Why do some people think Aegon is fake, v.3

[The Bastard of Walton]

Aegon falls into one of two categories: fake and doomed to die, or real and doomed to die. In the line of succession he comes before both Jon and Dany. It becomes a huge "what was the point" moment if all of sudden all the build up around these two characters was for nothing. Why have all the intrigue around Jon's parentage if it's irrelevant? Why have Dany go on this arduous and ponderous odyssey just to have her waste her time? If Aegon winds up the true king, it's like a Scooby Doo plot twist only the unmasking takes place during the musical chase scene instead of at the end.

Did that make sense to anybody, because I am starting to wonder what the hell I just typed?

Hahaha :lol: worth it just for the scooby doo reference. I do agree that it would be crazy.

[The Storm King]

though you have to remember that GRRM planned for it to be a trilogy and if he had stuck to it aegon would have appeared in book 2. it seems like that to us since its been 5 books and 15 years :P i guess i just want aegon to be real cos i like aegon more than danaerys cos danaerys is boring me now.

[SJC]

though you have to remember that GRRM planned for it to be a trilogy and if he had stuck to it aegon would have appeared in book 2. it seems like that to us since its been 5 books and 15 years :P i guess i just want aegon to be real cos i like aegon more than danaerys cos danaerys is boring me now.

Well, he abandoned the trilogy idea while writing AGOT (which originally would have ended with the Red Wedding). So that train left the station a long time ago. Still, proportionately, Aegon's appearance would have been at the same point in the trilogy version of the story; the basic story order has not changed, just the length (and detail) of the telling.

I certainly can sympathize with your annoyance with Daenarys, though. But I think Aegon can make just as much trouble for her whether he is real or fake. She certainly will not know for sure whether he is real or not (and I see no compelling evidence that her dragons are any better of a Targaryen test than drowning people to determine whether they are witches). There will be another dance of the dragons---it's just that one will be the Blackfyre dragon in the trappings of a Targaryen dragon.

[Tini]

But I think Aegon can make just as much trouble for her whether he is real or fake.

:agree: Absolutely true.

And if Aegon is a Blackfyre, the dragons will be all but useless as a Targaryen test. Blackfyres are Targaryen in all but name. It doesn't matter if House Blackfyre was attainted, the blood is still the same.

I don't see why Aegon must be fake just because he showed up so late in the story. We heard about Aegon and his supposed fate back in aGoT, so in a way he was present right from the start. Just like Eddard Stark, whose influence can be felt in all books despite the fact that he died in the first one. That doesn't make Eddard Stark a fake, does it?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

:agree: Absolutely true.

And if Aegon is a Blackfyre, the dragons will be all but useless as a Targaryen test. Blackfyres are Targaryen in all but name. It doesn't matter if House Blackfyre was attainted, the blood is still the same.

I don't see why Aegon must be fake just because he showed up so late in the story. We heard about Aegon and his supposed fate back in aGoT, so in a way he was present right from the start. Just like Eddard Stark, whose influence can be felt in all books despite the fact that he died in the first one. That doesn't make Eddard Stark a fake, does it?

that's a good point. he has been around since the beginning.

[mystikherb]

It could go either way I feel... The idea that he's too young to be Aegon doesn't work. Though Tyrion doesn't go too in depth to describe him, he's also not an idiot. I think if "Young Griff" were way too young to be Aegon, there's no way Tyrion would randomly assume that he was. As for the mummer's dragon, I'm kind of in the mindset that Victarion may play out in that role. He may be there to side with Dany, but the fact remains that he has the dragonshorn and will probably use it (if it works, it may turn out to be in a bad way that he does). That coupled with his "dragon banners" when he is definitely not a Targaryen makes me think that he may end up in a place where he proves his falseness and betrays Dany. Not to say that it could not also be this Aegon. At any rate, I don't feel that Young Griff is DEFINITELY who he's made out to be, either. If he was, where the hell was he when Illyrio had Viserys and Dany living with him? Knowing GRRM, this could go a lot of different ways, and it's pretty interesting to think about. Nobody knows anything 'til WOW, so everything here is just a theory anyway.

