men who sign orders to build death camps probably don't feel a thing either.

[DogLover]

1. Maleficium:-

Two Counts.

It is alleged that through the agency of the Medium, Melisandre of Asshai, the Defendant procured the deaths of:-

1.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

1.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

By means of the Diabolical Arts.

Guilty of charge 1.1: Stannis used an unfair and sinister method to kill his brother, Renly Baratheon, a method so unfair and sinister, Renly had no ability to defend himself.

Guilty of charge 1.2: See 1.1. Stannis is also guilty of cowardice and acting unhonorably since he declined Ser Cortnay Penrose's challenge to a single combat duel.

2. Treason

Two Counts.

2.1 It is alleged that the Defendant unlawfully rose in rebellion against His Grace, Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name, in violation of his oaths of fealty.

2.2 It is further alleged that the Defendant unlawfully waged war against Lord Roose Bolton, the lawfully appointed Warden of the North.

Not guilty of both charges 2.1 and 2.2. Stannis Baratheon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not Joffrey, the illegitimate offspring of Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Since Joffrey has no rightful claim, Roose Bolton's title of Warden of the North goes unrecognized.

3. Murder.

Six Counts:-

It is alleged that the Defendant intentionally, and unlawfully, killed the following people:-

3.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

3.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

3.3 Lord Alester Florent

3.4 Lord Guncer Sunglass

3.5 The Lord of Bones alias “Rattleshirt”

3.6 Three unnamed soldiers during the march to Winterfell.

The last four by means of burning alive.

Not guilty of charge 3.1. While Stannis Baratheon is guilty of maleficium, Renly Baratheon was in open rebellion against the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne, an act of treason punishable by death, but a death recognized by the courts of law of Westeros.

Not guilty of charge 3.2. See 3.1

Not guilty of charge 3.3: Alester of Florent committed treason, a crime guilty by death.

Not guilty of charge 3.4: Stannis Baratheon cannot be held accountable for Lord Sunglass' death.

Not guilty of charge 3.5: Stannis did not know the criminal being executed was Rattleshirt, and even if he did, Rattleshirt was a criminal sentenced to execution by the rightful ruler of the realm.

Not guilty of charge 3.6: These men were found guilty of cannibalism and sentenced to death for their crime.

4. Torture

One count. It is alleged that burning alive, without due process of law, as set out in charges 3.3 to 3.6 above, amounts to torture.

Not guilty: this course recognizes burning as an acceptable punishment, one I have sentenced twice.

5. Sacrilege

Two counts:-

5.1 The Defendant unlawfully destroyed the Sept on Dragonstone with its statues of the Seven.

5.2 The Defendant unlawfully desecrated Weirwood trees in the North.

Guilty of both counts.

Sentence: for counts 1.1 and 1.2, Stannis Baratheon must banish Melisandre from Westeros. For counts 5.1 and 5.2, Stannis must pay a monetary fine to rebuild the Dragonstone and regrow the Weirwood trees.

[danm_999]

I found the quote as posted by Danm999 above, and it's followed by the question of what if stannis yields. And then Renly goes into explaining how his brother would never yield. I.E even though renly would spare his brother Stannis would chose to die. Knowing what I do of stannis, I'm inclined to believe him.

Right but he doesn't actually answer the question of "what if Stannis yields", he simply digresses about how he thinks it's unlikely. Then he says;

“See to your battles, my lords . . . oh, and if Barristan Selmy is at my brother’s side, I want him [my italics] spared.”

He's telling them to kill Stannis, but it's not really something you can come out and say.

[BondJamesBond]

Great thread. I will just add that while Stannis may be guilty of sacrilege, the charges should be thrown out on the grounds that the law is an unconstitutional favoring of one religion over another. Plus, we all know R'hllor is the one true god.

[danm_999]

An etude of the Baratheon phenotype, which was still incredibly weak evidence.

How is that evidence weak in the context of the setting?

They find out that Baratheon-Lannister pairing always yield dark haired children. They find out that 3/3 of Robert's 'children' defy this rule, and that every other recorded instance of Robert's progeny obeys it (even when a blonde is thrown into the mix, like with Gendry's mum).

Beyond a DNA test, this is as good an understanding these Medieval men can come to. Which leads us to;

And the death of Jon Arryn, an old man that could have been easily died of old age,

So Stannis is working with Jon Arryn, probably the only man Robert will trust and listen to besides Ned, on the suspicion that the Lannisters have cuckolded the King. Jon Arryn dies suddenly, something that surprises even Robert (who has no inkling of foul play) and there's controversy over the nature of his care with Grand Maester Pycelle, an infamous Lannister toady, being put on the case. In addition, Tywin Lannister makes the unprecedented offer to take the Arryn heir to ward, which would give him control over the Warden of the East.

