Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander

[King Aerys the Just]

Off course they escape. That's a bloody stupid point. People always escape from battle both in RL and in this series. Are you under the impression that every enemy dies in a victorious battle. Bolton manages to escape with most of his men from Green Fork. Forley Prester escapes with some couple thousand men from the Battle of the Camps. Stannis escapes the Blackwater again with a few thousand men. The only battle we've seen where there has been no word of a large amount of the enemy making an organised withdraw is the Battle of Oxcross - where one side got attack from a magical goat path in the middle of the night.

The battle of Winter Town doesn't appear to have left many survivors among the defeated either, considering that so few of the Northern lords seem to know that it was Bolton rather than Greyjoy work.

Pretty impressive of Ramsay's army, considering that it was less than a third the size of the Stark one.

[Fetch me a block]

I've already begun - indeed there are many proof that Arianne is ugly. Just look at when she tried to seduce Renly - he even smiled surprised that such an ugly woman would try to get on with him. She also has problems with Balon Swan - i don't know about you but for me she must be a hag people only treat nicely because she is a princess.

Hold up guys, I haven't finished my tyrion lannister is stupid thread

[Fetch me a block]

All jokes aside, I see where the OP is coming from

[Talleyrand]

Watch the video, "Armies of the Seven Kingdoms" by Westeros and you'll find that the Stormland's can raise a host of 25,000 max.

the Stormland part starts around 7.45. I find this pretty accurate, Renly's army was mainly made up of Reachmen rather than Stormlanders. Even when he lists his Lords bannermen, there's only a few significant Stormland houses. Although, that being said perhaps I'm overestimating the Reach, maybe you could say 8,000 - 10,000 instead. But I think that's being modest.

My issue isn't with the number, it could well be true. Though 15,000 seems high to me for a vanguard. Its your issue of getting it. You take the fact that Renly with both the Stormlands and the Reach had 20,000 mounted and use that to extrapolate that the Reach's van would be 15,000 when the two figures are unrelated.

And your last is pretty condescending and rude, but most of the replies on here are too so what the hell. No, I don't think that people can't escape when another side wins. But Randyll had the Northmen penned up at Duskendale, unlike the Blackwater, where the Lyseni remained in the bay incase of escape, unlike the Green Fork, where Roose's caution paid off and unlike the Camps, where the castle was assaulted from three sides and blocked off from each other. If there was to be a total victory there then one side would literally have to stay and fight to the death rather than retreat.

I apologise for the rudeness its just that you seem to be holding Tarly for a fault that almost every general in history has (if you deem it to be a fault). And what do you mean by had them "penned up at Duskendale"? All we have on the battle is that Tarly caught them near Duskendale. Seeing as they just marched to the Crownlands they have a clear line of withdrawal. He met the enemy, defeated them and they went back the way they came, in what context has he failed here?

[The Frost Wolf]

My issue isn't with the number, it could well be true. Though 15,000 seems high to me for a vanguard. Its your issue of getting it. You take the fact that Renly with both the Stormlands and the Reach had 20,000 mounted and use that to extrapolate that the Reach's van would be 15,000 when the two figures are unrelated.

I apologise for the rudeness its just that you seem to be holding Tarly for a fault that almost every general in history has (if you deem it to be a fault). And what do you mean by had them "penned up at Duskendale"? All we have on the battle is that Tarly caught them near Duskendale. Seeing as they just marched to the Crownlands they have a clear line of withdrawal. He met the enemy, defeated them and they went back the way they came, in what context has he failed here?

I took the numbers of the Reach's army in Robert's Rebellion and the vanguard in Renly's army to be similar because there was nothing to suggest otherwise. Apart from Freeriders and the average new landed knight, etc, the Reach doesn't seem to have any new large houses or a noted population increase. So I assumed the numbers were valid and still do.

And at Duskendale, the Northmen are ambushed and should have been completed obliterated. Considering that these men were from Roose Bolton's foot, the majority would not be mounted. And Randyll's forces would all be mounted (or how else would they reach Duskendale in time?) so it would be quite easy to run down an army that is attempting to flee on foot. Ned says something a long of the lines of "when a man flees in the face of another, the victor's blood gets up and he will keep attacking" (nowhere near the exact wording, don't penalise me for it). I got the idea of being "penned up" from something Varys said in aSoS when referring to the winding down of tWoFK.

[The Frost Wolf]

All jokes aside, I see where the OP is coming from

Now was that so hard?

