Theory: the great other is R'hllor

[Mithras]

Mel is not a red priestess. She does not remember most of her past and she is most probably controlled by someone through her ruby necklace.

[Drth_Fel]

The movie Dark Crystal seems to be the inspiration for all things that have come after. Like how Kevin Bacon is connected to all things. Probably some schism happened way back in the deeps of time and it threw the planetary forces out of wack. The diety or planetary animus split into hot and cold magical creature manifestations. They don't necessarily need to both die, but they need to be harmonized back into synch so they're not toxic in their effects anymore. And the task of the last hero can finally be complete. In Dark Crystal the split souls of the original creatures manifested as all-good and all-evil twins for each soul, and they finally disappeared when the long split beings were merged back together again. iirc. I hope Martin's finale isn't marked by a Tolkein style end to the age of magic, because that leaves the world boring all of a sudden just because his saga is done.

New to forums after devouring series multiple times over last year and watching all 3 TV seasons.

I noticed GRRM is getting rather irritated with the people drinking the "haterade" in terms of how long it takes to create each book and the desire for certain outcomes. I think GRRM is going to pull another WTF moment at the very end of the series in the epilogue, and it will be something like this: "The Council of Maesters has met and after due consideration has decided to change the name of our world from Planetos to..... Alderaan!"

(Cue hordes of fans going batsh*t crazy, brains exploding, etc.)

Game, set and match to both Georges...

[scrotomicbomb]

I totally agree. It makes a lot of sense.

[Ser Davos1775]

For some of us winter has been coming for eighteen frackin' years.

The wait is nothing new and it allows for conversations/theories or hypothesis to be aired and discussed. We won't know whom is right or wrong until 'A Dream of Spring' is hitting shelfs.

That is part the beauty of what GRRM has created with this saga. You can re-read them, find more foreshadows or missed dialogue. Hear fellow fans points of view, dissenting arguments( in proper form, not yelling) it is fun.

I think GRRM understand how badly fans want the next books, as I'm sure he has seen a monthly increase into his accounts. Be that as it may, he is also sticking to his writing methodology and I say, more power to him.

Don't change a thing. I'd rather wait the full 20-25 years to have a perfect GRRM saga, rather than a rushed and cobbled togerth last two books.

[tyrionstark]

The password for my account 'Qyburn0896' has ceased to work and I could not figure out why or how. Sucks. It'd be great if an admin could help.

Anyway, some additions to the theory.

Shireen. There are rumors that Patchface is her father. Does anyone here doubt that they are true? There's no reason Martin would randomly include an untrue rumor imo, at least not in this case.

The song included at the end of the episode "Kissed By Fire" was sung by Shireen and 'written' (for lack of at better word) by her 'friend' (for lack of a better word) Patchface. End of episode song = too much significance put on the relationship between these two characters for it not to mean something big.

Shireen has greyscale. The Stone Men exhibit particularly Other-ish characteristics. And how many people were actually BORN with the disease. (I checked the wiki and it mentions Harlon Greyjoy dying from it as a child. Interesting name, btw.)

[The Mother of The Others]

There's been a necessary password reset for everybody. If you still have your same email you signed up with active, you can get back in to your old account by doing the password reset. If not, it'll be tougher or impossible for you, I don't know if they're providing help for those people.

[tyrionstark]

Thanks for the info. It's as I figured (but was hoping against). I only use 3 emails regularly, and I found this acct - which I made solely for wiki editing - on one of the regular three. I must have been on a weeklong bender when I made the email for the acct I want back because I can't find it anywhere, lol.

[Blugenes]

I think there is a splice between Cthulhu Mythos and Zoroastrianism at play here. In one sect of Zoroastrianism Ahura Mazda and Ahriman are in opposition but both answer to Zurvan ("time") with fire as a purifying entity. There are also a pair of twin deities in the Lovecraft Mythos with one being fire and a name close to R'hllor and the other being ice with a name close to Bing-Thun or something like that. Dagon out of the Cthulhu Mythos is also a very close parallel to the Drowned God, so lord knows what sorts of horrors night wait beyond the wall.

[The_Quiet_Wolf]

I have been on the fence about Melisandre for 2 (main, not only) reasons: 1 is that she thinks Stannis is AA (which to me is ridiculous from the get go) and when she sees the three-eyed-crow and bran in her flames she thinks they work for the great other. If she can't recognize a green seer for what he is, I don't think she's doing her job right.

Most importantly, and possibly the weakest evidence against this theory, was the last scene of season 4 episode 4. Now I know as well as you all that the show hasn't always been faithful ::cough, cough:: but there is the fact that the DB's have visited Martin and got some of the ideas for the next books that they can work into the show. And IF AND ONLY IF the episode on April 27 can be believed, I can't see Mel working for the great other, or that thing being Rhllor. Obviously this is tainted by the show, but I think Rhllor might be all he's cracked up to be, but Mel ain't even close.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I have been on the fence about Melisandre for 2 (main, not only) reasons: 1 is that she thinks Stannis is AA (which to me is ridiculous from the get go) and when she sees the three-eyed-crow and bran in her flames she thinks they work for the great other. If she can't recognize a green seer for what he is, I don't think she's doing her job right.