Combine this with the evidence Stannis and Jon have already collected. Imagine how this looks. It's definitely a reasonable belief, and nearly everything here turns out to be completely accurate (the exception being it was Littlefinger and Lysa who poisoned Jon initially; Pycelle merely continued it).

[Ramsay Gimp]

For the grand total of the charges, deprive him and his heirs (Selyse and Shireen) from his lands and titles. Bind him to a running horse or simply dismember him alive (flames are both too merciful and too thematically attuned to him) until he dies a terrible death as penitence. Extinguish his House and offer the lands to the Night's Watch as reparation and as part of an effort at redefining their duties and mission.

Man, you really lose your marbles whenever Stannis is concerned. Either that or you are a sadist and let yourself show it when Stannis is the topic

[Lady Meera Reed]

1. Maleficium:

1.1 - Not Guilty. First of all, I don't think he knew of it. Second, Renly unlawfully attempted to displace his older brother, who comes before him in Westeros' line of succession. He also knowingly rebelled & committed treason, & intended to kill Stannis.

1.2 - Not Guilty. Ser Cortnay denied Stannis access to his own family's seat. As for the method, it was a weapon of war -- & by using an assassin to kill this traitor/war leader, he prevented battle which could've resulted in the deaths of thousands.

2. Treason:

2.1 - Not Guilty. Stannis is the rightful King; he is fighting a just war against the people trying to pass a Lannister bastard as the Baratheon heir.

2.2 - Not Guilty. Roose Bolton was not a lawfully appointed Warden of the North.

3. Murder:

3.1 - Not Guilty.

3.2 to 3.4 - Not Guilty. Lawful executions of traitors.

3.5 - Not Guilty.

3.6 - Not Guilty. Lawful executions of criminals, who disobeyed their King's order to not eat the dead.

4. Torture:

Not Guilty. Burning is one of the standard forms of execution in Westeros (& this court, as many of you mentioned), & the people he executed were all guilty of crimes punishable by death.

5. Sacrilege:

5. Guilty on both counts.

Verdict:

I find the defendant, Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar & the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms & Protector of the Realm, not guilty of charges 1 to 4 but guilty of charge 5. For that I sentence him to pay a monetary fine to rebuild the Sept of Dragonstone, & to swear an oath before a heart tree to never desecrate Weirwoods again.

[W.Kane]

How was Stannis's belief that Joffrey was a bastard reasonable? He had no evidence beyond a comparaison between Cersei's kids and Robert's bastards (Which is very flimsy evidence).

Besides, I do not believe an oath of fealty has to be renewed every time a King dies and is replaced by his heir.

but you forget the fact that we the readers should judge these characters , it is a judgment from our point of view not joffrey's or any other character in Westeros.

we know Stannis is right , we know what the Lanisters have done and now we should judge.

[IRON BANK]

The alleged mentioned 1-4 crimes not gulty, no. 5 walk away

[W.Kane]

I find the defendant, Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar & the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms & Protector of the Realm, not guilty of charges 1 to 4 but guilty of charge 5. For that I sentence him to pay a monetary fine to rebuild the Sept of Dragonstone, & to swear an oath before a heart tree to never desecrate Weirwoods again.

Do we really need to make him swear an oath before a tree?!!

+ does the website goes offline for you , too? like a few hours ago?

[Lady Meera Reed]

Do we really need to make him swear an oath before a tree?!!

I know, he wouldn't like that one bit! :lol: But how else could he compensate the Northmen?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why Stannis bashing has to happen in every thread?

[Jaime's Wench]

Stannis' day of reckoning...

-rubs hands greedily-

1. Maleficium:-

Two Counts.

1.1 Lord Renly Baratheon - Guilty

1.2 Ser Courtney Penrose - Guilty

By means of the Diabolical Arts.

All evidence shows that Stannis Baratheon committed these diabolical acts to win an illegal war against his nephew, King Joffrey I.

2. Treason

Two Counts.