[The Storm King]

is mummers dragon to be interpreted as a possessive? as in: Mummer's dragon? cos then that would mean that the dragon is real but he'sbeing controled/guided by a mummer?(varys or illyrio idk)

i just want aegon to be real

[the Scorpion Knight]

is mummers dragon to be interpreted as a possessive? as in: Mummer's dragon? cos then that would mean that the dragon is real but he'sbeing controled/guided by a mummer?(varys or illyrio idk)

i just want aegon to be real

who said Aegon is the mummer's dragon? he could also be the sun's son( Elia martells son)

[SJC]

is mummers dragon to be interpreted as a possessive? as in: Mummer's dragon? cos then that would mean that the dragon is real but he'sbeing controled/guided by a mummer?(varys or illyrio idk)

i just want aegon to be real

Even if mummer's dragon is meant to apply to Aegon, and even if it is read as a posessive description, it does not anwser the question. Aegon could be Varys' dragon and still be a fake (by which I mean, not Rhaegar's son). If Aegon is a Blackfyre, he is still a dragon (just the black dragon rather than the red). And if Aegon is just some boy Illyrio and Varys found in Essos (or anyone else for that matter), he is still being passed off as a dragon by Varys (the mummer). But really, no line, symbol or hint is going to be dispositive on one of GRRM's mysteries ... it is a tapestry spread over thousands of pages.

[The Storm King]

who said Aegon is the mummer's dragon? he could also be the sun's son( Elia martells son)

i would hope so. but then these were people who were coming to dany. aegon went to westeros. does that mean the quaithe mispredicted? or she said it cos at the time aegon was gonna go to mereen and he changed his decision after quaithe's warning?

[aryagonnakill]

who said Aegon is the mummer's dragon? he could also be the sun's son( Elia martells son)

i would hope so. but then these were people who were coming to dany. aegon went to westeros. does that mean the quaithe mispredicted? or she said it cos at the time aegon was gonna go to mereen and he changed his decision after quaithe's warning?

Certainly anything is possible, but doesn't Quentyn fit the suns son prophecy better. I mean who would describe the son of Rhaegar Targaryean in terms of his mother? Then Quentyn who actually went to Dany is Doran Martals son, who is actually the Liege Lord and Prince of Dorne. Elia was borne a Martel but died a Targaryean Doran is still a Martell.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Also what varys said about power being all a murmer and his emphasis on training aegon sugest he is fake.

[Tini]

Certainly anything is possible, but doesn't Quentyn fit the suns son prophecy better. I mean who would describe the son of Rhaegar Targaryean in terms of his mother? Then Quentyn who actually went to Dany is Doran Martals son, who is actually the Liege Lord and Prince of Dorne. Elia was borne a Martel but died a Targaryean Doran is still a Martell.

Elia remained Elia of Dorne all her life. She is never referenced as Elia Targaryen, always as Elia Martell, Princess Elia, Elia of Dorne.

As for describing Rhaegar's son in terms of his mother, this is the very reason that the prophesies are so misleading. People look at the prophesy and exclude possible readings because they consider them unlikely, just like Melisdandre does.

We don't even know what the Sun stands for. It could be Doran Martell, the Martell family, or even Dorne (or something entirely different nobody has thought of yet).

If it's Doran, the Sun's Son is Quentyn Martell. If it is his family, the Sun can refer to both Elia and Quentyn, while the description Sun's Son would fit both Quentyn and Aegon. If the Sun stands for Dorne, Sun's Son just means son of Dorne, and any Dornishman fits that description. Aegon would be out, he isn't Dornish, but Quentyn's companions all fit.

In other threads it was mentioned that Quentyn might be "the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East" (Mirri Maz Dur to Dany in AGOT). I can see Quentyn as either the Sun or the Sun's Son, but I can't see him as both - even though that is a valid reading.

I think Quentyn is the Sun that set in the East, and the Sun's Son is one of his companions - unlike Aegon they actually reached Dany, unlike Quentyn they are still alive. I think the Sun's Son will have an impact on future developments in Mereen.

As for Mummer's Dragon, that might reference someone who pretends to support Dany while secretly scheming against her. Or just someone who was sent to her by the Mummers Varys and Illyrio. There are a couple of those with Dany already, like Jorah Mormont.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Elia remained Elia of Dorne all her life. She is never referenced as Elia Targaryen, always as Elia Martell, Princess Elia, Elia of Dorne.

As for describing Rhaegar's son in terms of his mother, this is the very reason that the prophesies are so misleading. People look at the prophesy and exclude possible readings because they consider them unlikely, just like Melisdandre does.

We don't even know what the Sun stands for. It could be Doran Martell, the Martell family, or even Dorne (or something entirely different nobody has thought of yet).

If it's Doran, the Sun's Son is Quentyn Martell. If it is his family, the Sun can refer to both Elia and Quentyn, while the description Sun's Son would fit both Quentyn and Aegon. If the Sun stands for Dorne, Sun's Son just means son of Dorne, and any Dornishman fits that description. Aegon would be out, he isn't Dornish, but Quentyn's companions all fit.

In other threads it was mentioned that Quentyn might be "the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East" (Mirri Maz Dur to Dany in AGOT). I can see Quentyn as either the Sun or the Sun's Son, but I can't see him as both - even though that is a valid reading.

