Did Stannis wanted Robert Baratheon to Die?

[Penguin king]

No, he didn't wanted Robbert dead.

Not 15 years ago maybe, but Robert gave Stannis a lot of slights in 15 years. He passed over Stannis for Storm's End, and landed him with Dragonstone instead. He defiled Stannis's marriage bed with his wife's own cousin. He gave the position of Hand to Ned instead of him, and all the while he went from warrior king to drunken letcher. Is there no chance that Stannis's opinion of his King might have heavily degraded in that time?

Also, he certainly put honor above blood when it came to Renly....

[mcb]

Littlefinger demonstrably lied though, or at least changed his mind quite drastically.

Did he? We only have numerous facts to support that theory. OTOH, there's Littlefinger's promise to Ned, which kinda contradicts them. How are we to know that Littlefinger lies and facts don't, not the other way around?

It's a much simpler case than Stannis's attitude towards the Iron Throne over the course of 5+ books.

I haven't seen anything complicated in Stannis' attitude towards the throne. Not since the prologue of ACOK and the first read. He craved it badly then, he still does so. The song he sings may change, his hunger for the crown does not.

People can do things they don't really want to do, just because they think it's the right thing to do. Don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that this is what motivates Stannis.

It's not "beyond the realm of possibility", no. But if someone fights tooth and nail for something, against prevailing odds, chances are he fights for something he wants. It's quite more probable than the opposite.

[Associate Maester]

Not 15 years ago maybe, but Robert gave Stannis a lot of slights in 15 years. He passed over Stannis for Storm's End, and landed him with Dragonstone instead. He defiled Stannis's marriage bed with his wife's own cousin. He gave the position of Hand to Ned instead of him, and all the while he went from warrior king to drunken letcher. Is there no chance that Stannis's opinion of his King might have heavily degraded in that time?

Also, he certainly put honor above blood when it came to Renly....

Stannis has never claimed to be honorable. He specifically says he gave up honor when he chose Robert over Aerys.

[StannisandDaeny]

Good job ignoring / not understanding my entire post, Penguin. I'll break this down for you to make it simple.

1. 'Stannis doesn't want the Crown' -> this is not the same thing as 'Stannis plotted to have his brother murdered so he could be King' or 'Stannis hates pursuing the Crown'. You clearly, entirely don't understand the character of Stannis. In his perception, he is the King (and he is), whether he wants it or not is irrelevant, also to himself. He sees it as his duty to the realm to be King, and do what is expected of him as a King. He may not want to be King per se, but he wants to fulfill his duty, and it just so happens that his current duty to live up to is being King and fulfilling the duties of a king, like defending the Wall while everyone else doesn't even want to commit 1 percent of their strength to it. By stepping aside, he would be forsaking his duty as King, and Stannis is all about duty. There is also no good reason, not one, that he would not be King.

don't pretend he only decided to be king after Renly threatened him.

I never said that. We're arguing against someone who claimed Stannis plotted the demise of his brother so he could have a shot at the throne, while he knew from the start he'd have a snowball's chance in hell of taking it. The odds were stacked against him from the start. That's what this thread is about. Stannis may be rigid, he is not stupid. He's clearly bothered by the whole thing and fully aware of the fact he doesn't have much chance to take the throne when we first see him, he would never devise such a poorly devised plot and expect him and his 2000 men to somehow prevail over the entirety of the Lannister horde and everyone who would support their 'claim' (which Stannis knows they would).

You're still sounding as if it is somehow a crime for Stannis to declare himself King, while he already is King, simply because... What? Because some fancy pansy-ass like Renly decided he'd rather be King? Then every King facing a rebellion would immediately have to step down for someone claiming he was the better man for the job.

You act like the idea of letting his younger brother take the throne is crazy

It is crazy, for reasons I've already explained, and will quote again:

He would...

stop serving the realm (because whatever you say about him, he did well on the small council and as master of the fleet), disinherit all his children while he's at it and so on and so forth. (...) Stannis is not just trying to take the Crown for himself, he also has a duty to his bannermen, and his family. You're also forgetting Renly would not rule without challenge, far from it!