2.1 It is alleged that the Defendant unlawfully rose in rebellion against His Grace, Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name, in violation of his oaths of fealty. - Guilty

2.2 It is further alleged that the Defendant unlawfully waged war against Lord Roose Bolton, the lawfully appointed Warden of the North. - Guilty

The evidence shows that Stannis Baratheon fled the capital with the sole purpose of waging war against the lawful King of Westeros, having upon his person no true evidence of his claims that Joffrey I was illegitimate. He then proceeded to publicise libel against the lawful king, and rally an unlawful army of rebels against him.

His acts of rebellion against Lord Roose Bolton, who is the lawfully appointed Warden of the North, show a continuation of this rebellion, even after Stannis' defeat at the Blackwater. His defeat was surely a sign from the Seven that his war is unlawful and that Joffrey was the rightful king.

3. Murder.

Six Counts:-

It is alleged that the Defendant intentionally, and unlawfully, killed the following people:-

3.1 Lord Renly Baratheon - Guilty

3.2 Ser Courtney Penrose - Guilty

3.3 Lord Alester Florent - Guilty

3.4 Lord Guncer Sunglass - Guilty

3.5 The Lord of Bones alias “Rattleshirt” - Guilty

3.6 Three unnamed soldiers during the march to Winterfell - Guilty

The evidence shows that Stannis Baratheon killed the aforementioned men in order to win an illegal war against his nephew and legitimate King of Westeros, Joffrey I, and later against his nephew and legitimate king, Tommen I. None of the above stood a fair trial, not that the trial would be lawful, when the judge is a traitor to the realm.

4. Torture

One count. It is alleged that burning alive, without due process of law, as set out in charges 3.3 to 3.6 above, amounts to torture.

Guilty.

5. Sacrilege

Two counts:-

5.1 The Defendant unlawfully destroyed the Sept on Dragonstone with its statues of the Seven. - Guilty

5.2 The Defendant unlawfully desecrated Weirwood trees in the North. - Guilty

The defendant unlawfully brought in the false religion of R'hollar and sought to gravely offend the people of both Dragonstone and the North by desecrating holy relics of their legitimate faith.

Sentence: Death by burning (He can die, as his victims died).

[Thendel]

On the charges brought against King Stannis Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm, this juror finds:

1. Maleficium: Charges Dismissed. This juror does not find the magical arts in question to be unlawful.

2. Treason: Not Guilty. As rightful king by law, it is the defendant's legal prerogative to take armed actions against those that challenge his claim.

3. Murder: Charges Dismissed. As king of Westeros, it is the defendant's legal prerogative to carry out justice in the realm. This juror does not find any of the instances of capital punishment to be unlawfully founded.

4. Torture: Charges Dismissed. As long as this very court considers death by fire an appropriate punishment, this juror will not convict any other legal body for enacting it within the boundaries of the law.

5. On the counts of Sacrilege:

5.1: Guilty. As king of Westeros, it is the defendant's obligation to respect the religious sites of his people.

5.2: Guilty. See above.

Verdict: This juror finds the defendant guilty of two counts of Sacrilege. The defendant will be sentenced to a monetary fine of 300 golden dragons, to be provided for replacement of the relics desecrated.

[hollowcrown]

1.1 and 1.2 - not guilty, no evidence that he ordered the deaths.

2.1 and 2.2 - not guilty, Stannis is the rightful king therefore he is breaking no laws.

3 - all not guilty, a King has a ring to sentence people to death for their crimes eg. oathbreaking in the case of Mance Rayder (not Rattleshirt), treason (Renly, Courtney and Florent). Renly and Courtney were due to war and he'd given Renly a chance to surrender. If we charge him for this we can charge Ned for killing Night's Watch Oathbreakers too.

4 - charge dismissed, if this court can use burning as a method for punishment, so can Stannis.

5. Not guilty - if Stannis takes Rh'llor as the state religion he can defile other religions idols as long as it's allowed within his religion.

Verdict: Not guilty. Stannis can continue ruling as King.

[W.Kane]

I know, he wouldn't like that one bit! :lol: But how else could he compensate the Northmen?

yeah , he definitely wouldn't (LOL) . but either that or he has to give Ramsay , Roose and Theon to the heart tree, his choice!

[Fetch me a block]

The Charges against the Defendant, Lord Stannis Baratheon, styling himself King of Westeros, are as follows:-

1. Maleficium:-

Two Counts.

It is alleged that through the agency of the Medium, Melisandre of Asshai, the Defendant procured the deaths of:-

1.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

1.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

By means of the Diabolical Arts.

2. Treason

Two Counts.

2.1 It is alleged that the Defendant unlawfully rose in rebellion against His Grace, Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name, in violation of his oaths of fealty.