<snip

Has she ever? I can't recall her being right about anything. She always seems to get things garbled, even the gray girl on a dying horse fleeing a marriage (one of her brighter moments, sadly). While she got the overall picture right she misunderstood the details and predicted the wrong girl.

I think she's sincere by incompetent to a large degree. She's in for some serious let-down.

[Chris Weaver]

Has she ever? I can't recall her being right about anything. She always seems to get things garbled, even the gray girl on a dying horse fleeing a marriage (one of her brighter moments, sadly). While she got the overall picture right she misunderstood the details and predicted the wrong girl.

I think she's sincere by incompetent to a large degree. She's in for some serious let-down.

My theory is that she gets things garbled because there is a major limitation on how she can communicate with R'hllor: R'hllor can only answer the questions his Red Priests put to him. Melisandre's questions are tainted with her bias towards Stannis, which R'hllor answers as best as he can given the limitation. If they ask the right questions, R'hllor can give the helpful answers (for instance, when Melisandre finally asks whether the War of Five Kings was the war they really should have been fighting in the first place, R'hllor points them to the Wall).

[Jammy357]

I came to thinking that Rhllor is a Dragon before reading this forum too. But I have a feeling that the Great Other might turn out to be a Direwolf. Both suitable Avatars of Ice and Fire, Winter and Summer, Westeros and Essos, Life and Death. I'd also like the idea that they both have a human shaped herald, champion or general of sorts such as Azor Ahai (who I think will prove to be Jon Snow this time round who will warg a dragon before the end) for Rhllor. Perhaps the nights king story will develop to provide his opposite number? He's been around for a while, but I think the Great Other has too. Wherever his body may be I think a part of his mind is currently occupying the brain of Hodor who has been busy gifting warging powers to Starks. The Starks have always been loyal First Men defenders of the North, they've just forgotten which direction they're defending against.

Never heard the Rhllor trapped in the ice wall idea before though, it's interesting. Where would the Other be entombed then? Under the Smoking Sea would seem like a fitting dualistic prison for the god of ice.

[paeragon]

Hello first post in the forums. woohoo.

I thought I'd add with a theory of my own. I don't believe I saw it in this thread but forgive me if I'm repeating something that may be in another thread on the forums. Since we don't know a great deal about either R'hllor or the Great Other please don't expect a thesis backed by a great deal of supporting evidence.

To my point:

I believe the great reveal will be that R'hllor and the Great Other don't even exist. I believe they are man's/cotf/others/giants, etc., etc.... creations to explain the magic inherent within the world. The series seems to suggest that true magic is rare but it wasn't always like that. Perhaps magic works similar to the seasons or maybe more accurately the tides. There will be a high tide where it is abundant and a low tide where it is scarce.

The books seem to suggest that Dany's dragons have brought magic back to the world. I'd suggest that perhaps their birth is a symptom of the "changing tide" along with Thoros' resurrections and the magic of the warlocks of Qarth (I think they state their magic returned (became stronger?) with the birth of dragons).

I feel this may fit in better with the world GRRM has created rather than the traditional fantasy god of the past. This theory would also suggest the Drowned God, the Seven and the other gods of ASOIAF are not real either. Well all except the God of Tits and Wine, that would be truly depressing.

[Blazfemur]

To be fair I don't think that's actually what happened. I think he gave her up as his wife ("sacrificed" her), but I think the sword-through-the-heart thing is a misinterpretation. Now, you could argue what kind of culture in Asshai could come up with that interpretation ...

I can see someone sacrificing the "one they love" int he name of R'hllor. Perhaps the guy, eventually felt bad, hearing his love burn and scream at the top of her lungs, so he stabbed her through the heart to put an end to her misery as she was burning.

All that aside, i always believed The Others had a purpose, a reason for their coming. Theyve been wronged, it all begins with The Night's King. Why were all records erased in that library? How come no one knows who he is? Why, as the 13th Lord Commander, are the first 12 also erased from history? Something's not right with the Watch. The Wall itself, was claimed to have been built by Bran the Builder. It's a wall a fucken ICE! I have no doubt he may have constructed the castles and forts on the wall of ice, but to take credit for something that, more than likely, was constructed from an Other? perhaps THE Great Other? It's blasphemy.

It's rumored by Old Nan, that TNK was a Stark. A common theme, was a Stark must always remain in Winterfell. All Starks, should be buried there. He wants to get to Winterfell, but the wall and it's magic are stopping him. No i dont think thats their purpose, but to me that would be a good ending arc for TNK, to be put to rest, in Winterfell's crypts, concluding ASOIAF.

I digress.

I fully believe, The Others, are the GOOD guys, and The Night's Watch, is the tainted secretly evil group, per 14th Lord Commander and then on. Through time, laws and rules put into place would be accepted, and their origins forgotten, especially since all records were eliminated (per sam to jon).