Dragonstone may not be the most comfy place in Westeros, but the Wall is hell. The worst criminals in the realm are sent there. That you're not at all opposed to the idea of Stannis, who is an unsung war hero by all standards, being among them for no good reason, already shows how much you hate this character, and how you're unable to form a proper opinion on him as a result. I wish you had a younger brother who had always been favoured over you and would then lay claim to everything you own and bought and worked for and obtained in your life, and told you you should go to an ice cold, scary prison where you had to fight off and kill big hairy men who want to murder you for the rest of your life just so you would realize how ridiculous what you're proposing sounds.

2)

So in order to protect his brother, he gives him no warning. Makes no attempts to approach Roberts trusted friend and Hand. Stops looking for any evidence or support to back his claims. Shuts himself away from all attempts to be reached and raises a secret army behind his brother's back. Gee I wonder why that plan failed....

It wasn't much of a stretch to believe the truth would at one point come to light. Varys and Illyrio knew, too, that it was only a matter of time until Ned found out the truth. The plan failed not because of Stannis, but because Ned told Cersei first, which is a blunder that still baffles most of the ASOIAF audience and characters, a blunder Stannis thus also couldn't have foreseen. The logical assumption was that a) If I tell my brother, he won't believe me since he hates me and I'm the last person people would believe if I brought this fact to light, and I'll likely be killed b ) When Ned Stark finds out, his sense of honour will make him tell Robert c) When Robert finds out he will kill the Lannisters and start a war, so I'd better prepare myself to fight at my brothers' side...

Hence why he was gathering an army. Call him many things, but Stannis isn't a fool, especially not when it comes to military business, he was never planning from the start to use his small army to enforce his claim, a claim he knew he couldn't prove and lords wouldn't approve of either unless it had the support of Ned Stark and his brother, as his dialogue early on in ACOK shows, fighting despite the odds however pushed on him when Ned screwed up, his brother unexpectedly died and he felt he had to continue his claim for the throne as a sense of duty.

3)

If Stannis truly didn't want to be king, then why not? Renly had the love of the common people, he had the support of the Tyrells and the Stormlands, He clearly wanted the throne which is a plus. Why should Renly give all that up to support Stannis in claiming a crown he says he doesn't want and is only interested in out of a misplaced sense of duty?

Because all the reasons that you summed up that are 'in Renly's favour' mean nothing at all, they are utterly irrelevant. Stannis' sense of duty isn't misplaced, I already explained to you why he feels it is his duty, and his duty is not just to himself (as Renly seems to believe). Stannis never told anyone 'hey, I don't want to be King', especially not openly. According to your line of thought, every king who faces rebellion from a traitor who claims he'd be the better man for the job should just capitulate.

Not that it really matters, but as for 'the love of the people' - Renly would have lost the love of the people quickly after they realized he could only push through his claim through endless war. Even if he defeated the Lannisters the North, Dorne and the Ironborn would have no reason at all to accept him as their King, and Renly was clearly ready to just attack them. Then later, when he died, he'd probably start another war and would probably be remembered as 'Renly the Bloody' for all the wars he's started / caused because he'd have had a lot of trouble fathering children being gay and all. The entire realm would then rise up and everyone from the lowest Ironborn captain to the highest Storm Lord back to the smallest mercenary leader, mirroring Renly, could declare themselves to be 'the best guy for the job', based on nothing at all, and a huge civil war would rage over all of Westeros, all thanks to good king Renly.

'The love of the people' is a very vague and irrelevant term, because as George repeatedly shows, the people of Westeros are not only retarded, but also greatly misinformed. We always hear of what a 'great guy' Renly is supposed to be, but what did he do for the realm? What did he really do? That's right, nothing but taking care of his PR. He's good at selling himself to the people, that's all. Margaery is loved by the people of King's Landing too, but it is her family that was starving the city months prior. Tyrion protected King's Landing, but he is loathed, just as Stannis is loathed despite his victories and part in bringing down the Mad King. You see how much this 'love of the people' means, how representative it really is. What it comes down to, is that Renly has nothing going for him, nothing. Zero. Nope, nothing, still nothing, not ever, nope, never, not even a small bit, nothing.

'He clearly wanted the throne which is a plus?' Dude? What? I'm sure some rapist in Flea Bottom would like to have the throne, too, what a great argument for that guy! Besides, you could argue that someone who doesn't want the throne could make a better King.

