Why is everyone so hard on Robb Stark?

[Lady Howell]

One the decision I'm hard on Robb for is marrying Jeyne. Everything else he was terrific, but that...I'm sorry but he seriously shouldn't have done that.
Age or not, he...I just can't really excuse him for it.
It was a really, really big mistake in my opinion and did no one any good, even Jeyne, in the end.

[Drogon'sWrath]

I think he should have allied himself with Stannis, as opposed to seceding from the realm. That is what Ned would have wanted. Still, I don't fault him for that. He had no way of knowing that was the case and didn't know about the twincest. Then there's the whole Theon thing. It was a bad decision because you just don't send a hostage to treat with the person he was taken from in the first place. Granted, he had no way to know what would happen and really had no reason to distrust Theon. The fact he was a hostage made it a questionable decision at best. However, his biggest mistake was the marriage. I don't care if he was just a kid, that's something I just can't excuse. He knew he swore an oath to the Freys, he knew what kind of reaction he would likely get (the Freys deserting on the spot), and he did it anyway. It's one of the most irresponsible acts in the entire series. I don't dislike Robb, but he is my least favorite of the Stark children.

[Blackfish Tully]

In the scheme of things, he only made two critical mistakes--trusting Theon and marrying Jeyne Westerling. And if he had only made one of those mistakes, and not both, he likely would have been able to recover. If he had not lost the Freys, Bolton would probably not have felt comfortable to turn on him...so, Winterfell and the North would have been retaken. If Theon had not taken Winterfell, then the Freys and Boltons would never have been brazen enough to organize such a massacre.

Bolton would have still turned on him , he was betraying Robb pretty much from the beginning and Walter Frey would have betrayed him the first chance he got whether or not Robb married Jeyne. Once Tywin destroyed Stannis it was only a matter of time before Bolton and Frey would have betrayed Robb no matter what else happened, maybe it would not have been as dramatic as the Red Wedding but nothing would have stopped them from joining the Tyrell/Lannister alliance.

[modbelle]

He didn't save his sisters and lost any chance of ever doing so the moment he married Jeyne Westerling. He also failed to act quickly when he found out that Theon held his brothers captive, because he didn't think Theon would hurt them and therefore carried on with his campaign. However, his age is why I can still like him and his death was so brutal. Robb was pretty much just a good war general. IMO I don't think Eddard would be proud because what his father would have wanted most was his children/siblings safe not to be King of Anything. That said, I am sure Eddard the ghost was devastated that his son would be following him into the grave so soon, and cursing Tywin Lannister and the Freys for having no honor.

[The Roaring Bear]

I love the Starks. Robb is my least favorite.

He was a bad king, but also a bad brother.

He sold one sister to a Frey (can you imagine Arya living at the Twins?). Then when he finds out Sansa's been married to Tyrion...

Catelyns reaction: This is the worst thing!

Robb's reaction: You were totes right mom. I should have married her to someone else for a valuable alliance.

Hello? Your sister is probably getting raped and you're thinking about how you could have used her better politically? Robb is the worst Stark.

So you dislike Robb because he understood the role of women in the society was to be used as alliance builders then call him a bad king for understanding that? WTF?

[Dead Wolf]

I love the Starks. Robb is my least favorite.

He was a bad king, but also a bad brother.

He sold one sister to a Frey (can you imagine Arya living at the Twins?). Then when he finds out Sansa's been married to Tyrion...

Catelyns reaction: This is the worst thing!

Robb's reaction: You were totes right mom. I should have married her to someone else for a valuable alliance.

Hello? Your sister is probably getting raped and you're thinking about how you could have used her better politically? Robb is the worst Stark.

The Arya betrothal was necessary if Robb wanted to win Walder's alleigence, you may recall, he was trying to rescue Ned. Robb's anger was very clear in the chapter where he hears about the wedding what he said to Cat was "If I could take his ugly head off, then Sansa would be a widow..." he is very concerned about his sister and at this point is coming to grips with the possibility that Arya may also be dead, as well as Bran and Rickon. Jon was going to let the Weeper through the Wall even after he'd scooped the eyes out of three brave men and decapitated them, along with countless others throughout the years.