That being said and in regards to the original post, The Great Other, and R'hllor, two separate entities. Do they exist? Maybe, maybe not. Theyre not the same though. But I do believe R'hllor malevolent, while misconstrued The Great Other good. R'hllor is the fallen angel of light Lucifer, worshipped by all that let him in.

We're also forgetting The apparent "Storm God," and the apparent "Drowned God." Way too many monotheistic faiths, for a world of apparent polygamy. I wonder, if each god, is an interpretation of one of the seven, and then taken and made monotheistic. Or perhaps, one of the "old gods," then made monotheistic.

[Blazfemur]

Mel is not a red priestess. She does not remember most of her past and she is most probably controlled by someone through her ruby necklace.

actually, i like this, based on the other information we've read and disclosed regarding trinkets and ingredients needed for "magic."

i always initially thought, from her chapter, she was purchased at a young age, and because of her age, was easily influenced and brainwashed by the red church. basically a cult-victim-turned-evangelist sort of scenario.

[Mithras]

actually, i like this, based on the other information we've read and disclosed regarding trinkets and ingredients needed for "magic."

i always initially thought, from her chapter, she was purchased at a young age, and because of her age, was easily influenced and brainwashed by the red church. basically a cult-victim-turned-evangelist sort of scenario.

I think she was a temple prostitute at some point but now she is more like a shadowbinder.

[league of blooDraven]

I have been on the fence about Melisandre for 2 (main, not only) reasons: 1 is that she thinks Stannis is AA (which to me is ridiculous from the get go) and when she sees the three-eyed-crow and bran in her flames she thinks they work for the great other. If she can't recognize a green seer for what he is, I don't think she's doing her job right.

Most importantly, and possibly the weakest evidence against this theory, was the last scene of season 4 episode 4. Now I know as well as you all that the show hasn't always been faithful ::cough, cough:: but there is the fact that the DB's have visited Martin and got some of the ideas for the next books that they can work into the show. And IF AND ONLY IF the episode on April 27 can be believed, I can't see Mel working for the great other, or that thing being Rhllor. Obviously this is tainted by the show, but I think Rhllor might be all he's cracked up to be, but Mel ain't even close.

I don't think she can see a greenseer for what he is. She goes out of her way a lot to burn weirwoods, which I don't think are either evil or good. Mel's view is warped methinks in the sense that everything to her is good or evil, black or white. If there's one thing GRRM tries to get across in his writing is that all men are GREY, there is good and evil in every man (see Mel and Davos's conversation on the boat on the way to storms end.)

This is why I would say Fire and Ice (R'hllor and the Great Other) aren't really good or evil, just two sides to the same coin of a vast magical power/legacy that men can't tame either way. Men can't be exposed to too much fire (they get consumed by fire magic or just burn) and they can't take too much Ice (they become wights, set to extinguish all life everywhere.

Somewhere in the middle are the old gods (the souls of deceased men), the weirwoods, and man's ties to nature. Weirwoods aren't good or evil, there is love and compassion and hate and vengeance in the Old Gods (we see this in the weirwood faces, some are laughing, some stern, some smiling, some with hateful expressions). But even though all the Weirwoods aren't the same they all have blood in them, they all represent/are literally the life of men. That's why we see that the cave bloodraven is in is warded from Ice monsters by the weirwood trees. That is why Others can't pass the wall "it was made with blood."

I just think in GRRM's story that the battle between good and evil takes place in the hearts and minds of the characters. The "song of ice and fire" is just a backdrop, a situation where mankind tries to stay alive between two ammoral, beyond understanding, vast magical forces.

[Maid So Fair]

Isn't the Great Other a concept exclusive to the Red Faith? The people who believe in the Seven or in the Old Gods certainly don't seem to think that there is some duality of good and evil who are engaged in an eternal struggle for power, probably because it doesn't make sense in their respective religions. I believe that R'hllor (or at least many of his priests as I'm not convinced the god is actually a thing) is not a force for the good in the world but there is no such thing as the Great Other.

[Pib_Juju]

I don't think either god is going to turn out to be "good". I doubt we'll even learn much about them, actually, or even know whether they're real beings or just human creations; personifications of magical forces.

[league of blooDraven]

Isn't the Great Other a concept exclusive to the Red Faith? The people who believe in the Seven or in the Old Gods certainly don't seem to think that there is some duality of good and evil who are engaged in an eternal struggle for power, probably because it doesn't make sense in their respective religions. I believe that R'hllor (or at least many of his priests as I'm not convinced the god is actually a thing) is not a force for the good in the world but there is no such thing as the Great Other.

Practitioners of the weirwood religion, at least the ones 'in the know' seem to be aware of the duality of magic and the fight between ice and fire. My evidence being the oath Jojen and Meera swore to Bran. It seems like the actual facts are kind of lost to the ages, but BR is def trying to fight off the Others in his WW tree home-cave and maybe even the HotU (with their odd colored Weirwoods) and the Asshai/Quaithe were keeping away the fire magic. At the very least I think these groups know what is going on in the big picture. Maybe he never says "Great Other" but Bloodraven does refer to the white walkers and the "heart of winter".