Also, he certainly put honor above blood when it came to Renly....

Renly attacked Stannis by denying his claim and preparing to take it from him by force, not the other way around. Stannis defended himself, and won. You wouldn't be complaining if Renly had had his 1000000000 knights kill Stannis on the field. The use of magic is irrelevant. It is a tool just as much as a sword or a crossbow is.

This bit I quoted also shows you're clearly simply another person who is still butthurt (appropriate term) over Renly getting what's coming to him and grasping for straws to somehow have a shot at Stannis using flawed logic, imaginary facts and crackpot theories. I've seen many of you and will no longer waste my time on you, as I feel I've crushed your 'arguments' well enough that any further arguing could only be a result of you trolling, taking small portions of my post and trying to pick them apart while forgetting the bigger picture, failed understanding or ignorance of what I already said on your part.

[Penguin king]

For Stannis he had no choice because he is driven by duty and justice (I would argue duty rates even higher than justice. Justice for him means the laws of the land). He had a duty. He did it. There is no choice in the worldview that Stannis inhabits. You can disagree. However, my reading, understanding, and interpretation is just as a valid as those that differ.

His duty was to do what was best for the realm. However, instead of working with his brother to have the Lannisters removed, he has him killed and drives the tyrells towards the Lannister cause. All because he felt that he had to be the Baratheon sat on the throne. A throne that you claim he doesn't even want.

Stannis has never claimed to be honorable. He specifically says he gave up honor when he chose Robert over Aerys.

Jon's Queen Consort was making the point that he couldn't have wanted Robert dead, because he put blood over honor in the civil war. That may be true, but it seems that both blood and honor come second to power. He had Renly killed when he got in his way, and came pretty close to killing Edric Storm too.

[Penguin king]

Good job ignoring / not understanding my entire post, Penguin. I'll break this down for you to make it simple.

1. 'Stannis doesn't want the Crown' -> this is not the same thing as 'Stannis plotted to have his brother murdered so he could be King' or 'Stannis hates pursuing the Crown'. You clearly, entirely don't understand the character of Stannis. In his perception, he is the King (and he is), whether he wants it or not is irrelevant, also to himself. He sees it as his duty to the realm to be King, and do what is expected of him as a King. He may not want to be King per se, but he wants to fulfill his duty, and it just so happens that his current duty to live up to is being King and fulfilling the duties of a king, like defending the Wall while everyone else doesn't even want to commit 1 percent of their strength to it. By stepping aside, he would be forsaking his duty as King, and Stannis is all about duty. There is also no good reason, not one, that he would not be King.

Stannis claims to be all about duty. The funny thing is that his duty always seems to coincide with his own personal gain. "It's my right to rule the richer lands of Storms end instead of dragonstone" "I'm the one who should be picked as Hand and make all the decisions while my brother boozes and whores his life away" "it's my duty to rule an entire continent. woe woe is me."

About the only selfless thing he does is defend the wall from wildlings, and even then he turns it to his advantage by using the wall as his new base of operations far away from King's landing, while Dragonstone and Storm's end are put to seige. It's almost as if he likes having power...

I never said that. We're arguing against someone who claimed Stannis plotted the demise of his brother so he could have a shot at the throne, while he knew from the start he'd have a snowball's chance in hell of taking it. The odds were stacked against him from the start. That's what this thread is about. Stannis may be rigid, he is not stupid. He's clearly bothered by the whole thing and fully aware of the fact he doesn't have much chance to take the throne when we first see him, he would never devise such a poorly devised plot and expect him and his 2000 men to somehow prevail over the entirety of the Lannister horde and everyone who would support their 'claim' (which Stannis knows they would).

He expected to raise more men. He sent davos out to gather support. The fact of the matter is though that he's not all that popular.

You're still sounding as if it is somehow a crime for Stannis to declare himself King, while he already is King, simply because... What? Because some fancy pansy-ass like Renly decided he'd rather be King? Then every King facing a rebellion would immediately have to step down for someone claiming he was the better man for the job.

No because apparently he doesn't want to be king... If he want's it then fine his decisions make sense, but killing your only remaining brother over something you don't even want is incredibly stupid. Renly would have done just as good a job as Stannis would, he had the support to back up his claim, and the love of the people. Why fight so hard for something you don't even want? It's madness.

It wasn't much of a stretch to believe the truth would at one point come to light. Varys and Illyrio knew, too, that it was only a matter of time until Ned found out the truth. The plan failed not because of Stannis, but because Ned told Cersei first, which is a blunder that still baffles most of the ASOIAF audience and characters, a blunder Stannis thus also couldn't have foreseen. The logical assumption was that a) If I tell my brother, he won't believe me since he hates me and I'm the last person people would believe if I brought this fact to light, and I'll likely be killed B) When Ned Stark finds out, his sense of honour will make him tell Robert c) When Robert finds out he will kill the Lannisters and start a war, so I'd better prepare myself to fight at my brothers' side...

Ned wouldn't have even looked if Littlefinger hadn't been trying to stir up trouble between the Starks and the Lannisters. Everyone thought that Jon Arryns death had been natural. it was Littlefinger that got Ned thinking there was some big conspiricy going on. But either way, why assume that Ned would be the one to find out? What if Renly stumbled accross the information first, or Pycelle or any of the other agents working in Kingslanding? If His plan hinged on Ned finding out, then he could have given him some help instead of ignoring all his summons.

Hence why he was gathering an army. Call him many things, but Stannis isn't a fool, especially not when it comes to military business, he was never planning from the start to use his small army to enforce his claim, a claim he knew he couldn't prove and lords wouldn't approve of either unless it had the support of Ned Stark and his brother, this was however pushed on him when Ned screwed up, his brother unexpectedly died and he felt he had to continue his claim for the throne as a sense of duty.

Oh, so Stannis would have to be a fool to think he could take the throne with such a small army.... That's funny because I kinda remember him trying to do that in the series... twice.... I guess duty comes before stupidity...

Because all the reasons that you summed up that are 'in Renly's favour' mean nothing at all, they are utterly irrelevant. Stannis' sense of duty isn't misplaced, I already explained to you why he feels it is his duty, and his duty is not just to himself (as Renly seems to believe). Stannis never told anyone 'hey, I don't want to be King', especially not openly. According to your line of thought, every king who faces rebellion from a traitor who claims he'd be the better man for the job should just capitulate.

No my line of thought is "A king who doesn't want the throne should probably avoid killing his own brother in a vain attempt to keep it"

Renly attacked Stannis by denying his claim and preparing to take it from him by force, not the other way around. Stannis defended himself, and won. You wouldn't be complaining if Renly had had his 1000000000 knights kill Stannis on the field. The use of magic is irrelevant. It is a tool just as much as a sword or a crossbow is.

Um I think you'll find that Renly declared first and made no move against his brother. and that Stannis actually came to Renly asking for a fight. by seiging Storm's End. But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument or anything.

This bit I quoted also shows you're clearly simply another person who is still butthurt (appropriate term) over Renly getting what's coming to him and grasping for straws to somehow have a shot at Stannis using flawed logic, imaginary facts and crackpot theories. I've seen many of you and will no longer waste my time on you, as I feel I've crushed your 'arguments' well enough that any further arguing could only be a result of you trolling, taking small portions of my post and trying to pick them apart while forgetting the bigger picture, failed understanding or ignorance of what I already said on your part.

Thanks for the ad hominems they really help reinforce your argument. Stay classy ;)

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

:shocked: No.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Double post.

[jons nissa]

Stannis claims to be all about duty. The funny thing is that his duty always seems to coincide with his own personal gain. "It's my right to rule the richer lands of Storms end instead of dragonstone" "I'm the one who should be picked as Hand and make all the decisions while my brother boozes and whores his life away" "it's my duty to rule an entire continent. woe woe is me."

About the only selfless thing he does is defend the wall from wildlings, and even then he turns it to his advantage by using the wall as his new base of operations far away from King's landing, while Dragonstone and Storm's end are put to seige. It's almost as if he likes having power...

He expected to raise more men. He sent davos out to gather support. The fact of the matter is though that he's not all that popular.

No because apparently he doesn't want to be king... If he want's it then fine his decisions make sense, but killing your only remaining brother over something you don't even want is incredibly stupid. Renly would have done just as good a job as Stannis would, he had the support to back up his claim, and the love of the people. Why fight so hard for something you don't even want? It's madness.