[XAssGodX]

Well i like Robb, he's the Stark i like the least though ( Catelyn not included ). Trusting Theon was normal, Theon was a good person and... Well who wouldn't trust his best friend ? BUT, the fact that he made lots of Freys die during the war for after that dropping his engagements toward Walder Frey was just really stupid, only an asshole would do that. I understand why Walder Frey wanted him dead. This isn't a reason for killing innocents at a wedding though. Robb's problem is that even for his age he made bad decisions. I'll list the bad decisions he made that are currently in my mind.

1. Betraying Walder Frey.

2. Cutting Lord Karstark's head. ( He should've kept him captive or something so he didn't lose the Karstarks )

3. Became a traitor. ( He should have allied himself to Stannis/gave him his alliegence, even Robb knew Stannis is the rightful king )

Theres more but i have to go.

Also, even Sansa made better decisions than him.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Well i like Robb, he's the Stark i like the least though ( Catelyn not included ). Trusting Theon was normal, Theon was a good person and... Well who wouldn't trust his best friend ? BUT, the fact that he made lots of Freys die during the war for after that dropping his engagements toward Walder Frey was just really stupid, only an asshole would do that. I understand why Walder Frey wanted him dead. This isn't a reason for killing innocents at a wedding though. Robb's problem is that even for his age he made bad decisions. I'll list the bad decisions he made that are currently in my mind.

1. Betraying Walder Frey.

2. Cutting Lord Karstark's head. ( He should've kept him captive or something so he didn't lose the Karstarks )

3. Became a traitor. ( He should have allied himself to Stannis/gave him his alliegence, even Robb knew Stannis is the rightful king )

Theres more but i have to go.

Also, even Sansa made better decisions than him.

I'll give you 2 of 3 there, although I'm not sure he knew Stannis was rightful king at the time he was declared KitN. Karstark need to go.

1. He didn't just kill the prisoners, he killed guards Robb had posted.

2. He told his men to leave beforehand: Robb had already lost the Karstarks.

3. It sets a precedent that Robb takes punishment seriously. His bannermen had increased respect for him, particularly the GreatJon.

4. The punishment needs to fit the crime.

[Dead Wolf]

Well i like Robb, he's the Stark i like the least though ( Catelyn not included ). Trusting Theon was normal, Theon was a good person and... Well who wouldn't trust his best friend ? BUT, the fact that he made lots of Freys die during the war for after that dropping his engagements toward Walder Frey was just really stupid, only an asshole would do that. I understand why Walder Frey wanted him dead. This isn't a reason for killing innocents at a wedding though. Robb's problem is that even for his age he made bad decisions. I'll list the bad decisions he made that are currently in my mind.

1. Betraying Walder Frey.

2. Cutting Lord Karstark's head. ( He should've kept him captive or something so he didn't lose the Karstarks )

3. Became a traitor. ( He should have allied himself to Stannis/gave him his alliegence, even Robb knew Stannis is the rightful king )

Theres more but i have to go.

Also, even Sansa made better decisions than him.

He was doing everything in his power to placate Walder Frey, and the only Frey I can remember that died in the fighting was Ser Stevron. Karstark's men were already gone and he'd killed two innocent boys, he'd lost the Karstarks no matter what. He couldn't ally with Stannis, if he tried to, his banerman, who had just said they wanted him as their king, would have abandoned him.

[para]

He didn't save his sisters and lost any chance of ever doing so the moment he married Jeyne Westerling.

He probably lost any chance of ever saving them when he refused to trade Jaime for them. But he lived to regret letting them rot, when he realized that couldn't turn them into childbrides for the Freys and Tyrells. Meanwhile he gambled away his kingdom, his bannermen, his family, his honor (and his life) so he could marry whoever he wanted.

Adding to this that he left Bran and Rickon without any sort of decent protection and didn't come to their aid and he might be the worst brother in the entire series.

Ramsay killed one brother. Robb's actions would have killed four siblings if they didn't had plot armor. Viserys sold one sister to be married, raped and abused in exchange an army of blood-thirsty men on horses. Robb sold two sisters to be abused, probably raped and killed for one man with no horse.