2.2 It is further alleged that the Defendant unlawfully waged war against Lord Roose Bolton, the lawfully appointed Warden of the North.

3. Murder.

Six Counts:-

It is alleged that the Defendant intentionally, and unlawfully, killed the following people:-

3.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

3.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

3.3 Lord Alester Florent

3.4 Lord Guncer Sunglass

3.5 The Lord of Bones alias “Rattleshirt”

3.6 Three unnamed soldiers during the march to Winterfell.

The last four by means of burning alive.

4. Torture

One count. It is alleged that burning alive, without due process of law, as set out in charges 3.3 to 3.6 above, amounts to torture.

5. Sacrilege

Two counts:-

5.1 The Defendant unlawfully destroyed the Sept on Dragonstone with its statues of the Seven.

5.2 The Defendant unlawfully desecrated Weirwood trees in the North.

1 + 2 Not guilty; Stannis Baratheon is the rightful King of Westeros, Renly Baratheon and Ser Cortnay Penrose were in open rebellion. Thus, to Stannis, their lives are forfeit.

3 - see 1 + 2. All of these men were traitors, technically, bar Rattleshirt, who was a raider. Not guilty

4- 'due process of law'? I don't remember Westeros having a magna carta. It is up to the King to do with criminals as he likes. Not guilty

5-

• 5.1 Dragonstone is his own seat, or was at the time, he can do with it as he wishes. Not guilty
  
• 5.2 Guilty. Stannis Baratheon, King or not, has no explicit powers to attack any Faith.
  

Verdict: Not guilty on first four charges. Guilty on last charge - one count of sacrilege. Monetary fine to replant the Weirwoods and a formal apology to the Lord or Lady who owned the land they were planted on.

[Fetch me a block]

Why Stannis bashing has to happen in every thread?

Dude, this court thread happens to every important character, pretty much. Even the Young Wolf.

[TomBadgerlock]

1.1 - Not guilty. Renly Baratheon was a traitor and usurper, wilfully and deliberately attempting to deny Stannis his right to the Iron Throne. Second, Stannis's partaking in the events of the death are suspect and not able to be sufficiently proved.

1.2 - Not guilty. As above, Traitor.

2.1 - Not guilty, as the True King, Stannis has the right to vie for his to right.

2.2 - Not guilty, Stannis, being the True King, does not recognise Roose Bolton as Warden of the North.

3.1-3.6 - Not guilty. Traitors being executed.

4 - Not guilty. The morality of the act is...questionable. But the legality is not.

5.1 & 5.2 - Not guilty. There is no freedom of religion, and as Lord of Dragonstone and the King, he had the right to proclaim the official religion of the realm, but were he to be caught individually persecuting those of different religions - which he has not done - a guilty verdict would likely ensue.

[GallowsKnight]

1. Maleficium:- Two Counts.

It is alleged that through the agency of the Medium, Melisandre of Asshai, the Defendant procured the deaths of:-

1.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

1.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

By means of the Diabolical Arts.

Not Guilty. No laws against magic in Westeros.

2. Treason - Two Counts.

2.1 It is alleged that the Defendant unlawfully rose in rebellion against His Grace, Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name, in violation of his oaths of fealty.

2.2 It is further alleged that the Defendant unlawfully waged war against Lord Roose Bolton, the lawfully appointed Warden of the North.

Not Guilty. Joffrey is an illegal King.

3. Murder Six Counts:-

It is alleged that the Defendant intentionally, and unlawfully, killed the following people:-

3.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

3.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

3.3 Lord Alester Florent

3.4 Lord Guncer Sunglass

3.5 The Lord of Bones alias “Rattleshirt”

3.6 Three unnamed soldiers during the march to Winterfell.

The last four by means of burning alive.

Not Guilty. First four are traitors. Lord of Bones is a non-citizen of Westeros with his own list of crimes. Discipline had to maintained on the march.

4. Torture

One count. It is alleged that burning alive, without due process of law, as set out in charges 3.3 to 3.6 above, amounts to torture.

Not Guilty. Westeros has no laws against torture. Especially conducted by nobles. Regardless it's an unnecessarily painful form of execution not torture.

5. Sacrilege

Two counts:-

5.1 The Defendant unlawfully destroyed the Sept on Dragonstone with its statues of the Seven.

5.2 The Defendant unlawfully desecrated Weirwood trees in the North.

Not Guilty. This is a court of law not religion. Those acts were within his rights as king.