Ned wouldn't have even looked if Littlefinger hadn't been trying to stir up trouble between the Starks and the Lannisters. Everyone thought that Jon Arryns death had been natural. it was Littlefinger that got Ned thinking there was some big conspiricy going on. But either way, why assume that Ned would be the one to find out? What if Renly stumbled accross the information first, or Pycelle or any of the other agents working in Kingslanding? If His plan hinged on Ned finding out, then he could have given him some help instead of ignoring all his summons.

Oh, so Stannis would have to be a fool to think he could take the throne with such a small army.... That's funny because I kinda remember him trying to do that in the series... twice.... I guess duty comes before stupidity...

No my line of thought is "A king who doesn't want the throne should probably avoid killing his own brother in a vain attempt to keep it"

Um I think you'll find that Renly declared first and made no move against his brother. and that Stannis actually came to Renly asking for a fight. by seiging Storm's End. But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument or anything.

Thanks for the ad hominems they really help reinforce your argument. Stay classy ;)

my hero! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Associate Maester]

His duty was to do what was best for the realm. However, instead of working with his brother to have the Lannisters removed, he has him killed and drives the tyrells towards the Lannister cause. All because he felt that he had to be the Baratheon sat on the throne. A throne that you claim he doesn't even want.

Jon's Queen Consort was making the point that he couldn't have wanted Robert dead, because he put blood over honor in the civil war. That may be true, but it seems that both blood and honor come second to power. He had Renly killed when he got in his way, and came pretty close to killing Edric Storm too.

Hey, at least Stannis is held in a higher esteem by the author. Martin did call Stannis a righteous man. Stannis is flawed, but he is the one fighting for the realm. Although, you apparently have more insight than those of us that disagree with you.

[Theda Baratheon]

He didn't want Robert dead.

[Cas Stark]

People come up with the oddest angles. I don't see anything that supports this, Stannis explains exactly why he didn't go to Robert directly and why he went to Jon Arryn instead in order to have evidence so Robert would believe him. He's very clear that he wasn't close to either of his brothers and of his jealousy of Ned Stark, but that doesn't prevent him from also very clearly saying he's going to get justice for their murders. Once the Lannisters have seized the throne and put the abomination Joffrey "Baratheon" on it, he might as well make his suspicions known publicly, he's got nothing to lose and all to gain.

[Penguin king]

Hey, at least Stannis is held in a higher esteem by the author. Martin did call Stannis a righteous man. Stannis is flawed, but he is the one fighting for the realm.

I googled for that quote, and he's talking about his defence of the wall. It's got nothing to do with his relationship with his brothers, or his desire for the throne. Before his defeat at Blackwater Stannis couldn't have cared less about the wall.

The real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man

Note he says "in spite of everything" meaning that in GRRM's opinion there are elements of Stannis's character that aren't so righteous.

Although, you apparently have more insight than those of us that disagree with you.

Anyone who thinks they're arguing from a position of inferior insight probably shouldn't be posting. I fail to see how i'm being any more presumtive than yourself.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Stannis claims to be all about duty. The funny thing is that his duty always seems to coincide with his own personal gain. "It's my right to rule the richer lands of Storms end instead of dragonstone" "I'm the one who should be picked as Hand and make all the decisions while my brother boozes and whores his life away" "it's my duty to rule an entire continent. woe woe is me."

About the only selfless thing he does is defend the wall from wildlings, and even then he turns it to his advantage by using the wall as his new base of operations far away from King's landing, while Dragonstone and Storm's end are put to seige. It's almost as if he likes having power...

He expected to raise more men. He sent davos out to gather support. The fact of the matter is though that he's not all that popular.

No because apparently he doesn't want to be king... If he want's it then fine his decisions make sense, but killing your only remaining brother over something you don't even want is incredibly stupid. Renly would have done just as good a job as Stannis would, he had the support to back up his claim, and the love of the people. Why fight so hard for something you don't even want? It's madness.

