Did Stannis wanted Robert Baratheon to Die?

[Draco_Dracul]

That would be a real Ned Stark move and we know how that went for Ned.

Stannis was in far better position than Ned ever was, including the fact that he had the opportunity to beat Robert to Winterfell and confront the golden twins on ground less favorable to them.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Yeah the idea that he doesn't self criticize is bullshit of the highest order.

Yea, "BRAH" it's crazy that this kind of patently false accusation is still made.

[Antler's Fury]

I find unnerving Stannis sense of entitlement.

He repeats often that "Storm's End was due to him" "because he did his duty defending it".

Well, by his meter, doing your duty is not to be praised (Ned coming to his rescue at Storm's End).

AND as a second son he had not any right to any part of his family heirship.

He was lucky to recieve Dragonstone, a seat in the Council and the lead of the fleet. Three of the ten to fifteen more honourable positions in the Realms. And he is completely not gratefull to his brother for giving them to him.

The part that was "due" to him, would have been a hall by the sea to live in decor, if he hadn't had any merits in his brother's service.

For those merits he was enormously premiated.

But he chose to ignore them, because he was "entitled to more". I don't want to be king, I just AM the king.

Well, you wanted to be the Hand, pal, and you found that becoming the founder of a new dinasty of a Great Seat of the Kingdom and commanding the whole of a contintent's fleets wasn't enough for you.

That's ambition, that's sense of self entitlement, that hipocrisy when you say around loud that you are not ambitious.

Stannis' problem wasn't that he didn't get Storm's End but that Renly did. He never said people should not be praised or rewarded for doing their duty. In fact that's exactly what he wants: gratitude and a proper reward for risking his life for Robert's sake. And then Robert goes and gives Storm's End to Renly, who did nothing to deserve it. Nor did he ever say he wasn't ambitious.

^^^ :agree: NAILED it! :agree: ^^^

NAILED it! That's Stannis' personality in a nutshell (or maybe nutcase would be the more accurate term.)

More to the point, the books consistently portray Stannis not just as someone who was unliked, but as someone who was unlikable because of all these traits. He's not a man who spent his life in lonely isolation because no one ever did him a good turn or reached out to him, but because he rejected all those (including Ned, "No friend of mine" Stark) who did anything for him or tried to befriend him. He always wanted more, had to exact his price, and was an ingrate to all who gave him anything, including his own brothers and Cressen, who to all accounts did all he could to be Stannis' surrogate father.

If anything it's the other way around. Stannis is unhappy and withdrawn because despite all that he does for other people, they reject him. Stannis' holding Storm's End makes it possible for Robert to be king but does Robert give him Storm's End? Does he even thank him? No, he gives the castle to Renly, who didn't do anything to earn it. Stannis saves Robert's kingdom again in the face of the Greyjoy Rebellion and helps Jon Arryn do the actual governing yet he gets no appreciation, let alone reward, from Robert for doing that. And when it comes time to take sides, the smallfolk all love Renly, even though it's Stannis who helped save them from the tyranny of Aerys and Balon. Renly has no problem casually skipping Stannis in the line of succession, and is even okay with killing Stannis should Stannis resist his usurpation, even though it was Stannis who kept the child Renly alive during the seige of Storm's End. Stannis has never wanted anything more than his due; it's just that his myopic, self-absorbed siblings refused to give it to him, and are too self-absorbed to care about what's he's done for them.

Stannis was in far better position than Ned ever was, including the fact that he had the opportunity to beat Robert to Winterfell and confront the golden twins on ground less favorable to them.

Confront them with a suspiciously self-serving accusation? With Jon Arryn dead, Stannis was in the same position he was before Arryn died. He had evidence, but not Robert's trust, which was more important. Ned, on the other hand, was always in a better position because Robert would believe him.

[GallowsKnight]

No he did not.

1. He felt he couldn't tell Robert initially because he had no evidence and it would have been self-serving. So he tells Jon Arryn.

2. Jon Arryn dies. Stannis suspects this is because of he investigation. It's common knowledge he and Jon were visiting brothels. He must think his life in danger. Where as Robert is still safe as he is ignorant. The Lannister haven't killed him in the last ~14years. So he flees to Dragonstone.

3. On Dragonstone he doesn't just wait, he starts gathering swords and men. Preparing for the upcoming conflict he must feel is inevitable.

