Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander

[Arkantos]

Hey, don't you know? Kevan Lannister (from the west) knows all about Randylls prowess first hand.

[Talleyrand]

You're first point, the two numbers are not necessarily unrelated. If they are, I want you to prove me wrong not just dismiss it with no reasoning. And Tarly's van would have been horse first when fighting Robert, not footmen. That is what I meant when I said van there, apologies for the wording.

Again you are making facts to suit your argument that have no basis in the text. You're just deciding the make-up of any army with nothing to back it up and then using it to justify your argument

I know what ambush means. And where is your evidence that the scouts saw Tarly's force coming? And if so, why didn't they retreat when seeing they were equally if not outnumbered? Actually give some evidence yourself rather than just writing definitions and picking out bad wording on my part.

Because if you can't spot an army which is significantly larger than 3000 men then you're a terrible commander. Do you know how much noise that many men would make, especially if they're all mounted as you claim. And in the text there is no reference to the Northerners being caught unawares or anything of the sort.

[Nyrhex]

Your post depends on a lot of variables that we don't actually know the truth of.

I said "likely". It seems reasonable to assume Tarly did not have less troops then Robert at Ashford, and if he did, not much less. We know the rest. We know he has an army in Duskendale, and we know that the battle was rigged to bleed the North by Roose.

What we do know for sure is that everyone in the realm respects Randyll's martial ability, and that keeping most of your soldiers, something Randyll is excellent at, is the most important skill for a commander in the era.

Keeping most of your soldiers is by far NOT the most important skill of a commander. Tarly charges at Ashford, yet held back from persueing Robert. You claim it was a good move, as Tarly does not wish to lose more men. The battle sees Robert allowed to move north, where he later links up with 3 more rebel armies, crushing Rhaegar (both metaphorically and literally), dooming the loyalist's cause. How is that helpfull to the war effort? The Reach has barely lost men, but they lost the war.

Considering him a fine soldier is one thing (though considering Sam only learned how to use a bow at the Night Watch would imply otherwise), but claiming that makes him a good commander is quite another.

[FCOS]

I disagree with your point about the numbers in his Van. The power of the reach was in the army, but that doesn't mean they were in the Van. A Van is the first attack, but, the majority of the army would have stayed back, as the main attack. At most, only 10,000 in the Van, probably less.

[The Frost Wolf]

What is wrong with some people? First few comments on this thread were more suited to somebody who is clearly trolling then somebody who is just expressing their opinion. Randyll is a very popular character among many sectors of the fandom and so i see why this got such a strong reply.

Frosted, i made a thread on this a while back. Tarly is considered a great soldier by all, not a great commander. Due to his status as a lower lord he would never command a great army, or at least would be less likely to. Hes the Kevan Lannister to Mace imo, or the BF to Robb. Hes has been shown to be competent and i wouldnt doubt him in small scale engagements. But looking at his record he is not as great as many people make him out to be. He might be, but we have no facts to back up this. George doesnt show him as a great or excellent commander, but a good one

I repeat, history has shown us that great soldiers dont always make great commanders. People saying Randyll is the best soldier in Westeros does not equal them saying he is the best commander. There is a huge difference

Apologies if this has been done before, I genuinely did make numerous searches about Tarly before starting this thread. Not one to re-make/copy ideas.

[The Frost Wolf]

1) Having more troops doesn't make you a terrible commander. And you say Reach levies were fresh and i say they were green. You could just see this as Robert's troops were experienced and Reachmen had no idea what they were doing.

2) Stannis really became a big threat. And even with a small army a man like Stannis Baratheon can be a trouble. He might still get the support of the Iron Bank or he could accept Robb Stark's Kingdom and beg him for the throne. Stannis had a better claim and this makes him a big threat.

And even if you are right this makes him a bad ass licker. Not a terrible commander.

3) Lord Tarly let the Northman retreat so Gregor Clagene could crush them. And even it was not winning a victory does not make you a terrible commander.

I could understand if you have said overrated but naming him a terrible commander is just funny.

I believe the reference to him being terrible is just opposed to people who say hes the bestest

I agree that Randyll is ridiculously overrated, it doesn't mean he's terrible though.

Which is a silly reason to make a statement. He's obviously a competent commander, and the order he keeps his army in makes him invaluable in the long run.

Is there an aura? Most people hate him, and he's one of the few undefeated commanders in the books. Terrible is a more ridiculous thing to say than awesome, when it comes to his command skills. We see how his army behaves at Maidenpool and Saltpans, and its impressive.

I previously stated that I only used the world "terrible" to get some shock. The content of my original post points to the fact that he is highly overrated however, not that he is awful. I would edit the title if I could, but I made a bad decision writing it "terrible" so just exchange the word for "overrated".

[Mladen]

So the fact that Duskendale was a pyrrhic victory, that Tarly did advise Renly to attack Stannis and that Robert had just fought three battles is just .... wrong? Please explain WHY you think I'm wrong, rather than "No, wrong."

So you want me to elaborate where you were wrong. Well, it seems to me that everyone else did that just fine, so l can do that too

1. Robert`s rebellion achievement

Randyll won the battle against Robert fair and square. You can argue about Robert`s forces, number of Randyll`s forces etc. But, that means nothing. You were wrong that Randyll got all the force of the Reach. He was just a vanguard to Mace Tyrell. Randyll didn`t have much greater number than Robert. Also, decision to go on Storms End wasn`t Randyll`s.

2. Advising Renly

Good commander recognizes another. Randyll exactly knew how dangerous Stannis is, so he wanted Renly to get rid off Stannis as soon as possible. And that was good advice. Stannis could have hurt them enough to make the siege of KL impossible. So to face him once and for all was actually great advice. What Randyll, and no one, by that matter, couldn`t have predicted is Melisandre.

3. Duskendale

This was lost for both sides, and I imagine a chaos happened in Duskendale. We don`t know with how many soldiers Tarly went from KL, we don`t know what heavy loss exactly means in number. We know he won, it was bloody, but he gave a good punch to Robb Stark`s army. He defeated two great Lords of the North. Also the Robb`s loss is much greater than Randyll`s.

And now, you are wrong for not looking at facts than just, through subjective eyes, observed Randyll`s capability. Randyll didn`t lose any battle by this moment, and it wasn`t because of luck. You just don`t like him so you are trying to explain that by some relatively unimportant things (his advice, Ashford, Robert`s tired army, numbers you are not sure about). I am sorry, but I don`t appreciate hate threads.

And that last line was very condescending. Thanks for that too.

The last line was supposed to be condescending. You welcome, any time.

[The Frost Wolf]

Again you are making facts to suit your argument that have no basis in the text. You're just deciding the make-up of any army with nothing to back it up and then using it to justify your argument

Because if you can't spot an army which is significantly larger than 3000 men then you're a terrible commander. Do you know how much noise that many men would make, especially if they're all mounted as you claim. And in the text there is no reference to the Northerners being caught unawares or anything of the sort.

So by your logic, 3000 Northerners decided to take on Duskendale and an army of 3000 (possibly more). For what logical reason? Now THAT is a terrible commander.

[Lord Flashheart]

So now if you win a battle why does it matter what you had in you're pocket? Knights, lances, horses, 50,000 more men? wtf does it matter you WON! So all I read here is 8 paragraphs written by Sam about how his dad is a douche. very compelling stuff.

[Frey Pie]

So you want me to elaborate where you were wrong. Well, it seems to me that everyone else did that just fine, so l can do that too

1. Robert`s rebellion achievement

Randyll won the battle against Robert fair and square. You can argue about Robert`s forces, number of Randyll`s forces etc. But, that means nothing. You were wrong that Randyll got all the force of the Reach. He was just a vanguard to Mace Tyrell. Randyll didn`t have much greater number than Robert. Also, decision to go on Storms End wasn`t Randyll`s.

2. Advising Renly

Good commander recognizes another. Randyll exactly knew how dangerous Stannis is, so he wanted Renly to get rid off Stannis as soon as possible. And that was good advice. Stannis could have hurt them enough to make the siege of KL impossible. So to face him once and for all was actually great advice. What Randyll, and no one, by that matter, couldn`t have predicted is Melisandre.

3. Duskendale

This was lost for both sides, and I imagine a chaos happened in Duskendale. We don`t know with how many soldiers Tarly went from KL, we don`t know what heavy loss exactly means in number. We know he won, it was bloody, but he gave a good punch to Robb Stark`s army. He defeated two great Lords of the North. Also the Robb`s loss is much greater than Randyll`s.

And now, you are wrong for not looking at facts than just, through subjective eyes, observed Randyll`s capability. Randyll didn`t lose any battle by this moment, and it wasn`t because of luck. You just don`t like him so you are trying to explain that by some relatively unimportant things (his advice, Ashford, Robert`s tired army, numbers you are not sure about). I am sorry, but I don`t appreciate hate threads.

It has been stated that Randyll had many more men then the Northmen. They were sent there to be slaughtered purposely. Randyll likley had a good mix of cavalry, archers and infantry. Huge advantages. His extremely hard fought win shows competence, but no brilliance on his part

As for his advice to Renly. Stannis has 5000 men. SE is garrisoned by 500. No way it can be taken (nobody knows shadows kill in Westeros). Tywin and Robb are at eachothers throats and KL is starving. There are no troops or lords loyal to Stannis in the Stormlands. Renly could have sent a sizeable amount of men to confront him in good time, or to secure his supply lines, and still have dominated KL. Its never perfect having an enemy at your rear but i think KL was the best place to go to. Take KL and you take the throne, win the people, and have a load of hostages. This is especially true when your rear is pretty strong, as Renlys was

[The Frost Wolf]

So you want me to elaborate where you were wrong. Well, it seems to me that everyone else did that just fine, so l can do that too

1. Robert`s rebellion achievement

Randyll won the battle against Robert fair and square. You can argue about Robert`s forces, number of Randyll`s forces etc. But, that means nothing. You were wrong that Randyll got all the force of the Reach. He was just a vanguard to Mace Tyrell. Randyll didn`t have much greater number than Robert. Also, decision to go on Storms End wasn`t Randyll`s.

