Prince of the North Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 So Rhaegar was blameless for kidnapping (eloped with) Lyanna? Because Rhaegar's action was the reason Brandon had to go to KL in the first place because as her brother he had any right to look for her.Stawman Alert! I said it's too simplistic to say "Rhaegar caused the war" when we all know it was more than that. Nowhere did I say he was "blameless". And you're using the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to lay it all at Rhaegar's feet just like I said. No, it took many actions to start the rebellion not just one (unless, of course, you're illogically and unfairly using 20/20 hindsight).There were no way out. The same moment Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard he asked Ned's and Robert's heads and then JA called the banners.There most definitely was "a way out". What if Brandon hadn't immediately demanded that "Rhaegar come out and die!"? What if Mad King Aerys had, instead of arresting Brandon, said something like "I understand your concern, son. Let's put a search party together and get to the bottom of this"? Things could very easily have worked out differently if people had acted differently. Basically, you seem to have no problem with using 20/20 hindsight in this case, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Brandon commited suiside? Seriously?....and that is when I stopped thinking that this was a serious answer and treated it like one.Too bad you have a short attention span. My point was that up until the moment Aerys called for the heads of two completely innocent teenagers, he hadn't done anything wrong from a legal point of view. And yes, we, the readers, know exactly what happened to Brandon, but no one outside of King's Landing knew. To them, the deaths of the two Starks would've been presented the same way I presented them in my previous post.ETA: Corrected typos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Too bad you have a short attention span. My point was that up until the moment Aerys called for the heads of two completely innocent teenagers, he hadn't done anything wrong from a legal point of view. And yes, we, the readers, know exactly what happened to Brandon, but no one outside of King's Landing knew. To them, the deaths of the two Starks would've been presented the same way I presented them in my previous post.ETA: Corrected typos.Its a well known fact that everyone besides the Starks were killed without trials. Can you even name a single character who views Rickards trial as legitimate? Can you even tell me the crime that Rickard had committed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 You would think a place called a "Tower" would give its defenders some sort of high-ground to make an outnumbering force unlikely to prevail even with those odds. I don't get why it seems like they fought out in the open if they were truly interested in protecting Lyanna rather than being truly interested in having a sweet skirmish.What did you expect them to do? Throw their swords and shields at Ned from the window? The 7 wouldve probably just broke down the door and the KG wouldve been fighting in a corner in adition to being outnumbered, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Stawman Alert! I said it's too simplistic to say "Rhaegar caused the war" when we all know it was more than that. Nowhere did I say he was "blameless". And you're using the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to lay it all at Rhaegar's feet just like I said. No, it took many actions to start the rebellion not just one (unless, of course, you're illogically and unfairly using 20/20 hindsight).Ι do believe that Rhaegar’s actions caused the war. Wasn’t he married? Didn’t he knew the problems he would cause kidnapping (eloping with) Lyanna. Didn’t he know that his actions will cause trouble? It’s only logical to think that when you kidnapped (or eloped with) a maiden whose brother is called “The Wild Wolf” and she is betrothed to another Great Lord, that there will be some kind of reactionThere most definitely was "a way out". What if Brandon hadn't immediately demanded that "Rhaegar come out and die!"? What if Mad King Aerys had, instead of arresting Brandon, said something like "I understand your concern, son. Let's put a search party together and get to the bottom of this"? Things could very easily have worked out differently if people had acted differently. Basically, you seem to have no problem with using 20/20 hindsight in this case, that's all. And then we come back to "what if Rhaegar hadn't kidnaped (or eloped with) Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Beric,I like to point to this when people say Ned was a "bad" swordsman. Anyone who says Ned was bad is going further than what Martin said. What George has indicated was that Ned was competent, average, what have you. His particular skill was being a general, not as a swordsman, but it's not like he was awful. He was average for a trained, fighting nobleman in Westeros. That's pretty good, but it's nothing to write home about. So when, say, Bronze Yohn Royce defeated him and Rodrik Cassel at the same time (in Sansa's recollection), that's a sign that Royce is quite good and Ned and Rodrik were stout, capable fighters but nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Ι do believe that Rhaegar’s actions caused the war. Wasn’t he married? Didn’t he knew the problems he would cause kidnapping (eloping with) Lyanna. Didn’t he know that his actions will cause trouble? It’s only logical to think that when you kidnapped (or eloped with) a maiden whose brother is called “The Wild Wolf” and she is betrothed to another Great Lord, that there will be some kind of reactionYes, so you are saying you have no problem blaming Rhaegar for the things that happened subsequent to him disappearing with Lyanna even though he logically had no way of knowing what would happen. Now, if you want to say he was reckless, uncaring, irresponsible I can agree with that (but so were Brandon and Aerys) but to say he should have known what was going to happen and that he's the one to blame goes too far. It's not logical. It took more than just Rhaegar's actions to cause the rebellion.And then we come back to "what if Rhaegar hadn't kidnaped (or eloped with) Lyanna?Yep, more than one person's actions are to blame for starting the rebellion but that's not what you're saying or, at least, that's not what you've said yet. Do you still maintain that Rhaegar is the only one to blame for starting the rebellion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Can you all agree that Rhaegars actions started the chain of events that lead to the war?snipEh, most of the times, people just get a certain idea in their head or see a comment on the forum and just assume that its a fact taken from either the books or an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Yes, so you are saying you have no problem blaming Rhaegar for the things that happened subsequent to him disappearing with Lyanna even though he logically had no way of knowing what would happen. Now, if you want to say he was reckless, uncaring, irresponsible I can agree with that (but so were Brandon and Aerys) but to say he should have known what was going to happen and that he's the one to blame goes too far. It's not logical. It took more than just Rhaegar's actions to cause the rebellion. Only Brandon had a duty to protect his sister. Yes he could do it with another way but if Rhaegar was thinking what he was doing then he wouldn't have to go to KL at the first place,Yep, more than one person's actions are to blame for starting the rebellion but that's not what you're saying or, at least, that's not what you've said yet. Do you still maintain that Rhaegar is the only one to blame for starting the rebellion? No, Aerys was the other one. Rhaegars actions started the chain of events that lead to the war? :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Its a well known fact that everyone besides the Starks were killed without trials. Can you even name a single character who views Rickards trial as legitimate? Can you even tell me the crime that Rickard had committed?From the wiki:"Aerys II had them all imprisoned on charges of conspiring to kill the crown prince and summoned the fathers to answer for the crimes of their sons."Granted, it's a flimsy accusation, but legally, it's enough justification for Aerys' actions.Can you all agree that Rhaegars actions started the chain of events that lead to the war?Yes, I agree, I'm not arguing with that.Jon's Queen Consort, you conveniently fail to respond to my arguments. I take it you agree then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 @TheCrannogDweller As I told before:Brandon commited suiside? Seriously?....and that is when I stopped thinking that this was a serious answer and treated it like one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 @TheCrannogDweller As I told before:Oh, so you're just choosing to ignore the arguments, which don't fit your opinion. Very mature of you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Only Brandon had a duty to protect his sister. Yes he could do it with another way but if Rhaegar was thinking what he was doing then he wouldn't have to go to KL at the first place,Yes, I have no doubt that Brandon felt he had a duty to protect his sister. But he certainly could have gone about it differently. He bears some blame, too. Just like Aerys could have also gone about things differently.No, Aerys was the other one.Ah, so when you said earlier:He [Rhaegar] started the war.What you really meant was that it wasn't only Rhaegar. OK, we certainly agree on that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Oh, so you're just choosing to ignore the arguments, which don't fit your opinion. Very mature of you. :) No, I choose not to argue with someone about something so lets say, wrong in order not to get another warning point.Ah, so when you said earlier:What you really meant was that it wasn't only Rhaegar. OK, we certainly agree on that :) Yes Rhaegar and Aerys. Rhaegar for kidnapping (eloped with) Lyanna and Aerys for killing Brandon and Rickard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brAnthelAstgreenseer Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Well Brandon did commit suicide sort of.Who goes to the royal court and asks for the head of the prince?He wanted to protect his sister but he could have been tactful and if did not want to be ,he should have tried to solve the matter on his own and not enter KL at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 "Aerys II had them all imprisoned on charges of conspiring to kill the crown prince and summoned the fathers to answer for the crimes of their sons."Granted, it's a flimsy accusation, but legally, it's enough justification for Aerys' actions.no its not. since when did people have to pay for their family member's crimes? it was murder no matter which you spin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Brandons choice of words are extreme but also the thing Rhaegar did.Stark family is nothing like the Freys and you know what they did after Robb broke their deal.So Brandon calling Rhaegar to face his dead is even normal according to the things Tywin and Freys did to the ones they were pissed.By kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar shamed House Stark and Starks are not like Lannisters Starks were Kings for 8000 years.There was no way this could resolve without Bloodshed.Either Rhaegar marries Lyanna which starts a war between IT against Baratheons and Dorne or Rhaegar returns Lyanna which starts a war between Baratheons and Starks against IT.What Rhaergar did was stupid even if Lyanna went willingly he had to act like a prince not like a 17 year old.Rhaegar was a father, a husband and the crown prince there is no reason for him to kidnap Lyanna.If he wanted to marry Lyanna he could wait until he defeated his father then he could ask Lyannas hand to marry from Rickard as a normal man would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Oh, so you're just choosing to ignore the arguments, which don't fit your opinion. Very mature of you. :)you made a pretty ridiculous claim. If I was debating someone and they pulled that, I'd probably call them a troll and ignore them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Yes Rhaegar and AerysOK, first, that's a definite change from what you said originally. Second, are you saying Brandon has absolutely no blame for anything that happened?ETA: Also, I see a common problem cropping up in this thread. Namely, judging things happening in a fuedal system by the same criteria we would use now. I'm not sure that get's us very far. As always, context matters and, in this context, threatening the life of the crown prince is punishable by death. Hell, even insulting nobility could be punishable in who knows how many ways? The King's will is law, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Brandons choice of words are extreme but also the thing Rhaegar did.Stark family is nothing like the Freys and you know what they did after Robb broke their deal.So Brandon calling Rhaegar to face his dead is even normal according to the things Tywin and Freys did to the ones they were pissed.By kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar shamed House Stark and Starks are not like Lannisters Starks were Kings for 8000 years.There was no way this could resolve without Bloodshed.Either Rhaegar marries Lyanna which starts a war between IT against Baratheons and Dorne or Rhaegar returns Lyanna which starts a war between Baratheons and Starks against IT.What Rhaergar did was stupid even if Lyanna went willingly he had to act like a prince not like a 17 year old.Rhaegar was a father, a husband and the crown prince there is no reason for him to kidnap Lyanna.If he wanted to marry Lyanna he could wait until he defeated his father then he could ask Lyannas hand to marry from Rickard as a normal man would do. :agree: Finally someone who gets the point.edit:OK, first, that's a definite change from what you said originally. Second, are you saying Brandon has absolutely no blame for anything that happened? Brandon could do better than this yes, but I don't blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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