4. Robert names Jaime Lannister Warden of the East and Ned Stark Hand of King. Both things that if given to Stannis, might convince him Robert trusts him enough to believe his theories (remember he doesn't have the big tome)

5. Ned Stark arrives in Kingslanding. Stannis doesn't know he's investigating Jon Arryn's murder. Stannis has no idea of Lysa's letter, the suspicious nature of Bran's fall and the Lannister Catspaw. He doesn't know that Ned would find his theories convincing. For all Stannis knows Ned would tell Robert immediately, thus putting Stannis, Ned and Robert's lives in danger. And as we see with Ned's confrontation of Cersei, it's not far from the truth.

Does anyone think Stannis actually intended to take the throne with his measly five thousand? Rather he must have thought he'd merged those troops with Robert's if war did occur or use them to secure the capitol in one fell swoop.

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

I don't think so. Robert was, after all, his brother. He didn't have any proof that Cersei's children were bastards born from incest, and that's one hell of an accusation. Now imagine Stannis showing up and being like "hey so btw your kids are actually jaime's because they like to fuck lol but i don't have any proof it's just my word against the queen's which is also like my word against all the lannisters oopsie"

[Draco_Dracul]

The fact that he is gathering sword instead of evidence says to me he has his priorities wrong. Trying to take the crown from Joffery rather preventing him from ever getting it the first place puts him in a worse position, even Ned knew that. Ned was wrong headed in his attempted to do it, but at least he realized it. The realm would be in a far better place had Stannis either taken steps to establish his position as heir prior to Robert's death or let his claim lie. It would have also been better if had let Renly take the throne and killed him then.

[Minsc]

Stannis' problem wasn't that he didn't get Storm's End but that Renly did. He never said people should not be praised or rewarded for doing their duty. In fact that's exactly what he wants: gratitude and a proper reward for risking his life for Robert's sake. And then Robert goes and gives Storm's End to Renly, who did nothing to deserve it. Nor did he ever say he wasn't ambitious.

Why should Stannis be concerned about what Robert wants to do with his property? Furthermore, he did receive a proper reward only Stannis would rather complain then be grateful for what he himself received.

If anything it's the other way around. Stannis is unhappy and withdrawn because despite all that he does for other people, they reject him. Stannis' holding Storm's End makes it possible for Robert to be king but does Robert give him Storm's End? Does he even thank him? No, he gives the castle to Renly, who didn't do anything to earn it. Stannis saves Robert's kingdom again in the face of the Greyjoy Rebellion and helps Jon Arryn do the actual governing yet he gets no appreciation, let alone reward, from Robert for doing that. And when it comes time to take sides, the smallfolk all love Renly, even though it's Stannis who helped save them from the tyranny of Aerys and Balon. Renly has no problem casually skipping Stannis in the line of succession, and is even okay with killing Stannis should Stannis resist his usurpation, even though it was Stannis who kept the child Renly alive during the seige of Storm's End. Stannis has never wanted anything more than his due; it's just that his myopic, self-absorbed siblings refused to give it to him, and are too self-absorbed to care about what's he's done for them.

Stop this bull about how Stannis saved Robert from Aerys and Balon, at most he played a role but he was hardly a defining character. Furthermore, despite your complaints Robert did generously reward Stannis by giving Dragonstone and a seat on the Small Council. Finally, Stannis is the one who declared war against Renly.

[Draco_Dracul]

Right, there was absolutely no reason that Robert shouldn't have just incorporated the Stormlands into the Crownlands and kept Storm's End as emergency holdfast for the royal family.

[Antler's Fury]

Why should Stannis be concerned about what Robert wants to do with his property?

Because what Robert does with his property affects the realm.

Furthermore, he did receive a proper reward only Stannis would rather complain then be grateful for what he himself received.

No, he didn't. There's really no reason to give Renly Storm's End instead of Stannis.

Stop this bull about how Stannis saved Robert from Aerys and Balon, at most he played a role but he was hardly a defining character.

Do try and read my posts before you respond to them. I said he helped save the realm from Aerys and Balon which is true.

Furthermore, despite your complaints Robert did generously reward Stannis by giving Dragonstone and a seat on the Small Council.

If he was generous he'd have given Stannis Storm's End, since Stannis risked his life for it, instead of Renly, who did nothing.

Finally, Stannis is the one who declared war against Renly.

Because Renly was a usurper who was denying Stannis his rights, yes.

[Sansa_Stark]

He didn't have to give Dragonstone to Stannis at all. He could have given both SE and DS to sons and left Stannis with?

