DExit Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Ok, what you say makes sense. Even if the GC doesn't know, there is too much reference to the Blackfyre's for it not to mean anything. The GC was founded because they were exiled by the Targs though...why would they be so enthusiastic to fight for one? Only to go home??A dragon is a dragon and the color matters not, this or something like it was mentioned when the talk came about why the GC would fight their arch enemies. The GC will fight for targ and Blackfyre, hell if it was Stannis at their doorstep, they would've accepted as well. Although old, the GC consists still mainly of Westerosi exiles and other losers, those being the sons of the fathers who fled with Bittersteel- Connington chapter mentions someone boasting of four generations in the GC- and everyone who lost a war, survived and decided the wall was too cold.They yearn for home like nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkie Baelish Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 This may seem like nothing, but I've always found it odd that Varys never once called Aegon "Aegon Targaryen" in the epilogue. Simply Aegon. He has no reason to lie to a dying man, so why not just call him "Aegon Targaryen"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 A dragon is a dragon and the color matters not, this or something like it was mentioned when the talk came about why the GC would fight their arch enemies. The GC will fight for targ and Blackfyre, hell if it was Stannis at their doorstep, they would've accepted as well. Although old, the GC consists still mainly of Westerosi exiles and other losers, those being the sons of the fathers who fled with Bittersteel- Connington chapter mentions someone boasting of four generations in the GC- and everyone who lost a war, survived and decided the wall was too cold.They yearn for home like nothing else!Oh shit I didn't even think about the GC being night's watch deserters, so does that mean they are up for being beheaded right when they touch ground on westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 There's no NW deserters in the golden company, but becoming a member of the NW is a common punishment for traitors, it avoid death penalty and ensures relatives of executed traitors won't try to avenge their fallen brethen (since there is no execution).So exile is another alternative to the wall or the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 JonSnow Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 A dragon is a dragon and the color matters not, this or something like it was mentioned when the talk came about why the GC would fight their arch enemies. The GC will fight for targ and Blackfyre, hell if it was Stannis at their doorstep, they would've accepted as well. Although old, the GC consists still mainly of Westerosi exiles and other losers, those being the sons of the fathers who fled with Bittersteel- Connington chapter mentions someone boasting of four generations in the GC- and everyone who lost a war, survived and decided the wall was too cold.They yearn for home like nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoresbane Umber Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Why is he fake? It just doesn't add up.Illaryio calls Viserys "Your Grace" and offers to let him stay in Pentos until the Darthaki are ready to sail to Westeros. Meanwhile Young Griff is getting ready to join up with Viserys and his army of Darthaki screamers. Viserys stupidly gets himself killed, if he'd listened to Illaryio he'd be in Pentos still waiting for his Darthaki army.Dothraki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<3 JonSnow Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I understand that they yearn for home....some anyway. If some are 4th generation, they don't even know the Westeros as home. However, I can't break the connection in my head between Varys, Illyrio, the GC, and the Blackfyres. So, let me ask you ask you this...if Aegon is not a Blackfyre, what is the significance of telling about the Blackfyre rebellion? Where do they fit in? GRRM doesn't write back story that serves no purpose. And sorry, I meant to respond to that quote I posted by itself... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaramyrSixchins Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Finally you make some sense brother! lolI"m all for consistency as well, this meaning here, that meaning there. I just don't buy it.Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setmyheartafire Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think Aegon is fake not because of all the very plausible Blackfyre links already mentioned but because he's NOT the great king of endless humility that Varys and JonCon claim him to be. He's spoiled and immature. Which makes me doubt he is of an age with Dany or Jon Snow. Tyrion thinks he's in his young teens and I agree. There is no way he's older than 16. Throwing the cyvasse pieces showed his true age and his true colors. And that could be why he is the mummer's dragon. If he acts like that in Westeros people ("heroes") would definitely love nothing more than to fight him.If he is real, then I am disappointed in the plot development for this angle. The reveal could and should have been much better and more dramatic. Tyrion stumbling around across the sea and being thrust into it by Illyrio is kind of a terrible introduction to The Lost Heir to the Throne, IMHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 My personnel belief is that Aegon is still the mummers Dragon. But if he is the real deal, Daenerys, Aegon & Jon Snow (if R+L=J is true)..... the three headed Dragon. Could be the way its going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkStar24 Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think Aegon is fake not because of all the very plausible Blackfyre links already mentioned but because he's NOT the great king of endless humility that Varys and JonCon claim him to be.He's spoiled and immature. Which makes me doubt he is of an age with Dany or Jon Snow. Tyrion thinks he's in his young teens and I agree. There is no way he's older than 16.Throwing the cyvasse pieces showed his true age and his true colors. And that could be why he is the mummer's dragon. If he acts like that in Westeros people ("heroes") would definitely love nothing more than to fight him.Couldn't disagree more. You pick out one scene in which he gets frustrated and call him immature? Hardly. I think him taking Storms End, as well as everything Varys said about him to Kevan (Why lie to a dead man?) shows that he is going to rule sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setmyheartafire Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Don't forget that Aegon has Connington and the GC there to, you know, "help" take Storm's End.It's not just that scene, he's immature and arrogant throughout. But yes I do stand behind that one scene being enough to show him for the child he is, sorry. Remember, Jon Snow had snit fits too. A few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Don't forget that Aegon has Connington and the GC there to, you know, "help" take Storm's End.It's not just that scene, he's immature and arrogant throughout.But yes I do stand behind that one scene being enough to show him for the child he is, sorry. Remember, Jon Snow had snit fits too. A few years ago.he is definitely not as tough in his character as Dany, or as Egg from the Dunk & Egg stories. Egg is young in those, like 10 years old right? And is is very mature and shows all the signs of being a trueborn dragon that i just don't get from Young Griff. He also doesn't fit into the characteristics of the mad dragons either, Aerion and Aerys. I am still not convinced that Aegon is a blackfyre either. Varys and Iilyrio could be Blackfyre supporters and Varys could be one, but IMO Young Griff is not related to the Targ's at all. He was just switched at birth, he was someones kid, and was raised to believe he was in fact the lost heir, but like I have said before, you are who you were raised by. Tell a kid who they are when raising them and they will believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DExit Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Oh shit I didn't even think about the GC being night's watch deserters, so does that mean they are up for being beheaded right when they touch ground on westeros?Oh, i didn't mean to imply that, I meant it more like Tyrion mentioning to tywin that it's too blody cold there. When you lose a war you can chose to surrender and demand to be given the right to take the black, or you can turn your tail and run to essos and join for example the GC. However, it wouldn't surprise me if there was one or two common men who fled the watch, could go to essos end ended up in the GC.What bothers me is the following: Viserys tried to win over the GC to his cause, but they didn't join him. It thus seems I was wrong when I said they would fight for every dragon. Viserys his personality and youth should be taken into consideration off course, but still, they seem less loyal then normal exiles. the plan was for Vys to join them with thousends of dothraki at his back, a good plan, but how loyal are you if you sit at the same table and laugh at your boy-king?GRRM used confusion, it's super effective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Oh, i didn't mean to imply that, I meant it more like Tyrion mentioning to tywin that it's too blody cold there. When you lose a war you can chose to surrender and demand to be given the right to take the black, or you can turn your tail and run to essos and join for example the GC. However, it wouldn't surprise me if there was one or two common men who fled the watch, could go to essos end ended up in the GC.What bothers me is the following: Viserys tried to win over the GC to his cause, but they didn't join him. It thus seems I was wrong when I said they would fight for every dragon. Viserys his personality and youth should be taken into consideration off course, but still, they seem less loyal then normal exiles. the plan was for Vys to join them with thousends of dothraki at his back, a good plan, but how loyal are you if you sit at the same table and laugh at your boy-king?GRRM used confusion, it's super effective...Yeah but can you imagine a conversation with Viserys back then? I seriously doubt he was very convincing. I mean he was a moron who had no real battle experience and wasn't he basically broke already? He had nothing to offer the GC in ways of assurances and he was a drunk winy little baby. I doubt the GC would take him seriously at all. Look at how much Tyrion had to go through to join the Second Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DExit Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Yeah but can you imagine a conversation with Viserys back then? I seriously doubt he was very convincing. I mean he was a moron who had no real battle experience and wasn't he basically broke already? He had nothing to offer the GC in ways of assurances and he was a drunk winy little baby. I doubt the GC would take him seriously at all. Look at how much Tyrion had to go through to join the Second Sons.Indeed, they wanted to help him once he had his own troops, but in that case he is helping them as well by offering them a chance to go home. Would the only reasons they dismissed him be the political situation- Robert stil firmly on the IT- and his behaviour? And then go with Aegon when it's way more easy to do and the king is a very good boy...Now think that Dany and Aegon do both not exist, the realm is in grave trouble and the GC looks at the situation as it is, I think they would've set sail on their own, no pretender, fight a war in the stromlands, and then quickly declare loyalty to who holds the upper hand in the war of the five kings.They just want to go home and do not give a fig about dragons in my opinion, so far as they now, the line of Blackfyre died, so they do not have to fullfill the oath of Bittersteel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Indeed, they wanted to help him once he had his own troops, but in that case he is helping them as well by offering them a chance to go home. Would the only reasons they dismissed him be the political situation- Robert stil firmly on the IT- and his behaviour? And then go with Aegon when it's way more easy to do and the king is a very good boy...Now think that Dany and Aegon do both not exist, the realm is in grave trouble and the GC looks at the situation as it is, I think they would've set sail on their own, no pretender, fight a war in the stromlands, and then quickly declare loyalty to who holds the upper hand in the war of the five kings.They just want to go home and do not give a fig about dragons in my opinion, so far as they now, the line of Blackfyre died, so they do not have to fullfill the oath of Bittersteel.yeah but the oath wasn't about revenging the surviving blackfyres was it? it was just about retaking Westeros right with his golden skull or whatever. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveatimperator Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I concur with the theory <3 Jon Snow proposed earlier.If Aegon is real, it leaves two critical things unexplained; the involvement of Illyrio, and the involvement of the Golden Company.If Aegon is nobody in particular, or the real thing, why would the Golden Company break their contract and ruin their perfect reputation to fight a new war? But if he's a Blackfyre, their actions make more sense. Also, I recall that there is a section in the first Jon Connington chapter about high-ranking members of the Company discussing a secret agreement or pact of some sort. My hypothesis is that there is something in the Golden Company charter (if there is one) about dropping everything and returning to Westeros when the time is right.This leaves Illyrio. If Aegon is either the real thing, or some random kid that Varys found after the Rebellion, why is he participating in this plan at all? But if we accept the hypothesis that Aegon is actually Illyrio's son, through his wife who is suspected to be a Blackfyre, his actions make more sense. Illyrio is a wealthy man, he can have almost anything he wants. Almost. The entire reason he is participating in Varys' scheme is because Varys said he could give him something that he could never buy; making his son a king. It's similar to the reason people do things like buy stolen artwork. Even if they can never show it off themselves, they still have their personal pride.Of course, this leaves Varys' reason for scheming unexplained, but I'm not sure the "Aegon is real" or "Aegon is some random kid that the two of them raised to believe he was a long-lost prince" theories explain his actions very well either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im no Ser Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Why do people think he's fake?It all boils down to ''The Mummers Dragon''.Well, that and the fact that the only evidence in favor is 1) he's got the right hair and 2) Varys says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveatimperator Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 he's got the right hairAnd we don't even know that for sure. We haven't actually seen his real hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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