So why do people actually think he is a good guy? Because he is an antagonist to the bad guys? Because he yaps on about honor, duty and family while being neither honorable, dutiful nor gives a flying fig about losing the last chance at getting his sisters back when he marries Jeyne?

Of course, Robb is not evil. But to pretend that he was too good for this world and that he only made a tiny, little mistake, ignores that this mistake is symptomatic of his flaws. For Robb, it was all about him - his strategy, his decisions what was important and what wasn't, his desires, his victory, his ideas of duty and honor. He forgot in a way that other people weren't merely an extension of his will and that hubris killed him. That's what makes the RW work - that Robb got there because his decisions and convictions led him there.

[aceluby]

He probably lost any chance of ever saving them when he refused to trade Jaime for them. But he lived to regret letting them rot, when he realized that couldn't turn them into childbrides for the Freys and Tyrells. Meanwhile he gambled away his kingdom, his bannermen, his family, his honor (and his life) so he could marry whoever he wanted.

Adding to this that he let Bran and Rickon without any sort of decent protection and didn't come to their aid and he might be the worst brother in the entire series.

Ramsay killed one brother. Robb's actions would have killed four siblings if they didn't plot armor. Viserys sold kne sister to be married, raped and abused in exchange an army of blood-thirsty infantry. Robb sold two sisters to be abused, probably raped and killed for one guy with no horse.

So why do people actually think he is a good guy? Because he is an antagonist to the bad guys? Because he yaps on about honor, duty and family while being neither honorable, dutiful nor gives a flying fig about losing the last chance at getting his sisters back when he marries Jeyne?

Of course, Robb is not evil. But to pretend that he was too good for this world and that he only made a tiny little mistake, ignores that it is symptomatic of his flaws. For Robb, it was all about him - his strategy, his decisions what was important and what wasn't, his desires, his victory, his ideas of duty and honor. He forgot in a way that other people weren't merely an extension of his will and that hubris killed him. That's what makes the RW work - that Robb got there because his decisions and convictions led him there.

Robb had no choice about a lot of this. Name a single military leader that would trade the best enemy POW for two civilians. To say that's Robb's fault is really unfair because nobody would do that. Leaving the North unprotected wasn't a blunder either, what do you think happened for RR? How many are they supposed to leave while they march south to fight a war with a painfully small force? Sorry, but try as you might Robb's actions didn't put his siblings in danger, most of it was completely out of his control.

Marrying Jeyne was a huge blunder, but he did it because he felt honor bound to do so. His problem wasn't that he was selfish, but that he was constantly thinking of his people over himself and his immediate family. He went south to save his father. He kept fighting because his bannermen wanted to rule themselves. He refused to trade Jaime because it hurt his war efforts. He agreed to marry a Frey for his army. He married Jeyne to protect her honor. He even sent Theon away for his war efforts. And for a guy who is supposedly selfish and wants to make 'his' decisions, he sure does get a lot of input from his commanders and mother.

[Mikkel]

Refusing to trade Jaime was not a blunder. It was a bit cold-hearted, perhaps, but it's hardly a decision you can fault him for. While I seriously doubt I'd be able to make the same calculated decision if my siblings were in danger, I'm not a King (thankfully!). He made mistakes, but this wasn't one of them, in my opinion. Holding Jaime captive opens the door for all sorts of possibilities, up to and including (serious) peace talks. The moment he's free, Tywin (and Cersei) have much more room to play in.

[Dead Wolf]

He probably lost any chance of ever saving them when he refused to trade Jaime for them. But he lived to regret letting them rot, when he realized that couldn't turn them into childbrides for the Freys and Tyrells. Meanwhile he gambled away his kingdom, his bannermen, his family, his honor (and his life) so he could marry whoever he wanted.

Adding to this that he left Bran and Rickon without any sort of decent protection and didn't come to their aid and he might be the worst brother in the entire series.

Ramsay killed one brother. Robb's actions would have killed four siblings if they didn't had plot armor. Viserys sold one sister to be married, raped and abused in exchange an army of blood-thirsty men on horses. Robb sold two sisters to be abused, probably raped and killed for one man with no horse.

