Whent, Dayne and Hightower - Kingsguard Elite? A myth?

[BericDondarrion]

Good topic. I like to point to this when people say Ned was a "bad" swordsman. Yes, Brandon Stark was better then Ned, but Ned is by no means chopped liver, him and Howland killed the three toughest knights in the realm.

[Artos Stark]

For all we know, Reed could have shot Dayne with a poison arrow. We can speculate unless we know what exactly happened at the ToJ. That being said, I believe GRRM even refers to Dayne as an all time great swordsman.

[OberynBlackfyre]

There is no question that Arthur Dayne was arguably the greatest knight of his time, if not the generation. People put him on par with Aemon the Dragonknight in the sense of revery. The White Bull and Black Bat were both noted as very CAPABLE warriors, but I think the revery for the White Bull is more so bravery and strength than it is overall skill....and I see Whent as being an very decent swordsman, however I would probably put him on par with maybe like Balon Swann or even Arys Oakheart.

Dayne was by the far the fiercest fighter there, period. He was that because he was the most able, but also because he was Rhaegars best friend as well

[Ice Turtle]

How old was Hightower? He could have been even older than Barristan Selmy now.

[therealbando]

Why is it so hard to believe that 7 men (maybe average, but still 7 and on horseback) defeated and killed 3 (even if the best of their time, they were only 3 on foot)? Most of the 3vs7s would end in the 7 beating the hell out of the 3, with maybe only one of the 7 dying, but in this one the 3 almost defeated the 7, leaving only 2 of them alive. Even if Dayne, Hightower and Whent were the best swordsmnen alive at the moment (Dayne probably was, I don`t know about the other 2), they were still 3 vs 7 and on horseback. For me it`s just the other way around how did these 3 manage to kill 5 of the 7, considering that most of us think that Ned took on Dayne from the beginning which would mean that Hightower and Whent each took on 3 opponents at the same time and they managed to kill 5 of them. We don`t know exactly what happened there, we could speculate a lot, but for me it doesn`t seem that unrealistic that Ned and his men defeated Dayne, Hightower and Whent.

[Sansa_Stark]

There is no question that Arthur Dayne was arguably the greatest knight of his time, if not the generation. People put him on par with Aemon the Dragonknight in the sense of revery. The White Bull and Black Bat were both noted as very CAPABLE warriors, but I think the revery for the White Bull is more so bravery and strength than it is overall skill....and I see Whent as being an very decent swordsman, however I would probably put him on par with maybe like Balon Swann or even Arys Oakheart.

Dayne was by the far the fiercest fighter there, period. He was that because he was the most able, but also because he was Rhaegars best friend as well

Dayne=Barristan without Dawn.

And the Kingsguard of AErys was no joke.

All of them are probably AT least top 15 fighters of their time.

[Tony Soprano]

Aerys' Kingsguard, especially Dayne and Hightower are the stuff of legends. They died because they were outnumbered, it's as simple as that. Even so, they made a stand and killed five of the seven that stood against them. That shouldn't be overlooked.

To put it into context, Jamie says that Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy outclassed him with a blade, during the Battle of Whispering Wood, Jamie cut down 10 men just to reach Robb Stark before he was stopped, 10 - with battle raging around him, and yes, we are told at least 3 lords sons targeted Jamie specifically, these are men trained by masters at arms in a keep.

It's not the same. Jaime was the one targeting Robb, not the other way around. Karstark's sons and a lot of other highborn lordlings died protecting Robb, but I don't think they all fought Jaime at the same time. He went through them one by one.

[TheButcherCrow]

There is a quote from Barristan Selmy (as Arstan) when he is on route to Slaver's Bay with Dany (I don't have my books right now so forgive my innacuracy). He basically says that it doesn't matter how good a swordsman a man is, anyone can be beaten on a given day. A slip in the mud, a bit of dirt in the eye or that your opponent is fighting for something (he uses the example of a lady's favour to zing Jorah). I will provide the exact quote later. The essence of this is that, THIS is the world that the ToJ takes place in, it's not Spartacus.

[Nathan the Calm]

I think even in swordfights there is luck involved and Ned says that only for Howland Reed he is still alive. Sounds like they had a good portion of luck to me, even if all of them 7 Northmen were at least decent fighters. And as above mentioned Reed is a crannogman who use poison a lot and I believe he may also used a frog spear and a net which should not be the common way of fighting thus maybe causing problems to the KGmen because they did not now how to fight such weapons.

[Gurkhal]

I always thought that Eddard picked the six best swordsmen under his command for his adventure to the Tower of Joy, and being outnumbered is a real pain.

[eggs]

When was Whent called the Black Bat? Anyways, youre comparing seasoned vets to rookies. Im sure Ned's 7 were tougher than of Robb's honor gaurd.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Reported as 3 of the greatest knights of their time, and the elite of Aerys kingsguard. They were Rhaegar Targaryens trusted champions to protect the woman he started a war for (Lyanna Stark).