Stannis was given quite a bit. Compare that to younger brother Kevan who holds no lands.

[Minsc]

Because what Robert does with his property affects the realm.

No, he didn't. There's really no reason to give Renly Storm's End instead of Stannis.

Giving Renly Storm's End has no negative effect on the realm thus Stannis shouldn't be concerned about it.

Yes there is, Robert wanted to generously reward both of his brothers and that meant giving Renly Storm's End and Stannis Dragonstone as was Robert's full right.

Do try and read my posts before you respond to them. I said he helped save the realm from Aerys and Balon which is true.

Your post directly talks about Stannis making it possible for Robert to be king or Stannis saving the realm in the Greyjoy Rebellion thus giving the false impression that Stannis was some absolute defining player.

If he was generous he'd have given Stannis Storm's End, since Stannis risked his life for it, instead of Renly, who did nothing.

Storm's End was Robert to give to whoever he wants, similarly Dragonstone. Meaning that Robert had no obligation to give Stannis anything thus either one is a representation of generosity.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

He didn't have to give Dragonstone to Stannis at all. He could have given both SE and DS to sons and left Stannis with?

Stannis was given quite a bit. Compare that to younger brother Kevan who owns no lands.

He conquered DragonStone. It didn't matter if Robert didn't plan to give it to him. It was his. By the same law Aegon, Robert were proclaimed Kings.

Ned says:

And while Robert had been riding north to Winterfell, Stannis had removed himself to Dragonstone, the Targaryen island fastness he had conquered in his brother's name.

[Sansa_Stark]

He conquered DragonStone. It didn't matter if Robert didn't plan to give it to him. It was his. By the same law Aegon, Robert were proclaimed Kings.

Ned says:

Here is the SSM.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone. It was not his by conquest.

He could have just given it to sons.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Here is the SSM.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone. It was not his by conquest.

He could have just given it to sons.

But he didn't right?

And what makes you think he wouldn't have given DS to Tommen when he came of age? At that time they needed some one hard man to rule over Targ loyalists. He did his DUTY and Robert could've easily given it tommen if need be. We will never know.

[Sansa_Stark]

But he didn't right?

The SSM implies that Robert had a choice to give DS so it wasn't Stannis' by rights.

And if it was, why are you complaining about him not give SE because he didn't conquer it.

[GallowsKnight]

He didn't have to give Dragonstone to Stannis at all. He could have given both SE and DS to sons and left Stannis with?

Stannis was given quite a bit. Compare that to younger brother Kevan who holds no lands.

Yes he didn't have to. There was no obligation. Robert could have keep both.

But Stannis believes a King should be open-handed with those who serve him well. He makes Davos hand of the King and Lord of the Rainwood. He's agreeable with Massey marrying Asha if he succeeds in Bravos. He thinks about giving his followers lands in the North (a bad idea, but generous).

If Stannis hadn't held Storm's End for Robert, the rebellion may have been lost. The Tyrell forces would have no excuse to remain inactive and had Stannis even bent the knee he could have organised loyalist Stormlords against Robert. The Trident may have gone differently with another 10k men on Rhaegars side.

Then he destroyed the Ironfleet. He played a vital role in shattering the Ironborn and keeping Robert's Seven Kingdoms united.

Renly on the other hand has seemingly done nothing for Robert's regime.

[Minsc]

And what makes you think he wouldn't have given DS to Tommen when he came of age? At that time they needed some one hard man to rule over Targ loyalists. He did his DUTY and Robert could've easily given it tommen if need be. We will never know.

And how do you know that Robert wouldn't have given Myrcella Storm's End? Thus, further diminishing Stannis's complaint in how that means Robert was just planning to give one of his children Storm's End.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

The SSM implies that Robert had a choice to give DS so it wasn't Stannis' by rights.

And if it was, why are you complaining about him not give SE because he didn't conquer it.

Cause he did the hard work. Held the Storm's End for a year, with nothing but on rats and boots. You cannot say he didn't deserve Storm's End.

[Sansa_Stark]

Cause he did the hard work. Held the Storm's End for a year, with nothing but on rats and boots. You cannot say he didn't deserve Storm's End.

Sure I can.

If Robert did not take up being king and still won the rebellion, Storm's End would have gone to a son of his.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Sure I can.

If Robert did not take up being king and still won the rebellion, Storm's End would have gone to a son of his.

What? That is totally different scenario. If Robert wasn't the King then yes it would have rightfully gone to his children, but the point is HE IS THE KING.