2. Advising Renly

Good commander recognizes another. Randyll exactly knew how dangerous Stannis is, so he wanted Renly to get rid off Stannis as soon as possible. And that was good advice. Stannis could have hurt them enough to make the siege of KL impossible. So to face him once and for all was actually great advice. What Randyll, and no one, by that matter, couldn`t have predicted is Melisandre.

3. Duskendale

This was lost for both sides, and I imagine a chaos happened in Duskendale. We don`t know with how many soldiers Tarly went from KL, we don`t know what heavy loss exactly means in number. We know he won, it was bloody, but he gave a good punch to Robb Stark`s army. He defeated two great Lords of the North. Also the Robb`s loss is much greater than Randyll`s.

And now, you are wrong for not looking at facts than just, through subjective eyes, observed Randyll`s capability. Randyll didn`t lose any battle by this moment, and it wasn`t because of luck. You just don`t like him so you are trying to explain that by some relatively unimportant things (his advice, Ashford, Robert`s tired army, numbers you are not sure about). I am sorry, but I don`t appreciate hate threads.

The last line was supposed to be condescending. You welcome, any time.

1. That wasn't my argument. Go back and refresh yourself with the OP and rewrite this statement. And again you're just saying "wrong" and "no" without any evidence except this time you decided to write a longer post. Give me some evidence for your claims or what you're saying is pointless.

2. I agree with parts of it. Again though, refresh yourself.

3. I have no dislike or like of Randyll. I am completely neutral. I looked at the results (refresh your memory, once more http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_Duskendale) and it showed that Randyll's forces are larger yet he sustained great losses.

Nice post though, thumbs up for ... effort? Not even. Oh well, next time.

[Frey Pie]

Duskendale was an ambush on the Northern forces, set up by Roose, Tywin, Gregor and Randyll. It was orchestrated slaughter, in the same way the RW was. The Northerners never had a chance, nor were they supposed to

[Lord Flashheart]

Nice post though, thumbs up for ... effort? Not even. Oh well, next time.

Thumbs up for being a Douche!

[The Frost Wolf]

It has been stated that Randyll had many more men then the Northmen. They were sent there to be slaughtered purposely. Randyll likley had a good mix of cavalry, archers and infantry. Huge advantages. His extremely hard fought win shows competence, but no brilliance on his part

As for his advice to Renly. Stannis has 5000 men. SE is garrisoned by 500. No way it can be taken (nobody knows shadows kill in Westeros). Tywin and Robb are at eachothers throats and KL is starving. There are no troops or lords loyal to Stannis in the Stormlands. Renly could have sent a sizeable amount of men to confront him in good time, or to secure his supply lines, and still have dominated KL. Its never perfect having an enemy at your rear but i think KL was the best place to go to. Take KL and you take the throne, win the people, and have a load of hostages. This is especially true when your rear is pretty strong, as Renlys was

Precisely. Thank the gods someone is actually listening to what I'm saying and constructing a discussion instead of dismissing it as "Randyll hate" (I don't even dislike him or like him) or "A nice try".

[The Frost Wolf]

Thumbs up for being a Douche!

Check out what he said to me before. First few comments and he decides to literally say "No. You're wrong. Nice try." with no evidence, no nothing.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

You're hating on Tarly? Goodness gracious you can't do that! Don't confuse his fans with facts!

[Frey Pie]

Precisely. Thank the gods someone is actually listening to what I'm saying and constructing a discussion instead of dismissing it as "Randyll hate" (I don't even dislike him or like him) or "A nice try".

Ha no worries. I made a sarcastic thread before and even after saying multiple times that it was sarcastic people still didnt care to read. Randyll doesnt put me up or down. And no bother with the thread. We had a better discussion in that one though ;)

[Lord Flashheart]

Check out what he said to me before. First few comments and he decides to literally say "No. You're wrong. Nice try." with no evidence, no nothing.

Fair enough I didn't read every post only the first and the ones on this page.

I don't understand the point of threads like this though, He won the battles he fought so advantages or not what was he supposed to do? Ask for a fair fight? Being able to produce a better army should not be a negative thing.

[Frey Pie]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71331-randyll-tarly/

If your interested Frost

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

More facts?? Oh the HORROR! You may never survive the onslaught.