They had to defend Rhaegar against the Rebels (and after him the rightful King) because it was their duty even if Rhaegar was mad like his father

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.

Only Arthur was said to be Rhaegar’s friend.

Now, there were 7 against 3 and at the end was The Arthur against Ned and the small crannogman.From Ned’s words

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed”

How I see it, is that HR used some of his powers

he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.

To kill The Arthur.

[Leagon]

It's just how combat works. One man fighting two people at once is almost impossible if everyone involved is trained, even if the lone man completely outclasses the two fighters individually. Hell, even two untrained people could give serious problems to a highly trained person if they coordinate attacks.

Jaime was fighting in a battle, in a formation, with fights going on all around him. It wasn't a duel. There are average men that can kill twenty people in a battle if that's how it pans out. It's more about equipment, tactics and cohesion of the unit than it is about individual skill.

The fact that the Kingsguard took down five men teeters on unrealistic and speaks very highly of their ability.

[eggs]

I always thought that Eddard picked the six best swordsmen under his command for his adventure to the Tower of Joy, and being outnumbered is a real pain.

I think he took the ones who he trusted the most. No way Howland was all that great when he got beat up by 15 year old squires and Glover was just. Brandon's squire

[Dreadwolf]

Context failure.

In battle Jaime would have had men tasked to protected him, fighting pretty much in formation, even if he may be at the head of a wedge sort of thing. So pretty much all of Jaime's kills are one on one most likely, not one on several.

And of the 10 men Jaime killed, the three lords sons are inexperienced, almost certainly in their first battle and maybe not even fully grown out, even if classed as men. There is a reason contact sports have U23 grades, and those are elite athletes training their whole life as well, often. The other seven could be anything from veteran knights to raw levies, probably a mix mostly in between.

In the ToJ fight there are only 3 men on one side and more or less unlimited room, which means its able to develop as several distinct fights, 2+ on one, even if all the ones have a back or flank partially covered. The advantages of numbers are much more easily brought to bear here, than in a night time horse back battle.

By the ToJ those present with Ned were now hardened veterans of a year-long war (perhaps one exception), experienced in training and fighting together. they probably wuld have creamed a dozen of their 1-year-earlier-selves.

Training and experience tells, vs not haing one or the other. After that, numbers tell, assuming they can be brought to bear.

exactly! The writer is quite just on these things. Numbers always matter. One of the best swordsman later in the books - the Hound was almost killed by second or may be third class killers with cheap swords in their hands in that tavern. He was drank of course but I guess he quickly got sober. If Arya did not assist him he would have been dead man still in the tavern.

Legends or not Martin*s description was always very reliable in such details.He did not write westerns for one example. Nor ASOIAF is the Sword of Thruth series - for another..

[eggs]

How I see it, is that HR used some of his powers

To kill The Arthur.

If Howland used magic in front of Ned, doesnt it make it kinda weird that Ned would be a guy who puts no stock in signs? His reaction to the dead direwolf killed by the stag was basically "so what?". He didnt even suspect that the starks recieving the direwolves was magic until Summer saved Bran.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Howland used magic in front of Ned, doesnt it make it kinda weird that Ned would be a guy who puts no stock in signs? His reaction to the dead direwolf killed by the stag was basically "so what?". He didnt even suspect that the starks recieving the direwolves was magic until Summer saved Bran.

True. But I was thinking that Ned didn't knew what really happened. For example HR does his magic, The Arthur falls and can't get up(which wouldn't scream *magic*) and HR kills the Arthur. :dunno:

[Dreadwolf]

If Howland used magic in front of Ned, doesnt it make it kinda weird that Ned would be a guy who puts no stock in signs? His reaction to the dead direwolf killed by the stag was basically "so what?". He didnt even suspect that the starks recieving the direwolves was magic until Summer saved Bran.

If Howland warged [just an example for some efficient distraction] into Artur and then left his body - Ned might have not even understood what happenned. We really do not know why Ned told Bran that Artur would have killed Ned if not for the little cranogman. But It might be not magic at all. Howland might have just cried at a certain point - "Behind you," as a warning or whatever...

As regards the Bran and Summer saving him. I am not sure I can see any magic there.

[eggs]

True. But I was thinking that Ned didn't knew what really happened. For example HR does his magic, The Arthur falls and can't get up(which wouldn't scream *magic*) and HR kills the Arthur. :dunno:

and what would Ned be doing while Howland is casting spells?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

and what would Ned be doing while Howland is casting spells?

He could tried to fight him or was on the ground. After all a whispered word doesn't have to be noticed.

If Howland warged [just an example for some efficient distraction] into Artur and then left his body - Ned might have not even understood what happenned. We really do not know why Ned told Bran that Artur would have killed Ned if not for the little cranogman. But It might be not magic at all. Howland might have just cried at a certain point - "Behind you," as a warning or whatever...

As regards the Bran and Summer saving him. I am not sure I can see any magic there.

I 've never thought about warging. Great! :thumbsup: