King's Landing in terms of Political Parties

[Prescott]

Interesting post. I would argue that the targaryens are fascists as they have no ideals supporting lifting up the lower classes. They had power (dragons) so they conquered under the belief that they were superior.

They are popular with the lower classes, though.

Tyrion is a social liberal, fiscal conservative.

That's basically what the European Free Democrats/Liberals are.

[Drake Heath]

I doubt Aerys is anything like the communists, he was a king, that's bourgeois through and through.

[Horza]

I doubt Aerys is anything like the communists, he was a king, that's bourgeois through and through.

Um, no.

[Prescott]

Um, no.

With Horza on this one

[BondJamesBond]

That's basically what the European Free Democrats/Liberals are.

Oh, I was agreeing with your description of Tyrion. I still think the targs are fascist though. Most dictators take efforts to be popular with the lower classes though I'm second guessing my fascist analogy. Targs are to Westeros as ______s are to Europe. Fill in the blank.

[Lord Ben]

They're so unsimilar to any political parties that any comparison is just a way to hammer someone's beliefs into an attack. Pretty much every character has an autocratic view of government that overshadows anything else they might think.

[Horza]

Oh, I was agreeing with your description of Tyrion. I still think the targs are fascist though. Most dictators take efforts to be popular with the lower classes though I'm second guessing my fascist analogy. Targs are to Westeros as ______s are to Europe. Fill in the blank.

The Targs aren't fascist, they're plain old monarchists of varying degrees of Absolutism. The closest thing you'd get to them nowadays is UKIP or the few eccentric folk in France and Germany who want to bring back the Bourbons or the Hohenzollerns.

[Minsc]

The Targs aren't fascist, they're plain old monarchists of varying degrees of Absolutism. The closest thing you'd get to them nowadays is UKIP or the few eccentric folk in France and Germany who want to bring back the Bourbons or the Hohenzollerns.

They do have a weird fixation of keeping the blood pure, even if it is only for their own family.

[Horza]

They do have a weird fixation of keeping the blood pure, even if it is only for their own family.

Yeah, I think if you had an entire Valyrian aristocracy of whom the Targs were the leading family then there could be some real ubermensch nastiness, but Martin probably didn't really want to go down that route.

[Prescott]

The Targs aren't fascist, they're plain old monarchists of varying degrees of Absolutism. The closest thing you'd get to them nowadays is UKIP or the few eccentric folk in France and Germany who want to bring back the Bourbons or the Hohenzollerns.

They're the Bourbons. My comparison to European Communists was an attempt to fit them into contemporary paradigms. The connection to Communism is centralization. When Aerys executed the Starks, he became a bigger proponent of centralization than any other character. Most other leaders in the books respect the authority of the Lords Paramount and offer the subnational units a good amount of autonomy. Their view of the Seven Kingdoms is roughly similar to what we call "federalism" today, if we want contemporary rather than historical political labels. Aerys's execution of the Starks defies subnational sovereignty, taking a radical approach to political centralization. His fall from favor also fits into the pattern of European Communist parties if we hammer the square peg of medieval politics into the round hole of the 20th Century.

[Lion of Judah]

How come all of the worst people are representing the left and you only put Renly amongst them because he's gay.

[Horza]

They're the Bourbons. My comparison to European Communists was an attempt to fit them into contemporary paradigms. The connection to Communism is centralization. When Aerys executed the Starks, he became a bigger proponent of centralization than any other character. Most other leaders in the books respect the authority of the Lords Paramount and offer the subnational units a good amount of autonomy. Their view of the Seven Kingdoms is roughly similar to what we call "federalism" today, if we want contemporary rather than historical political labels. Aerys's execution of the Starks defies subnational sovereignty, taking a radical approach to political centralization. His fall from favor also fits into the pattern of European Communist parties if we hammer the square peg of medieval politics into the round hole of the 20th Century.

Which is just weird, because centralisation and the erosion of regional and aristocratic privilege has a long history and there's otherwise nothing remotely left about the Targaryens.

[Prescott]

Which is just weird, because centralisation and the erosion of regional and aristocratic privilege has a long history and there's otherwise nothing remotely left about the Targaryens.

