Theory: the great other is R'hllor

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

No, it isn't.

Please dont even go there....

Rhlor priests are fighting the others. The only ones truly aware of the danger westeros is facing...

[Manfryd Lothston]

Rhlor priests are fighting the others. The only ones truly aware of the danger westeros is facing...

To be fair, only Melisandre is actively engaged against the Others, and she is half an apostate herself (being a shadowbinder). The Red Temple seems a lot more keen on aiding Daenerys rather than the Night's Watch. In all of his rousing speeches Benerro never even refers (explicitly) to the White Walkers, or the Wall, or Westeros for that matter.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

To be fair, only Melisandre is actively engaged against the Others, and she is half an apostate herself (being a shadowbinder). The Red Temple seems a lot more keen on aiding Daenerys rather than the Night's Watch. In all of his rousing speeches Benerro never even refers (explicitly) to the White Walkers, or the Wall, or Westeros for that matter.

Right, but lady M. is the main red priestess. Also the symbol of Rhlor and their priests is the fire, exactly the very opposite of The Others (dark and ice).

[Manfryd Lothston]

Right, but lady M. is the main red priestess.

We don't know for sure what Melisandre's true standing in the Red Priest hierarchy is. She is not the High Priest (Benerro is that), and she never talks - or thinks - about cooperation with others from her order. It is quite possible that she is acting alone, is a rogue priest or even an apostate (somehow I doubt that the R'hllor faith looks favourably on shadows, which are creatures of darkness at least as much as of light, if not more).

If Mel was indeed an invested emissary of the Red Faith, she would have certainly maintained some communication with their headquarters, and seeing how she believes the Others are the main threat, would have spared no effort in impressing her church with the importance of sending resources to the Wall. But she doesn't do any of those things, and the Red Temple seems either ignorant or dismissive of the Wall, instead focusing its efforts on Daenerys. Which casts doubt on Melisandre's relationship with the other Red Priests.

At the same time, I think it's made fairly clear that Mel is indeed powerful with the Red God's magic (her visions alone are very impressive, even if we discard her shadowbinding abilities as coming more from her "sorcerer" rather than "clerical" levels). So, she may be an instrument of R'hllor that is acting outside of the official Red hierarchy.

[Qyburn0896]

Something new I thought of recently, tell me what you think.

Patchface is the Great Other incarnate. He is a vessel that the Great Other partially resides in, in the flesh. The Drowned God is associated with, or is yet another version of, the Great Other. It allows the Great Other to stay physically close to what amounts to his (chesspiece) queen, that of course being Melissandre.

Hodor is the vessel that the old gods (partially) reside in. Like the old gods, no one knows his real name. I feel there could be some symbolism in that.

Hodor and Patchface are both, well, "messed up", in their own ways. And it would be relatable and referrable to countless divine hosts written throughout the history of literature that their respective deities would not be "all there" while residing in them, but rather only a piece of the deity. Afterall if you're going to have even a tiny piece of a god living in your body, how much of the mortal's personality would be left? And what state would it be in?

I'm fairly sure the Patchface theory has been brought up before, possibly even in this thread. But for his Hodor counterpart theory to work I think you'd first have to accept that R'hllor = Great Other. The true arch-nemeses are matching each other tit-for-tat, champion for champion, observer-for-observer. Would this not be a cool explanation for the enigma that is Hodor?

[Targaryen_Rubies]

To be fair I don't think that's actually what happened. I think he gave her up as his wife ("sacrificed" her), but I think the sword-through-the-heart thing is a misinterpretation. Now, you could argue what kind of culture in Asshai could come up with that interpretation ...

Breaking her heart? By 'giving her up' it could be that he's leaving her, for whatever purpose, and symbolically stabbing her in the heart and she would then die of heartbreak.

[stffnt0]

The most significant clue in all in this is the fact that the antagonist is the Great Other whose name may never be spoken: why may it never be spoken? Because it is R'hllor.

I agree. George RR Martin always says how he thinks evil is something fought inside each individual's mind. It seems likely this should count for R'hllor as well.

[oursisthefury69]

This is such a ridiculous tread, not enough's been explained through the first 5 books to determine who or what these 2 entities are, and you think ou can figure it all out so there just the same thing, awesome

[BitsOfBrains]

I highly doubt there is a truly "ultimate good guy" and an "ultimate bad guy" in ASOIAF.

As far as I can tell, pretty much EVERYONE in ASOIAF is some sort of grey.

I just hope this whole thing is wrapped up in a neat package.

It would really piss me off if it was just some ambiguous "you decide" kind of ending like BS Galactica, Mass Effect, or the Sopranos.

[The Mother of The Others]

I highly doubt there is a truly "ultimate good guy" and an "ultimate bad guy" in ASOIAF.

It would really piss me off if it was just some ambiguous "you decide" kind of ending like BS Galactica, Mass Effect, or the Sopranos.

Yeah I'm not saying there's an actual god entity here with a name like Jim, or Jimoyah-quan if you like your gods to sound old-timey. And the forces involved aren't split along good-and-evil lines, because that's not George's focus. I just mentioned that as the example from Dark Crystal. But there is a "real as real gets" fire phenomenon with ways to climb aboard and ride the fire train to wherever it leads, as the Targs and fire priests are doing. So the underlying forces of fire and ice are "fucking" real even if the gods Mel refers to aren't. Personifying the forces by naming them Jack & Jill is just her way of framing the discussion of some very real magical physics. (And Battlestar's series finale was extremely erotic for me, even tho many "Others" felt that it sucked in a bad way).

The most significant clue in all in this is the fact that the antagonist is the Great Other whose name may never be spoken: why may it never be spoken? Because it is R'hllor.

Yeah she may know the forbidden history of how her "god" got away and went missing in action and now must be hunted down where "he" retreated to beyond the wall, thanks to some ages-old schism between Fire & Ice caused perhaps by human foolishness. Early fire priests were probably involved, which is why they feel so guilty that they'd hide the real name of the problem because it leads back to them messing with what they shouldn't have, all for powers which they shouldn't have laid claim to.)

I also agree that the shadow-baby birthed by Melisandre rings false to me- the lord of light birthing a mystical shadow assassin bent on death? Come on! There is nothing light about it which is why I think there is no R'hllor, and no great Other, just human desire

Mel's ability to use both light and dark powers might make her a throwback to the times when Fire & Ice were still conjoined in the old way, before the schism? Or by straddling light and dark she's trying to bridge the divide, seeing that as her ultimate mission. In tackling the Great Other, she's bringing him to justice somehow as her pantheon's black sheep so that he can be harmonized, returned into the fold, and the world healed? (Assuming her shadow babies do in fact make her different from other fire priests). Or, you're on to something and she's just a lying manipulator who's taking from every magic discipline she can get her hands on, which is why she wants more complete access to Ice magic by Defeating the lords of ice magic and then grabbing the spoils of victory.

Love your point about the black and white temple. I've not really thought about the connection here, but I'm fully subscribed to the view that "the great Other" has people acting on it's behalf we don't know about. To kill a man without question because god tells you (the faceless men) seems about as misanthropic as you can get- sorry Arya, you are an agent of "the great Other" imo without knowing it, the room full of skins in the temple makes me think of the Dreadfort- (Roose/Ramsey= Others?) and didn't Littlefinger's family come from Braavos, where the temple is located? Hasn't Littlefinger been trying to get as many people as possible killed/sacrificed? All these characters, (and now Lady Stoneheart) seem bent on man's destruction, and all seem to have connections.

This would be an awesome use of LF! And an awesome end for Arya! (Instead of us worrying about where Arya's headed to, she could stay put and her finale could be to kill off all the other Faceless once it becomes clear from the actions of the FM at the Citadel that the Faceless intend to betray all mankind to death because their cult mentality tells them the time has come for humanity to receive their gift.) Lately, I've been prefering to interpret the Temple of Black and White differently though: as model behavior for a world that should be harmonizing its magic forces. They've done with light & dark what the world needs to do with Fire & Ice. And in a way.... it's made them a more enlightened set of judges than any we have on Earth. It all depends on how you see through the looking glass, as with Mel's visions, I suppose.

The thermostat that mounts the world

Yes.

Bran saw the "Heart of Winter", which I assume is a (possibly extra-dimensional) citadel of the Others, protected from greenseers by special anti-scrying/anti-shapeshifter traps (the spikes with the bodies below).

In another topic I just gasmed by picturing the Great Other as not a GreenSeer but an IceSeer who connected not with a tree but with the world itself----using the planet's magnetic North Pole in lieu of a weirwood. That'd keep the Heart of Winter stationary, which Bran's vision implied. It'd also explain why Mel got confused when she detected Bloodraven and Bran---because these greenseers would be broadcasting a very similar magical signature as her sought-after Great Other, who is an IceSeer using the same kind of power to tap into the world at large. And it'd make this being truly scary, because from that Heart of Winter it could magically grow glaciers by will alone, perhaps with each of The Others acting as mobile relay stations---warg-linked to the Great Other, they distribute Its supernatural chill everywhere they walk, expanding Its supernatural Winter as they go. Eventually targeting the oceans as the cold spreads unchecked. Its location must be nuked, etc!