So why do people actually think he is a good guy? Because he is an antagonist to the bad guys? Because he yaps on about honor, duty and family while being neither honorable, dutiful nor gives a flying fig about losing the last chance at getting his sisters back when he marries Jeyne?

Of course, Robb is not evil. But to pretend that he was too good for this world and that he only made a tiny, little mistake, ignores that this mistake is symptomatic of his flaws. For Robb, it was all about him - his strategy, his decisions what was important and what wasn't, his desires, his victory, his ideas of duty and honor. He forgot in a way that other people weren't merely an extension of his will and that hubris killed him. That's what makes the RW work - that Robb got there because his decisions and convictions led him there.

No. Ser Rodrik raised a host of several thousand men to deal with the ironborn. To say Bran and Rickon weren't protected is ridiculous. When did Robb sell his sisters? He wasn't going to let a dangerous enemy just walk free, and if you care to recall, Ned, Sansa and Arya went south of their own free will, how can you blame Robb for that? A bad brother? He was the only person in Winterfell who gave a fuck about Rickon, he showed that he loved Jon in his will by giving him Winterfell, he did all he could to be a good brother to Bran. He showed clear regret about not exchanging Sansa and Arya. Jeyne comforted him when he was upset over the loss of Bran and Rickon. Explain how it was wrong for him to kill Karstark, when the man had just murdered two boys. Gee, I wonder why Robb might feel strongly about that. Robb realized his mistake with the Freys, and did all he could to make up for it.

[para]

Name a single military leader that would trade the best enemy POW for two civilians.

They weren't civilians, they were his heirs, one unlucky battle away from inheriting the entire North. And Jaime wasn't the best enemy POW either - Joffrey would have been, followed by Tywin, Tommen, Myrcella, and Stannis.

And seriously, would have the RW taken place if Tywin hadn't had control over Sansa, Robb's only legitimate heir at that point? Imagine Sansa safe and sound out of Lannister control, enabling the North to rally around her in the case of Robb's death - would the risk of the RW worth it?

The answer to that question is probably still 'yes'. But it was Sansa's presence in KL that made the RW truly rewarding to the Lannisters, no ''probably' about it.

Family is capital in ASOIAF. It's how you make alliances and friends. It buys you armies and enough food supplies to feed entire populations. Robb gambled away that capital on the idea that Jaime would be worth more than the food and armies of the Tyrells, Arryns or Hightowers. (By the time Cat freed Jaime this worth still hadn't materialized. Instead he had cost him the Karstarks.) Robb should have realized quickly after Ned's death that Tywin would neither give him an army nor a capitulation in exchange for his son. That made Jaime, that prized enemy POW, worth far less than Sansa and Arya who could.

[shearstone]

They weren't civilians, they were his heirs, one unlucky battle away from inheriting the entire North. And Jaime wasn't the best enemy POW either - Joffrey would have been, followed by Tywin, Tommen, Myrcella, and Stannis.

And seriously, would have the RW taken place if Tywin hadn't had control over Sansa, Robb's only legitimate heir at that point? Imagine Sansa safe and sound out of Lannister control, enabling the North to rally around her in the case of Robb's death - would the risk of the RW worth it?

The answer to that question is probably still 'yes'. But it was Sansa's presence in KL that made the RW truly rewarding to the Lannisters, no ''probably' about it.

Family is capital in ASOIAF. It's how you make alliances and friends. It buys you armies and enough food supplies to feed entire populations. Robb gambled away that capital on the idea that Jaime would be worth more than the food and armies of the Tyrells, Arryns or Hightowers. (By the time Cat freed Jaime this worth still hadn't materialized. Instead he had cost him the Karstarks.) Robb should have realized quickly after Ned's death that Tywin would neither give him an army nor a capitulation in exchange for his son. That made Jaime, that prized enemy POW, worth far less than Sansa and Arya who could.