Do you have better ideas for the left? I did the best I could considering the anachronistic elements of this exercise. The left doesn't really show up until industrialization but these books were written in the 1990s so we might be able to find something. Obviously King's Landing doesn't have a Gerhard Schroder but there could be something I'm missing?

[lady m]

Tyrion said something about Littlefinger rubbing two coins together and making a third, if I remember correctly.

I'd somewhat disagree with Tyrion's catagorization, but Clasical Liberals are known as libertarians here in the US. I actually think Renly represents this outlook fairly well. Socially progressive, same sex marriage, drug legalization, strict 1st & 2nd Amendment rights, etc., with a Laissez-faire style of economics.

As for what I quoted I'm not sure I'd call what Littlefinger did as classic Keynes. Keynes means building projects, New Deal style makework. Not exclusively, but that's how it's broadly and generally understood. And pushing money into the economy to stimulate, which can be makework or not. You're using the tax money to benefit society at large, which is a bulwark of leftist ideology. None of that happens, which I think becomes abundantly clear in Tyrion's Essos chapters with Illyrio. The roads there are still pristine even after Valeryia fell 500 years prior. None of that has happened in the Kingdoms.

Littlefinger engages in what we would call investment banking. Commodities trading to be exact. Buying grain, wool, storable food stuffs, timber, etc., during the times of easy harvest and he plans to resell them during winter when these commodities are scarce. He's also buying third party debt to hold and exact usury fees on, see Antler Men. From what we've seen none of this gets plowed back into the system for a 'greater good' which would be classic leftism, however. Which is why I would disagree with him as a Keynesian. Not sure what that does to your Littlefinger categorization, sorry.

Welcome to the boards, and thank you for an interesting & original topic. I <3 your icon, btw, love House of Cards, Frances Urquhart is awesome! Years since I've seen it.

They are popular with the lower classes, though.

So were many fascist, in the beginning. The National Socialists German Workers Party was started in 1918 by a locksmith as the Free Committee for a German Workers' Peace.

Edited, because I added quite a bit.

[Pod The Impaler]

Petry Baelish - Littlefinger would be best described as a hardline neoliberal or even libertarian. A venture capitalist in prvate life, but a trade-oriented technocrat in public office. Loves money and commerce, but doesn't indulge in any sort of social / religious conservatism or traditional thinking. He's not a pacifist but is in no way associated with a military mindset or hardcore nationalism. I think he compares best to the Free Democrats in Germany, or Silvio Berlusconi's party in Italy (in fact, he might even be Silvio Berlusconi).

Renly Baratheon - Renly is close to Littlefinger is this respect, but more moderate economcally. He scorns overt imposition morality but sees some need for basic law and order. He is liberal in his social values, but no stranger to using state power to further certain business interests. He would likely govern in a moderate, pragmatic, reactive style. He is a member of the elite, and lives the high life, but he makes populist gestures when it serves him politically. Popularity is very important to him. He basks in the public eye, but is most at home hob-nobbing with the social glitterati. Compares best with UK Labour under Tony Blair, or the Liberal Party of Canada as led by Paul Martin or Michael Ignatieff.

Ned Stark - Fairly traditional in outlook, but not known to try and impose hardline social values. Generally pro-commerce but with some ethical restraints. Favours fiscal restraint but not deregulation. Aristocratic heritage, with a somewhat sober and soldierly outlook. Christian Democrat (of Germany) or old-school Tory (UK / Canada long ago) is a good comparison, but with perhaps a dash of Green and nationalist idealism thrown in there (These ideals are more prominent & forceful in Ned's kids than himself).

Stannis Baratheon - He is not an economic liberal / de-regulationist, nor does he seek to be economically statist. However, he is a strong social & ethical conservative, with an emphasis on placing social responsibilities above individual rights. He is not ostentatious, but can be autocratic at times. He has no qualms about using state power to enforce a harsher mode of law and order. Militarily, he is hawkish, but not prone to empty bluster. Poltically, he might fit with one of the more strongly "Catholic" parties in Europe (such as the Christian Social Union in Bavaria), with a dash of Euro-skeptic thinking. Or perhaps some find his harshness of tone more equivalent of Putin in Russia.