[RaidenSchumacher]

This is such a ridiculous tread, not enough's been explained through the first 5 books to determine who or what these 2 entities are, and you think ou can figure it all out so there just the same thing, awesome

Lol, I'm quite sure they are not the same thing!

You might as well have a theory that Jon is Ned and Lyanna is Danaerys, because why not? George RR Martin likes twists and that's a twist!

That's the stupid stick that we repeatedly get hit over the head with in this thread.

[Tommen Beetsbane]

i read on one of these threads that mel is from a different faction then thoros,which might explain there differences in powers/personalities

[Gneisenau]

Somebody who has an account here wrote a comparison between Norse Ragnorak and ASOIAF. Basically, Dany, Bran, Jon and Mel represent "magic" and fight against the other characters (mankind).

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.ca/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

[Senzafaccia]

I have my personal theory.

I don't buy the "R'hllor is the good guy/Great Other is the bad guy or viceversa" stuff, but I don't buy the "all is one, same coin" stuff either.

I believe we have two equal sides, each one good and bad. That's why it' a "song": because there's no good/bad side, but both have their own good/bad side.

Others are the bad side, CotF the good side of Ice.

R'hllor is the bad side, Dragons the good side of fire.

I think the bad sides are going to fight each other for supremacy, while the good sides will join to save the world.

[Benjen of the Kingsguard]

Personally I don't think there actually is a "Great Other".

While there certainly has to be a source to the others, it doesn't have to be a being.

[MoIaF]

Yeah I'm not saying there's an actual god entity here with a name like Jim, or Jimoyah-quan if you like your gods to sound old-timey. And the forces involved aren't split along good-and-evil lines, because that's not George's focus. I just mentioned that as the example from Dark Crystal. But there is a "real as real gets" fire phenomenon with ways to climb aboard and ride the fire train to wherever it leads, as the Targs and fire priests are doing. So the underlying forces of fire and ice are "fucking" real even if the gods Mel refers to aren't. Personifying the forces by naming them Jack & Jill is just her way of framing the discussion of some very real magical physics. (And Battlestar's series finale was extremely erotic for me, even tho many "Others" felt that it sucked in a bad way).

I LOVE the Dark Crystal!

I have my personal theory.

I don't buy the "R'hllor is the good guy/Great Other is the bad guy or viceversa" stuff, but I don't buy the "all is one, same coin" stuff either.

I believe we have two equal sides, each one good and bad. That's why it' a "song": because there's no good/bad side, but both have their own good/bad side.

Others are the bad side, CotF the good side of Ice.

R'hllor is the bad side, Dragons the good side of fire.

I think the bad sides are going to fight each other for supremacy, while the good sides will join to save the world.

I like this a lot, very interesting and I can totally see it happening.

[So NOT a Maiden Fair]

The Great Other is a Cthulu-like Kraken trapped in a frozen sea in The Land of Always Winter.

What is dead may never die! Yeah, I was hoping someone would mention the Drowned God, cause I think he has a role to play too. (Or maybe he is the Great Other)

[Ser Davos1775]

Some great theories. I'm of the volition that they each have the good and bad side, as stated above. The Drowned and The seven are the wildcards imo.

I have long hoped that GRRM will reconcile all the Gods by the end of the saga.

Some oddball thoughts that may or may not belong in this thread. ..

What if Forel, Hagar and The Kindley Man are all one in the same?

Forel was caught, changed into Hagar... Arya frees him....

Does his deeds and proceeds back to THoB&W. I think it's a plausible twist and a pretty food one at that. It also helps explain the knowledge of Arya of house Stark.

What if Davos is AA?

This one is pure speculation but a twist. Reborn on smoke and salt of the blackwater...

I think he would stuble upon it, ie. Mercy killing Stannis but in turn creating lightbring (his Nissa) and he hates the red god. Just thought it'd be interesting

[Qyburn0896]

What if Davos is AA?

This one is pure speculation but a twist. Reborn on smoke and salt of the blackwater...

That would be cool because of the poetic justice. Stupid Stannis would have had him right under his nose the whole time he was being bamboozled.

In my worldview, Azor Ahai never existed. He's an extension of the mythology contrived by the true enemy. But needless to say that could be wrong.

[Nucky Thompson]

Yep, it seems very likely. Moreover, it would tie up some loose ends very nicely. On these forums there was a theory that the army being assembled by the Tiger Triarchs majority at Volantis will not, in fact, be sailing for Meereen, but instead would invade King's Landing. Now, this view was opposed by a hypothesis that the slaves in said army would rebel and choose to aid Daenerys. But those two agendas aren't mutually exclusive: if the goals of Daenerys and the Red Lot are the same, then the High Priest would simply issue a directive stating this is so, and then there is no reason for them to rebel but instead will support her officially by doing the Triarchs' bidding.