[Talleyrand]

I took the numbers of the Reach's army in Robert's Rebellion and the vanguard in Renly's army to be similar because there was nothing to suggest otherwise. Apart from Freeriders and the average new landed knight, etc, the Reach doesn't seem to have any new large houses or a noted population increase. So I assumed the numbers were valid and still do.

Again, the two numbers are unrelated. The van is not all your mounted men, its your scouts and a force to secure an area for the rest of the army to set up. The cavalry is kept back on the wings in the majority for flanking and breaking weakened formations.

And at Duskendale, the Northmen are ambushed and should have been completed obliterated.

Again you are misusing a term. An ambush is the act of lying in wait for your enemy in a concealed position. Tarly's men had the drop on them sure for they weren't expected a force to attack them. But its not as if they just came out of no-where. A force the size of Tarly's cannot go unnoticed by scouts.

And Randyll's forces would all be mounted (or how else would they reach Duskendale in time?) so it would be quite easy to run down an army that is attempting to flee on foot.

This is complete speculation with no backing in the text what so ever. When Brienne comes across his army no mention is made of a large amount of horses or anything of the sort.

[The Frost Wolf]

Again, the two numbers are unrelated. The van is not all your mounted men, its your scouts and a force to secure an area for the rest of the army to set up. The cavalry is kept back on the wings in the majority for flanking and breaking weakened formations.

Again you are misusing a term. An ambush is the act of lying in wait for your enemy in a concealed position. Tarly's men had the drop on them sure for they weren't expected a force to attack them. But its not as if they just came out of no-where. A force the size of Tarly's cannot go unnoticed by scouts.

This is complete speculation with no backing in the text what so ever. When Brienne comes across his army no mention is made of a large amount of horses or anything of the sort.

You're first point, the two numbers are not necessarily unrelated. If they are, I want you to prove me wrong not just dismiss it with no reasoning. And Tarly's van would have been horse first when fighting Robert, not footmen. That is what I meant when I said van there, apologies for the wording.

I know what ambush means. And where is your evidence that the scouts saw Tarly's force coming? And if so, why didn't they retreat when seeing they were equally if not outnumbered? Actually give some evidence yourself rather than just writing definitions and picking out bad wording on my part.

And yes it is speculation, I never said that it wasn't. That doesn't make it invalid. So what's your point?

You're not actually contributing to anything, you're just picking away at my wording of things and giving definitions. Actually make a constructive reply to this post instead of picking at something new and maybe something can be salvaged from this.

[Nyrhex]

Everyone has stated how awesome Randyll Tarly is pretty frequently in the books, and we actually see how well he keeps his men disciplined when Brienne stops at Maidenpool.

Who cares how well his troops are diciplened if he can barely bring results? At Duskendale he had an army (we know this because he returned with said army to KL, where the size of it made sure he can get Margery out of the High Septon's hands), yet when knowing every detail of the coming attack he fails to do anything other then hit them head on. Thier escape was only cut off by Gregor, who had a few hundred at most IIRC. That isn't a sign of proper planning of an ambush, it shows that once again Tarly went head on, counting on his numbers. At Ashford his Van should have been about the size of Robert's army. The Reach has 70k troops now, and combined with Renly's 20k they had a mounted force of 20k. It seems likely that even if the Reach did not bring its full force it should have a considerable Van with ~10-15k men. Robert had less then the full support of the Stormlands, and he was already bloodied from earlier battles, leaving him with far less the Renly's 20k in ACOK. Due to this fact Tarly thought he does not need to wait for the rest of the army to arrive, and charged out of impatiance. The battle is reported to be a skirmish, with few casualties, and Robert is reported to leave the battlefield with his army pretty much intact.

Those are the only two battles where Tarly takes an active part (I'm not counting the Blackwater, as most of the fighting was done by Garlan's Van), and it does not realy show a good commander in terms of getting results on the battlefield. The best that can be said of him is that he did not lose battles he couldn't lose.

[Naathi Prince]

Who cares how well his troops are diciplened if he can barely bring results? At Duskendale he had an army (we know this because he returned with said army to KL, where the size of it made sure he can get Margery out of the High Septon's hands), yet when knowing every detail of the coming attack he fails to do anything other then hit them head on. Thier escape was only cut off by Gregor, who had a few hundred at most IIRC. That isn't a sign of proper planning of an ambush, it shows that once again Tarly went head on, counting on his numbers. At Ashford his Van should have been about the size of Robert's army. The Reach has 70k troops now, and combined with Renly's 20k they had a mounted force of 20k. It seems likely that even if the Reach did not bring its full force it should have a considerable Van with ~10-15k men. Robert had less then the full support of the Stormlands, and he was already bloodied from earlier battles, leaving him with far less the Renly's 20k in ACOK. Due to this fact Tarly thought he does not need to wait for the rest of the army to arrive, and charged out of impatiance. The battle is reported to be a skirmish, with few casualties, and Robert is reported to leave the battlefield with his army pretty much intact.

