Whent, Dayne and Hightower - Kingsguard Elite? A myth?

[PonchoBear]

Ser Oswell Whent, The Black Bat.

Ser Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning

Ser Gerold Hightower, The Bull.

Reported as 3 of the greatest knights of their time, and the elite of Aerys kingsguard. They were Rhaegar Targaryens trusted champions to protect the woman he started a war for (Lyanna Stark).

They died in combat, protecting the tower against Lord Eddard Stark and 6 of his allies.

That is 3 of the greatest knights of the time period, facing against 7 men. And losing?

To put it into context, Jamie says that Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy outclassed him with a blade, during the Battle of Whispering Wood, Jamie cut down 10 men just to reach Robb Stark before he was stopped, 10 - with battle raging around him, and yes, we are told at least 3 lords sons targeted Jamie specifically, these are men trained by masters at arms in a keep.

To be fair, the 7 who fought were also trained by masters at arms, so it is safe to assume they have as much training as those who fought in the Whispering wood.

These 3 elite warriors lived to serve, protect and do battle in the name of the king, training daily and master of swordsmanship, we are told this specifically about the kingsguard, but moreso on the part of Arthur Dayne, who by rights being better than Jamie (Jamie saw him fight and confirmed this) should have cut down more than 10 men. 11 at the very least :D

How did it come to pass that these 3 fell to 7. Discuss, and by all means, theorycraft.

[PonchoBear]

Ser Oswell Whent, The Black Bat.

Ser Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning

Ser Gerold Hightower, The Bull.

Reported as 3 of the greatest knights of their time, and the elite of Aerys kingsguard. They were Rhaegar Targaryens trusted champions to protect the woman he started a war for (Lyanna Stark).

They died in combat, protecting the tower against Lord Eddard Stark and 6 of his allies.

That is 3 of the greatest knights of the time period, facing against 7 men. And losing?

To put it into context, Jamie says that Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy outclassed him with a blade, during the Battle of Whispering Wood, Jamie cut down 10 men just to reach Robb Stark before he was stopped, 10 - with battle raging around him, and yes, we are told at least 3 lords sons targeted Jamie specifically, these are men trained by masters at arms in a keep.

To be fair, the 7 who fought were also trained by masters at arms, so it is safe to assume they have as much training as those who fought in the Whispering wood.

These 3 elite warriors lived to serve, protect and do battle in the name of the king, training daily and master of swordsmanship, we are told this specifically about the kingsguard, but moreso on the part of Arthur Dayne, who by rights being better than Jamie (Jamie saw him fight and confirmed this) should have cut down more than 10 men. 11 at the very least :D

How did it come to pass that these 3 fell to 7. Discuss, and by all means, theorycraft.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

....Because it was 3 against 7? We don't know much about the other five men that were with Eddard and Howland. They could have been great swordsmen themselves. Even so, only Eddard and Howland came out alive and Eddard almost lost his life that day.

[PonchoBear]

We are told that Dayne is in the very tip top tier of swordsmen, none of the others have ever been mentioned to possess any combat prowess, each of those 3 we are told frequently are great warriors, I am going on the basis that referances to Aerys kingsguard refers to Whent & Hightower.

Any outmatching is difficult, but if Jamie Lannister (A lesser swordsman according to himself, who has gotten brutally honest recently) can kill 10 men, 3 of them lords sons, why cant Dayne fight 7 with 2 great warriors at his side? even if Dayne killed 3 himself, that would have left the other 2 to mop up 2 kills each and still come out smiling.

They were legends. Legends dont die to anything less than other legends, betrayl or giant armies in a mountain pass when fighting against persians at odds of a ridiculously high calibur.

[WinterKing]

A proof of their ability is the fact than only 2 of the 7 survived and Ned only because of Howland Reed(feel free to speculate), and probably Ned engaged Dayne from the beginning, so it was 2 agains 6, and besides all that it has to be considered that battle is VERY different from single combat.

[Valyrian Spoon]

I remember a line from the t.v show Rome.

"Even a lion can be killed by a pack of dogs"

The kings guard at the tower were still seven against three. No matter how good they were, they lost but they still took down five opponents even though outnumbered.

This is also without speculating what Howland Reeds role was in the fight.

Edited for spelling.

[PonchoBear]

Your right, it is easier.

These 3 LEGENDS (Keep this in mind for donkeys sake) could focus, think practically and pick targets with ease, free of the worries that some nameless soldier (couldent actually kill them because heroes cannot die unsongworthy deaths, they ressurect shortly afterwards harder and stronger with more baddassery than ever).. It was a situation they were prepared for, so.

Either they were not legends as stated, and were over-rated B class names with swords in their hands.

Or

Dragons.

Your choice.

[jon stark I]

Well Jaime killed them one by one he wasn't fighting against two at the same time.Those 7 men were fighting for nearly two years without a break they were at their top form while KG were sitting outside.But I still think Ned lived because of both Lyanna and Howland.There was a quote about that day which said something like red sky or something(ı can't remember it right now)..I think after everyone died Arthur,Ned and Howand remained.Arthur wounds Howland and starts to attack Ned then Lyanna sees how his brother is going against this legend and tries to save Ned from the killing blow by attacking Arthur behind him which causes Arthur to attack as a reflex and nearly kills Lyanna.Then Ned kills Arthur by going berserk.

[PonchoBear]

Jamie went 2v1 against 2 lords sons who rushed him, then fought a third afterwards. I always forget their names, Karstarks - but I dont have a forename for you.

