Did Stannis wanted Robert Baratheon to Die?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I believe that in his own way Stannis loved Robert. So I don't believe that he wanted him dead.

"I loved my brother," he[Jon] said. "And I mine."[stannis]

[JonathanTheBold]

Thing is, Renly claims to be usurping Joffrey, not Stannis. If Stannis never crowns himself, there is no succession issue.

And even if Stannis has to be put aside, what's so bad with joining the Watch then? It's a dutiful fate, and would bring great service to the Realm, and Stannis claims to be all about duty.

No navies he still a claim actually a superior claim that his children would inherit make stanis and his descendants a serious threat

[JonathanTheBold]

Thing is, Renly claims to be usurping Joffrey, not Stannis. If Stannis never crowns himself, there is no succession issue.

And even if Stannis has to be put aside, what's so bad with joining the Watch then? It's a dutiful fate, and would bring great service to the Realm, and Stannis claims to be all about duty.

No he still a claim actually a superior claim that his children would inherit make stanis and his descendants a serious threat. Why would a lord in good standing with a claim to throne give it up for the nights watch

[Sullen]

Renly is usurping everyone in front of him in the line.

A king can nominate is own council. Was Joffrey threatening to strip Renly of SE? Nope. Renly wanted the throne and so did the Tyrell's. When Robert's took power, the Baratheons took over, and that benefited Renly. But know, there's a new King and he wants someone else, how dares he to remove some of Renly's power! Rebellion!

Renly wanted power, so much that he offers to help Ned in taking over. But when Ned refuses to share power with Renly and deliver the Crown to Stannis, Renly bolted. Just like LF.

The reason Renly fled is because Ned refused to act on the moment and thus fucked both of them over, not because Ned refused to share power with it.

Public perception toughed that Rhaegar would crush Robert. Most don't think LF and Varys are that powerful, and yet...

Renly was trying to usurp out of greed and he would set the precedent for continuous usurpations and civil war.

And public perception is what keeps Tommen and Joffrey on the Throne, it is I presume what will give power to fAegon in Westeros (Hell, it's givesf Aegon the support of the Golden Company and his very claim for kingship), and it's what resulted in turning Jaime into an angsty douchebag.

Perceptions are everything, as Varys himself says.

If Stannis is seen by everyone as usurping out of greed, then he'll be remembered for usurping out of greed, and would, as you say, set the precedent for continuous war and usurpations. From the point of view of most people, Renly was simply fighting back the Lannisters, he was fighting a rightful and dutiful cause.

[Antler's Fury]

If Stannis is seen by everyone as usurping out of greed, then he'll be remembered for usurping out of greed, and would, as you say, set the precedent for continuous war and usurpations. From the point of view of most people, Renly was simply fighting back the Lannisters, he was fighting a rightful and dutiful cause from the point of view of the people.

From the point of view of most people, Renly was usurping the crown from Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, and Stannis. From the point of view of most people, Stannis was also usurping the crown from Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. At the time they were made, both claims would be seen as usurpation, but Stannis' seen as slightly better due to his being one step ahead of Renly in the line of succession. The difference is that Stannis claims that he is in fact the true heir of Robert because the three kids were not Robert's kids. Renly was doing no such thing. If Stannis won, he would be remembered as the rightful king to took the throne back from Lannister theives. If Renly won, he'd be remembered as a usurper who took the crown ahead of his nephews, neice, and brother, simply because he could. Stannis had an obligation to fight for his crown, as Robert's true heir. Renly had no obligation to crown himself, only to fight on his brother's behalf.

[Sullen]

From the point of view of most people, Renly was usurping the crown from Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, and Stannis. From the point of view of most people, Stannis was also usurping the crown from Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. At the time they were made, both claims would be seen as usurpation, but Stannis' seen as slightly better due to his being one step ahead of Renly in the line of succession. The difference is that Stannis claims that he is in fact the true heir of Robert because the three kids were not Robert's kids. Renly was doing no such thing. If Stannis won, he would be remembered as the rightful king to took the throne back from Lannister theives. If Renly won, he'd be remembered as a usurper who took the crown ahead of his nephews, neice, and brother, simply because he could. Stannis had an obligation to fight for his crown, as Robert's true heir. Renly had no obligation to crown himself, only to fight on his brother's behalf.

People didn't see Stannis as better, he's pretty much the King with the worst PR in the series.

Renly was seen as a hero by his followers and by the smallfolk. Stannis was seen as a messiah by a small sect and as a greedy usurping heretic by the rest.

[Antler's Fury]

People didn't see Stannis as better, he's pretty much the King with the worst PR in the series.

So? He had an obligation, as Robert's heir to claim the crown. Renly had an obligation to serve Stannis. Stannis did his job, Renly did not.

Renly was seen as a hero by his followers and by the smallfolk.

...and a usurper everywhere outside the Reach and Stormlands.

Stannis was seen as a messiah by a small sect and as a greedy usurping heretic by the rest.

Renly and Stannis were both seen as heros by their followers, and usurpers by eveyone else. The difference is that Stannis was actually not a usurper, so his claiming the crown made sense, while Renly was indeed a usurper, so his claiming the crown created unnecessary conflict. Renly's being loved by the small folk doesn't mean much. The smallfolk loved Aerys when he came to power, and some even thought of him with nostalgia during the War of Five Kings. Heck, the small folk loved Joffrey so much that they'd rip Tyrion to pieces for "murdering" him, even though it was Joffrey who started the war that starved them, and Joffrey who shot at them and told them to eat each other. They hated Tyion despite the fact that he did his best to feed them, protect them from Stannis, and cleanse the court of corrupt idiots like Pycelle and Janos Slynt. Instead, they demonize him and view Pycelle and Slynt as victims. The smallfolk are so retarded that they loved Marg for bringing them food, even though it was the Reach that blockaded KL in the first place. So, Stannis' fighting despite not being particularly loved makes sense. The smallfolk's love is fickle and often nonsensical.

[Djinn]

The reason Renly fled is because Ned refused to act on the moment and thus fucked both of them over, not because Ned refused to share power with it.

And public perception is what keeps Tommen and Joffrey on the Throne, it is I presume what will give power to fAegon in Westeros (Hell, it's givesf Aegon the support of the Golden Company and his very claim for kingship), and it's what resulted in turning Jaime into an angsty douchebag.

Perceptions are everything, as Varys himself says.

If Stannis is seen by everyone as usurping out of greed, then he'll be remembered for usurping out of greed, and would, as you say, set the precedent for continuous war and usurpations. From the point of view of most people, Renly was simply fighting back the Lannisters, he was fighting a rightful and dutiful cause.

But why would Renly flee from a nephew that didn't declared any intention of striking against him? Did Joffrey threaten Balon, Doran, Mace or Lysa? No, Renly could get 100 men to support Ned, but because Ned didn't want to arrest his nephew, he runned off. Renly didn't went to SE to gather a army and marched on KL, he went to Highgarden to negotiate for mace's support.

So if public perception is all that matter, as you say, Joffrey should be King and Renly should forsake his claim and join the Night's Watch. Funny how Stannis must do this for Renly, but Renly can't do it for anyone else.

Stannis isn't seem as usurping out of greed. That's the Lannisters spin on the situation. Stannis letter is very clear on his reason to wage war on the Lannisters. And who are these ''most people'' that see Renly as fighting for a rightful cause? The Tyrell's that ally with the Lannisters? The Northmen/Rivermen and Ironborn that fight for secession? The Vale and Dorne that declare for nobody? Or the Stormlords that follow whatever Baratheon is close by?

[Lord Varys]

Actually, King Joffrey did threaten to declare all great lords traitors who do not come to King's Landing to do him homage (i.e. his paternal uncles, the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Tyrells, and Martells). Reread AGoT.

As to Renly's claim and popularity: Everybody knew his claim was bad, including the lords who followed him. Especially the ambitious guys in the Reach, but also his own Stormlords. But they could not openly oppose him since they were either his direct bannermen, or sworn to Highgarden. And Mace was as determined to crown Renly as was Renly to seize the throne. We later learn that Renly did not actually have the full backing of the Reach. The Hightowers apparently stayed out of the whole thing. Renly claimed that they were on his side, but that was not exactly the case. And Cersei successfully forced Paxter to stay out of the war as well. She had his twin sons as hostages. The fact that Renly and Loras failed to take the Redwyne twins with them when they left the city also indicates that this whole thing was not planned well.

Renly was popular with the smallfolk in KL, but that does not mean that all the smallfolk in all the Realm liked Renly.

[Tetrarch42]

Stannis definitely didn't want Robert dead. Stannis never liked Robert, but he fought his battles and ruled his kingdom and almost starved to death on his command.

And he has a legitimate grievance against Robert for eschewing his service and loyalty over and over, but as other have mentioned, Stannis did love his brother.

[Djinn]

Actually, King Joffrey did threaten to declare all great lords traitors who do not come to King's Landing to do him homage (i.e. his paternal uncles, the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Tyrells, and Martells). Reread AGoT.

Renly was popular with the smallfolk in KL, but that does not mean that all the smallfolk in all the Realm liked Renly.

But why did Renly flee before Joffrey crowning? He wasn't part of the group that knew about Cersei children, he didn't threaten Joffrey. Until Renly declared himself King, there was no reason for Joffrey to think that they were enemies. So why? A newly cowned King demanding homage is hardly unexpected or unlikely. Lysa and Doran never payed homage and yet, were not declared traitors.

[Draco_Dracul]

But why did Renly flee before Joffrey crowning? He wasn't part of the group that knew about Cersei children, he didn't threaten Joffrey. Until Renly declared himself King, there was no reason for Joffrey to think that they were enemies. So why? A newly cowned King demanding homage is hardly unexpected or unlikely. Lysa and Doran never payed homage and yet, were not declared traitors.

He was known to oppose the heavy Lannister presence in court up to and including a plan to have Cersei removed as queen?

[Djinn]

He was known to oppose the heavy Lannister presence in court up to and including a plan to have Cersei removed as queen?

Could you indicate were this is mentioned. He didn't ''had a plan to have Cersei removed'' he had a plan to replace Cersei for Margaery. The first is a move that simple opposses the Lannisters the second is a move to benefit the Tyrell's. Different things. He was Master of Laws, but never replaces Slyntor, speaks against Pycelle or Ilyn or Jaime or argues for Robert to havenon lannister squires or not get more money from CR. Please indicate a action of Renly that doesn't benefit himself or his lover's family?

[Gurkhal]

I know that I come late to the party, but I can't for a moment think that Stannis would want Robert dead. He mourned Renly to a significent degree when Renly was actively raising and army and planning to use that army to kill him. Stannis is a family-man like few others.

[( Bloodraven )]

He was known to oppose the heavy Lannister presence in court up to and including a plan to have Cersei removed as queen?

Known by who? Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei barely spared a thought for Renly in their POVs. If he was known to be an anti-Lannister they wouldve remembered him bitterly atleast, not just things like "he wouldve been the best dressed king, and thats about it". It seems to me that the Lannisters werent worried about him one bit.

[mormont]

Actually, King Joffrey did threaten to declare all great lords traitors who do not come to King's Landing to do him homage (i.e. his paternal uncles, the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Tyrells, and Martells). Reread AGoT.

As to Renly's claim and popularity: Everybody knew his claim was bad, including the lords who followed him. Especially the ambitious guys in the Reach, but also his own Stormlords. But they could not openly oppose him since they were either his direct bannermen, or sworn to Highgarden.

Certainly they could have opposed him. Every one of them swore an oath to Robert, after all, and Joffrey was his heir: if their oath to Renly conflicted with that, they could freely choose to honour their oath to the throne. It's just not the case that Renly's bannermen had no choice.

More to the point, there's not the slightest indication that any of them harboured any desire to oppose him, secretly or openly. The above quote appears to be trying to imply that many of Renly's bannermen were reluctant backers of his claim. That's pure invention, without any textual support at all. The Redwynes were blackmailed: the Hightowers personally stayed home, but there are Hightower men in Mace's host.

The fact that Renly and Loras failed to take the Redwyne twins with them when they left the city also indicates that this whole thing was not planned well.

Well, of course it wasn't planned well. Renly fled, after all. Renly's plan was never to seize the throne for himself: it was firstly, to make Margaery Queen and secondly, to seize Joffrey and rule through him (itself a last-minute reaction to Robert's wounding). When both of those fell through and he realised he was in danger, he had to evacuate unexpectedly. He didn't have time to gather up potential hostages.

[Joant9922]

Guys and Gals:

Listen, I love Stannis, "Stannis the Man-is", he is one of my favorite characters. Very complex. So complex that I don't think he even knows himself or his own motivations very well.

But let's not whitewash him. Stannis is grayer than what people here are making him out to be. Like what Elio said in one of the videos, Stannis flees to Dragonstone and just sits there, and waits, and waits, and does NOTHING to try to warn Robert. He could have sent a raven to Ned Stark in Winterfell. When Ned was in King's Landing, he could have sent an envoy, someone he trusted, like Davos, to personally go to King's Landing, request an audience with Ned Stark, and tell him what he knew. He could have anonymously send all the ravens all over Westeros, to start up the rumors, to get people talking until the rumors reached Robert's ears and piqued his curiosity. He could have answered Ned's summons and said something like: "I won't go to KL, for personal reasons, but I would like to have a meeting with you here in Dragonstone". Maybe he could have tried other things that are not even occurring to me right now. But he didn't. He didn't try anything at all. I don't think he wanted his brother dead, but he washed his hands off the whole situation and was already thinking ahead.

And that is what makes this series so interesting. The depths of the characters. Stannis is a righteous man, a just man, but even he is a little bit of a hypocrite. Make no mistake about it, he WANTS the Iron Throne.

[Antler's Fury]

But let's not whitewash him. Stannis is grayer than what people here are making him out to be. Like what Elio said in one of the videos, Stannis flees to Dragonstone and just sits there, and waits, and waits, and does NOTHING to try to warn Robert. He could have sent a raven to Ned Stark in Winterfell.

But he had no evidence that Arryn was murdered, let alone that his accusations of incest were true. If Stannis had no reason to think Robert would believe him, he had just as much of a reason to distrust Ned, who he barely knows.

When Ned was in King's Landing, he could have sent an envoy, someone he trusted, like Davos, to personally go to King's Landing, request an audience with Ned Stark, and tell him what he knew.

Davos didn't think much of the words of Jorah Mormont, the slaver. Would he have given any consideration to a smuggler?

He could have anonymously send all the ravens all over Westeros, to start up the rumors, to get people talking until the rumors reached Robert's ears and piqued his curiosity.

Robert had a habit ignoring hard truths he did not wish to hear. He needed to be hit over the head with this information. Cuckolding is not something that a man of Robert's sexual accomplishment is going to find easy to swallow.

He could have answered Ned's summons and said something like: "I won't go to KL, for personal reasons, but I would like to have a meeting with you here in Dragonstone".

But did he even get Ned's letter before Robert and Ned died?

And that is what makes this series so interesting. The depths of the characters. Stannis is a righteous man, a just man, but even he is a little bit of a hypocrite. Make no mistake about it, he WANTS the Iron Throne.

But if he wanted to steal the throne from Robert, why tell Jon Arryn in the first place? Why not just find out the truth for himself, then go to Dragonstone? If Stannis wanted to steal the throne from Robert, he didn't seem to have much of a plan. He didn't try to cultivate allies aside from his 5000 men and was fighting an uphill battle from the beginning. Stannis is like an unappreciated version of Kevan Lannister; he's capable, but won't take powe unless it falls to him to do so.

[mormont]

But he had no evidence that Arryn was murdered, let alone that his accusations of incest were true.

He had enough evidence to convince Jon Arryn.

They knew of Robert's bastards, and Stannis could surely have tried to get hold of a copy of Maester Malloreon's book, or he could have advised Ned to do so if he doubted Stannis' word. He could have tried. He chose not to.

If Stannis had no reason to think Robert would believe him, he had just as much of a reason to distrust Ned, who he barely knows.

Admittedly. But Stannis certainly knows that Robert trusts Ned.

Davos didn't think much of the words of Jorah Mormont, the slaver. Would he have given any consideration to a smuggler?

Assuming you mean 'Ned didn't think': Davos and Jorah are somewhat different. Davos is a former smuggler, one who has paid the price for his crime, and is now a knight of admittedly low social standing but good character. Besides, it's not Davos' word he's being asked to accept - Davos is the messenger, not the author.

Robert had a habit ignoring hard truths he did not wish to hear. He needed to be hit over the head with this information. Cuckolding is not something that a man of Robert's sexual accomplishment is going to find easy to swallow.

Undeniably true and probably Stannis' best defence.

But did he even get Ned's letter before Robert and Ned died?

No.

But if he wanted to steal the throne from Robert, why tell Jon Arryn in the first place?

Who even suggested that he wanted to steal the throne from Robert? Wanting the throne for himself after Robert's death and wanting to steal it from Robert while he was alive are two totally, even wildly, different things. You're beating up a straw man here.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I am a big Stannis fan and want him to win the throne but I do not like his remarks about Ned.Whenever he gets a chance he bashes Ned...when he talks to Jon, when he tells Asha he can't spare Theon because he murdered the mountain clans "precious Ned's sons" etc. Ned was a better man then Stannis ever could be.I really like Stannis but he needs to show more respect to Ned, who DIED because he supported Stannis as the rightful ruler instead of going along with Joffrey and being Lord Protector of the realm for 4 years.Part of me wishes Ned took Littlefinger up on his plan, support Joffrey, be lord protector for 4 years until Joffrey is 16 and who knows, maybe he could change Joffrey into a real and honorable man/king.

Going to have to stop you right there! Ned swore before the realm that Joff was king and that he acknowledged that. Joff, however, decided to kill him anyway, instead of sending him to the wall.