I think Quentyn is the Sun that set in the East, and the Sun's Son is one of his companions - unlike Aegon they actually reached Dany, unlike Quentyn they are still alive. I think the Sun's Son will have an impact on future developments in Mereen.

As for Mummer's Dragon, that might reference someone who pretends to support Dany while secretly scheming against her. Or just someone who was sent to her by the Mummers Varys and Illyrio. There are a couple of those with Dany already, like Jorah Mormont.

I agree those prophecies and predictions are so broad they could mean a lot of things. Although I do think the 'mummer's Dragon' does refer to either a blackfyre or a complete fake. personally I am hoping Aegon is a complete fake and not of the targaryen line at all, at least that way he will have no claim, and IMO Dany's dragons will be able to tell he is false. If he is a Blackfyre then he really has much more of a claim and will therefore cause a lot more problems for Dany and Jon. However I do think there are some Blackfyre descendants still lurking as well. Even Varys could be decent from them. I am shortly going to re-read DwD again since I read D&E. I think those stories will make a lot of things in DwD much more clear.

[Tini]

I think the dragons would not have liked Viserys, either. But Viserys was Targaryen even if he was not a "dragon".

The dragons killed Quentyn who did have Targaryen ancestors, just as they killed that girl who did not.

As long as there are people who believe that Aegon is real, as long as people are willing to follow him, Aegon has a claim. And Westerosi will not start believing he is fake just because dragons don't like him. Or rather: some will take it as evidence, others won't. And that holds true even if Aegon is real.

Of course the dragons might simply kill Aegon, just as they killed Quentyn. That doesn't prove anything about Aegon's ancestry, but it would lay to rest the question of Aegon's claims.

ETA: I think Dany's acceptance of Aegon will hinge on Barristan Selmy's judgment. It would serve Varys and Illyrio right if the useless old knight they sent her prevents an alliance.

[Archangel84]

I'm not sure if this was discussed before but if Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore then there's good chance that Young Griff is her son. And if she was raped by Aerys, then he's a Targaryen, just pretending to be someone else, therefore the mummer's dragon.

[The Storm King]

I'm not sure if this was discussed before but if Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore then there's good chance that Young Griff is her son. And if she was raped by Aerys, then he's a Targaryen, just pretending to be someone else, therefore the mummer's dragon.

what makes you think aerys raped ashara dayne?? i have seen no mention of them having any interaction with each other at all.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

what makes you think aerys raped ashara dayne?? i have seen no mention of them having any interaction with each other at all.

Agreed, there is no basis for this theory.

[aryagonnakill]

Elia remained Elia of Dorne all her life. She is never referenced as Elia Targaryen, always as Elia Martell, Princess Elia, Elia of Dorne.

As for describing Rhaegar's son in terms of his mother, this is the very reason that the prophesies are so misleading. People look at the prophesy and exclude possible readings because they consider them unlikely, just like Melisdandre does.

We don't even know what the Sun stands for. It could be Doran Martell, the Martell family, or even Dorne (or something entirely different nobody has thought of yet).

If it's Doran, the Sun's Son is Quentyn Martell. If it is his family, the Sun can refer to both Elia and Quentyn, while the description Sun's Son would fit both Quentyn and Aegon. If the Sun stands for Dorne, Sun's Son just means son of Dorne, and any Dornishman fits that description. Aegon would be out, he isn't Dornish, but Quentyn's companions all fit.

In other threads it was mentioned that Quentyn might be "the Sun that rises in the West and sets in the East" (Mirri Maz Dur to Dany in AGOT). I can see Quentyn as either the Sun or the Sun's Son, but I can't see him as both - even though that is a valid reading.

I think Quentyn is the Sun that set in the East, and the Sun's Son is one of his companions - unlike Aegon they actually reached Dany, unlike Quentyn they are still alive. I think the Sun's Son will have an impact on future developments in Mereen.

As for Mummer's Dragon, that might reference someone who pretends to support Dany while secretly scheming against her. Or just someone who was sent to her by the Mummers Varys and Illyrio. There are a couple of those with Dany already, like Jorah Mormont.

Well I guess we disagree right in the beginning, I do not think Elia died Pincess Elia of Dorne, I think she died Princess Elia Targaryean.

[aryagonnakill]

what makes you think aerys raped ashara dayne?? i have seen no mention of them having any interaction with each other at all.

Agreed, there is no basis for this theory.

As far as I know there is no evidence for this theory just Ser Barristans statement that Ashara Dayne was dishonored by a stark at Harrenhall, and that Ned most likely didn't do this. This basically leaves Brandon, which I believe, and Aerys the known rapist who was there. Obviously there were many other people there but Aerys as I said is a known rapist and we also have good reason to believe Ashara had a child so... no evidence but possible.