Those are the only two battles where Tarly takes an active part (I'm not counting the Blackwater, as most of the fighting was done by Garlan's Van), and it does not realy show a good commander in terms of getting results on the battlefield. The best that can be said of him is that he did not lose battles he couldn't lose.

Your post depends on a lot of variables that we don't actually know the truth of. What we do know for sure is that everyone in the realm respects Randyll's martial ability, and that keeping most of your soldiers, something Randyll is excellent at, is the most important skill for a commander in the era.

[HelmHammerhand]

The best that can be said of him is that he did not lose battles he couldn't lose.

That about sums it up. Tarly never used superior strategy to beat stronger or numerically superior forces and never presses home his advantage when he does win - sounds like General George McClellan in the US Civil War

[King of Winters]

Thank the gods for this topic, I finally have a reason for hating Randyll Tarly (other than the fact that he disowned Sam the Slayer) if someone asks why I hate one of the "best commanders" in Westeros

[Frey Pie]

What is wrong with some people? First few comments on this thread were more suited to somebody who is clearly trolling then somebody who is just expressing their opinion. Randyll is a very popular character among many sectors of the fandom and so i see why this got such a strong reply.

Frosted, i made a thread on this a while back. Tarly is considered a great soldier by all, not a great commander. Due to his status as a lower lord he would never command a great army, or at least would be less likely to. Hes the Kevan Lannister to Mace imo, or the BF to Robb. Hes has been shown to be competent and i wouldnt doubt him in small scale engagements. But looking at his record he is not as great as many people make him out to be. He might be, but we have no facts to back up this. George doesnt show him as a great or excellent commander, but a good one

I repeat, history has shown us that great soldiers dont always make great commanders. People saying Randyll is the best soldier in Westeros does not equal them saying he is the best commander. There is a huge difference

[Naathi Prince]

Thank the gods for this topic, I finally have a reason for hating Randyll Tarly (other than the fact that he disowned Sam the Slayer) if someone asks why I hate one of the "best commanders" in Westeros

liking or disliking him doesn't have to have anything to do with whether or not he's a good commander.

That about sums it up. Tarly never used superior strategy to beat stronger or numerically superior forces and never presses home his advantage when he does win - sounds like General George McClellan in the US Civil War

Sometimes it makes sense to press, sometimes it doesn't. We don't know what his orders from Mace Tyrell were at Ashford and at Duskendale he knew Gregor Clegane was coming for the survivors.

[Nudu]

1) Having more troops doesn't make you a terrible commander. And you say Reach levies were fresh and i say they were green. You could just see this as Robert's troops were experienced and Reachmen had no idea what they were doing.

2) Stannis really became a big threat. And even with a small army a man like Stannis Baratheon can be a trouble. He might still get the support of the Iron Bank or he could accept Robb Stark's Kingdom and beg him for the throne. Stannis had a better claim and this makes him a big threat.

And even if you are right this makes him a bad ass licker. Not a terrible commander.

3) Lord Tarly let the Northman retreat so Gregor Clagene could crush them. And even it was not winning a victory does not make you a terrible commander.

I could understand if you have said overrated but naming him a terrible commander is just funny.

[Frey Pie]

I believe the reference to him being terrible is just opposed to people who say hes the bestest

[Naathi Prince]

I believe the reference to him being terrible is just opposed to people who say hes the bestest

Which is a silly reason to make a statement. He's obviously a competent commander, and the order he keeps his army in makes him invaluable in the long run.

[Arkantos]

I agree that Randyll is ridiculously overrated, it doesn't mean he's terrible though.

[Frey Pie]

Which is a silly reason to make a statement. He's obviously a competent commander, and the order he keeps his army in makes him invaluable in the long run.

Iv seen a lot worse get a lot better replies. His argument is valid. Randyll isnt a great commander. OP went over the top but somebody needs to dispell the aura around this man

[Naathi Prince]

Iv seen a lot worse get a lot better replies. His argument is valid. Randyll isnt a great commander. OP went over the top but somebody needs to dispell the aura around this man

Is there an aura? Most people hate him, and he's one of the few undefeated commanders in the books. Terrible is a more ridiculous thing to say than awesome, when it comes to his command skills. We see how his army behaves at Maidenpool and Saltpans, and its impressive.