Arya was betrothed to a Frey before he had Jaime, so her usefulness to Robb was already expended also are you forgetting that the Lannisters never would have agreed to a trade because they couldn't (they don't have Arya)

Your overstating Sansa's usefulness at the time as well. Keeping her was good for the Lannister's perspective as it was leverage and when they got lucky thanks to Theon she was the heir but if they had traded her for Jaime there wasn't many people she could be betrothed too to gain political clout for Robb. The Arryn's where staying out the war because of LF and without him they likely would've joined Robb without a need for a betrothal. The Tyrell's did want a claim to the North with Sansa & Willis but It's doubtful that they'd sign up to this instead of Maergary being Queen to a larger kingdom. The same with the Hightowers, what would they have to gain? Would Robb promise them Highgarden? Possibly but If they wanted it so badly why haven't they tried taking it during RR or The WO5K? We hear they're as rich as the Lannister's and have a good claim to Highgarden so If they were that bothered to betray the Tyrell's for Robb they likely would have already.

Keeping Jaime gave Robb leverage maybe not as much as he could have done with but keeping him at the very least kept him from the field where he could have been a thorn in Robb's side and likely kept Sansa alive (she dies Jaime dies).

[EstEst]

Refusing to trade Jaime was not a blunder. It was a bit cold-hearted, perhaps, but it's hardly a decision you can fault him for.

:agree: That was a Kingly decision. He decided between family and duty, and chose duty. Very mature, very Kingly.

Robb's decision to chop off a Karstark's head was, too, not a blunder. Again, he decided between duty and friends/allies, and chose duty. A difficult decision but very Kingly.

His plans to get (military or political) profit from his sisters' marriages were (a) quite normal for that society, and (b )very mature too in the sense of a leader (to his family, and to his people). We don't know how would this story end, but I'm sure Robb would see to that that his sisters are treated respectfully in their new houses. Okay, check out another "blunder" accusation.

The only thing I cannot forgive Robb for is his marriage. This was a catastrophe that ended not only his life, but the life of his people as well. People he was supposed to lead and protect. That time he decided between his honor and duty, and chose his honor. Selfish thing, immature, and not Kingly at all, and cost a hell of a lot.

[Dildo_Baggins]

Robb made one catastrophic blunder after another. He broke his betrothal to a Frey girl, alienating a powerful ally. He released his hostage, Theon Greyjoy, trusting that he could negotiate with Lord Greyjoy and ended up losing Winterfell and most of the North. Then he pushes further at the rest of his bannermen by beheading Karstark. The other Northern houses have the bulk of their fighters with Robb, but they are being attacked behind the lines from the Ironborn and a lot of them figured this war was a lost cause. Finally, he trusted Walder Frey enough to bring everyone of importance to a wedding, in spite of the fact that he'd been warned over and over again how dangerous Walder Frey is, especially when he's been insulted. Hence he didnt deserve to win the game of thrones

[Barty]

Well i like Robb, he's the Stark i like the least though ( Catelyn not included ). Trusting Theon was normal, Theon was a good person and... Well who wouldn't trust his best friend ? BUT, the fact that he made lots of Freys die during the war for after that dropping his engagements toward Walder Frey was just really stupid, only an asshole would do that. I understand why Walder Frey wanted him dead. This isn't a reason for killing innocents at a wedding though. Robb's problem is that even for his age he made bad decisions. I'll list the bad decisions he made that are currently in my mind.

1. Betraying Walder Frey.

2. Cutting Lord Karstark's head. ( He should've kept him captive or something so he didn't lose the Karstarks )

3. Became a traitor. ( He should have allied himself to Stannis/gave him his alliegence, even Robb knew Stannis is the rightful king )

Theres more but i have to go.

Also, even Sansa made better decisions than him.

2. He had no choice - the Karstarks had already abandoned him(they had left even before Rickard was caught). Lord Rickard was a traitor and a murderer - he deserved death.

3. I absolutely hate it when people blame Robb for Stannis' stupidity. Stannis had not even declared his intention to take the throne as of yet - he was still cowering on dragonstone - and he had done nothing to help Ned or the Starks(even after Ned was captured). How is Robb supposed to know whether Stannis will rise against his nephew? Maybe if Stannis had declared himself King and had come to Robb's aid(or the riverlands for that matter - Dragonstone is pretty close to Maidenpool and Saltpans) with his army, things would have been different.