Lyanna died in childbirth, this is made clear, even if it isnt said. The bed of blood in question referred to not just a bed covered in blood but a birthing bed, I read it somewhere - not quite sure as to the exact quote either, but point remains.

Arthur Dayne, by any rights should have killed the 5 himself, I wonder if the ToJ happened at all? Is Neds dream a red herring, he never remembers it - he always dreams it, maybe it was something that could have happened, maybe we have Dayne still in hiding. You never know.

[devilrob6]

When Jaime fights Robb Stark he's 15 years older and more experienced, compared to the Battle of Whispering Wood. Older Jaime might be comparable in skills to Hightower or Whent.

Also Arthur Dayne was very close to slaying Ned as well, which would left him one to one with Howland Reed. Dayne would probably the surviving one. It was a close call. And we don't know how that fight went and how Rowland saved Ned. Maybe the outcome just proves that Ned's seven were pretty good fighters as well.

[devilrob6]

When Jaime fights Robb Stark he's 15 years older and more experienced, compared to the Battle of Whispering Wood. Older Jaime might be comparable in skills to Hightower or Whent.

Also Arthur Dayne was very close to slaying Ned as well, which would left him one to one with Howland Reed. Dayne would probably the surviving one. It was a close call. And we don't know how that fight went and how Rowland saved Ned. Maybe the outcome just proves that Ned's seven were pretty good fighters as well.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Yeah, as I said before, Ned's companions may have been the very best the North had to offer. Even with that, it was an incredibly close fight. Also, I believe Hightower was out of his prime by this time.

[Flig]

Because 3 vs. 7 is different than 1 vs. 2, followed by 1 vs. 1, followed by 1 vs. 1, followed by 1 vs. 2, followed by 1 vs. 1.

Plus, Howland had all his Crannogman tricks, which his opponents probably weren't used to/expecting. Plus, the 7 came in on horse, the 3 were on foot.

[jon stark I]

Lyannas death is assumed to be a childbirth death.I don't and won't believe that she went with Rhaegar by her choice.Jon can't be a Targ.(please don't make Jon a Targ.)

TOJ being a red herring is impossible then what happened to the 6 men Ned had with him or ^legendary knights they faced?Training is not the same thing like war.Ths men were fighting a war for 2 years their skills increased incredibly.Karstark boys never had the battle exprience this men survived a war.

[WinterKing]

Double thread?

[WinterKing]

Except that would not be single combat, it would be 1 combat 1X1(Ned with IceX Dayne with Dawn) and 2 combats 3 X 1, and that is much more difficult.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

The Northmen present were likely the bet the North had to offer. They were also on horseback while the kingsguard were on foot. Not to mention Whent and Hightower were getting on a bit. I think Jaime in TWotFKs would have dispatched either of those two eight or nine times out of ten.

[otherbeef]

i'm pretty sure ever single warrior in the series has now been called overrated or undeserving of reputation on these boards

[corbon]

Some basic flaws in this...

Ser Oswell Whent, The Black Bat.

Ser Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning

Ser Gerold Hightower, The Bull.

Reported as 3 of the greatest knights of their time, and the elite of Aerys kingsguard. They were Rhaegar Targaryens trusted champions to protect the woman he started a war for (Lyanna Stark).

Rhaegar didn't start the war, wasn't even involved in it starting.

And they were trusted not as champions, but as his personal companions whom he could count on their loyalty (Hightower is different, a case of circumstance and timing, rather than choice). Which is n no way deriding their skills.

They died in combat, protecting the tower against Lord Eddard Stark and 6 of his allies.

That is 3 of the greatest knights of the time period, facing against 7 men. And losing?

To put it into context, Jamie says that Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy outclassed him with a blade, during the Battle of Whispering Wood, Jamie cut down 10 men just to reach Robb Stark before he was stopped, 10 - with battle raging around him, and yes, we are told at least 3 lords sons targeted Jamie specifically, these are men trained by masters at arms in a keep.

To be fair, the 7 who fought were also trained by masters at arms, so it is safe to assume they have as much training as those who fought in the Whispering wood.

Context failure.

In battle Jaime would have had men tasked to protected him, fighting pretty much in formation, even if he may be at the head of a wedge sort of thing. So pretty much all of Jaime's kills are one on one most likely, not one on several.

And of the 10 men Jaime killed, the three lords sons are inexperienced, almost certainly in their first battle and maybe not even fully grown out, even if classed as men. There is a reason contact sports have U23 grades, and those are elite athletes training their whole life as well, often. The other seven could be anything from veteran knights to raw levies, probably a mix mostly in between.

In the ToJ fight there are only 3 men on one side and more or less unlimited room, which means its able to develop as several distinct fights, 2+ on one, even if all the ones have a back or flank partially covered. The advantages of numbers are much more easily brought to bear here, than in a night time horse back battle.

These 3 elite warriors lived to serve, protect and do battle in the name of the king, training daily and master of swordsmanship, we are told this specifically about the kingsguard, but moreso on the part of Arthur Dayne, who by rights being better than Jamie (Jamie saw him fight and confirmed this) should have cut down more than 10 men. 11 at the very least :D

How did it come to pass that these 3 fell to 7. Discuss, and by all means, theorycraft.

By the ToJ those present with Ned were now hardened veterans of a year-long war (perhaps one exception), experienced in training and fighting together. they probably wuld have creamed a dozen of their 1-year-earlier-selves.

Training and experience tells, vs not haing one or the other. After that, numbers tell, assuming they can be brought to bear.

[StarkDragon]

The Black Bat

The Sword of the Mo(u)rning

The Bull

Great names.

Sounds to me like ASOIAF's Justice league.