Tyrion Lannister - Although he is wealthy and well-educated compared to most, Tyrion is someone who economically has concern for the middle and lower classes, and has sympathy for marginalized groups in society. He does not rejject capitalism, so he is not a true socialist, but does see some need to protect people from its excesses. Socially, he's on the liberal / permissive side, with a skeptical view of religion. Despite his deliberate outreach to the masses and concern for the greater good, he still gets commonly portrayed as an elitist technocrat. Tyrion is likely a Social Democrat.

Tywin / Cersei Lannister - It is hard to say what their philosophy is exactly. I would say in part it resembles the neo-Conservative style of someone like Thatcher or conservatism of DeGaulle. Unabashedly pro-commerce / wealthy-oriented economically policies, but also a sort of militarily hawkish, "law & order" conservatism that focuses on protection of elite privlege and strategic dominance for its own sake. However, the sheer level of belligerence and exclusionist thinking makes them seem more like the National Front (French variant) and related groups.

Joffrey "Baratheon" - Simpler just to look at North Korea, and whatever that is called.

Melisandre - All things eventually boil down to the eternal struggle between the holy and unholy. Economics - that is as nothing compared to the divine struggle ahead. Religious principles decide everything. Jihadist theocracy ? (I won't say "Islamist" because it's not like Islam.)

Daenerys Targaryen - Hard to say if she's a true blackshirt fascist or radical leftist in the Spartacist tradition. Wants to smash the evils of society, and bring revolution through fire and blood. :commie:

[Ordos]

Interesting thread. However I would broaden the range to other people in asoiaf outside King's Landing because It does make you wonder...

Ummm... could any of the Tyrells be compared to modern day politics? I guess they are in Renly's camp as they are his allies but still where do some of them stand individually? Loras, Mace, Olenna, Margaery...

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

I think Cersei is way off, unless you include the Tyrells as being foreigners. I don't see her as being ant-foreigner, after all, her BFF is from Myr. Her banishing of the Bank of Braavos seems more leftist, anti-banking extremist than anti-foreigner rightist extremist to me.

[Blede]

Petry Baelish - Littlefinger would be best described as a hardline neoliberal or even libertarian. A venture capitalist in prvate life, but a trade-oriented technocrat in public office. Loves money and commerce, but doesn't indulge in any sort of social / religious conservatism or traditional thinking. He's not a pacifist but is in no way associated with a military mindset or hardcore nationalism. I think he compares best to the Free Democrats in Germany, or Silvio Berlusconi's party in Italy (in fact, he might even be Silvio Berlusconi).

This. Berlusconi is the closest political equivalent of Baelish. He is not capitalist/free market proponent, since he uses his political position to shamelessly privilege his companies (and those of his friends/political backers) through ad-hoc legislation (the left is actually more free-market than he is regarding companies he is not related to). He also believes himself above the law, engages in corruption, prostitution and create ad-hoc laws to protect himself from the consequences: as of now, almost all his trials had him declared guilty, but they all have ended with prescription (greatly shortened by his legislations). Fini, his former ally, once said he mistakes political consensus with immunity from any authority or control, he "mistakes leadership for absolute monarchy".

Someone in Italy defined Berlusconi's ideology as "anarcoid entrepeneurism", meaning "doing whatever you can to advance your company and make even more money through your position, and do what the hell you want on other matters, respect for the law is for pussies". I felt ill when I saw Baelish defined as "socialist", being socialist myself...

Regarding Aerys, as others have said, you have picked the wrong end of the political spectrum: he is fascist (or nazist), not communist (and by communist you meant stalinist, I hope).

[valtolin]

Do you have better ideas for the left? I did the best I could considering the anachronistic elements of this exercise. The left doesn't really show up until industrialization but these books were written in the 1990s so we might be able to find something. Obviously King's Landing doesn't have a Gerhard Schroder but there could be something I'm missing?

Well, there is a guy who is fighting for the smallfolk against the competing lords, in the same way in which a communist internationalist (or, anyway, a radical leftist) would defend the proletariat against competing national burgeoisies. His name is Beric Dondarrion.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Well, there is a guy who is fighting for the smallfolk against the competing lords, in the same way in which a communist internationalist (or, anyway, a radical leftist) would defend the proletariat against competing national burgeoisies. His name is Beric Dondarrion.

Not bad, especially since they confiscate private property to pay for their struggle.