Ned wouldn't have even looked if Littlefinger hadn't been trying to stir up trouble between the Starks and the Lannisters. Everyone thought that Jon Arryns death had been natural. it was Littlefinger that got Ned thinking there was some big conspiricy going on. But either way, why assume that Ned would be the one to find out? What if Renly stumbled accross the information first, or Pycelle or any of the other agents working in Kingslanding? If His plan hinged on Ned finding out, then he could have given him some help instead of ignoring all his summons.

Oh, so Stannis would have to be a fool to think he could take the throne with such a small army.... That's funny because I kinda remember him trying to do that in the series... twice.... I guess duty comes before stupidity...

No my line of thought is "A king who doesn't want the throne should probably avoid killing his own brother in a vain attempt to keep it"

Um I think you'll find that Renly declared first and made no move against his brother. and that Stannis actually came to Renly asking for a fight. by seiging Storm's End. But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument or anything.

Thanks for the ad hominems they really help reinforce your argument. Stay classy ;)

This. Stannis is the classic middle child: Older brother was the heir so he got everything he wanted; younger brother was the baby so he got everything he wanted; I got the shaft cause mommy and daddy didn't love me as much.

He bitches about his duty to the realm, but when he could have put his ambitions aside, supported Renly, and done something that truly helped the realm he chose not too. I'm not defending Renly, he was a smug little shit, but Stannis could have been the better man and chose not too. Stannis could never have gained the Tyrell alliance like Renly did and the only reason Mace supported Renly was cause he made Margaery his queen. If Renly hadn't declared himself then the Tyrells probably would have reached out to the Lannisters sooner (or vice versa) and Stannis would have been even more fucked than he is now.

[Antler's Fury]

Stannis' strategy from the beginning should of been to tell his brother Robert about Cersei's bastard kids. Instead he just fled to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn died.I get that he was probably in fear for his life because he visited the same brothel with Jon Arryn, but common the King is your brother, and you sit on his small council with your other little brother. Part of me feels like Stannis wanted something to happen to his brother so he could make his claim.

If this was the case, why'd he tell Arryn at all? He could have kept his suspicions to himself, investigated on his own, and then rebelled against Joff once Robert died. The fact that he told Arryn at all tells us that he did not want Robert to die.

I get Stannis being upset about that, but I don't like how he shows Eddard barely any appreciation or love for lifting the siege of Storm's End and for saving his butt.

Given that this is irrelevant to the central question of your post, I'm curious; do you fault Ned for showing Stannis any love or appreciation for maintaining the seige? After all, this is what tied up the Tyrell forces long enough for Robert to win at the Trident. How about Robert? He gave Storm's End to Renly, even though it was Stannis who defended it and thus enabled Robert to win his crown.

When Stannis originally got back to Dragonstone from Kings Landing, he could of sent a Raven to Eddard in Winterfell informing him about Robert's children, and Eddard could of warned Robert when he arrived. However, Stannis had no problem breaking out the Ravens to explain things to the rest of the realm when it came time for him to "Make his Claim".

The difference between the two situations is that the former needed to be covert. If Stannis were to inform Ned, he'd need to do it secretly, so that the Lannisters or Varys' spies would not find out. Unlike Lysa and Cat, he had no secret language he could use to communicate with Ned. Moreover, his lack of proof in hand meant that Ned would have no reason to believe him even if his message reached Ned without anyone knowing about it. In contrast, when Stannis was making his claim, there was no need for secrecy. Joff was in power, and Ned was dead. There was no need to conceal anything anymore, because the Lannisters had already successfully carried out their coup. The point of the secrecy, however, was to compile enough evidence to disinherit Joff and prevent the Lannisters from successfully grabbing the throne.

In my opinon, Stannis doesn't deserve the Iron Throne. He left his family out to dry after Robert slighted him. From what we have seen, he didn't take every opportunity to warn Robert about his children and his enemies, and he killed his little brother Renly with an evil Shadow.

Whether Stannis left his family high and dry in leaving for Dragonstone is a debatable issue, because we still don't know why he exactly he fled. What we do know is that he was gathering what strength he had on Dragonstone. What he was going to do with this strength is unclear, but it's not much of a stretch to think that he was going to use it to fight for Robert should some conflict break out with the Lannisters, as he had in previous wars on Robert's behalf. Warning Robert about his children would require Robert's believing him, and Stannis had no reason to think that Robert would, because the accuasation of incest would be self-serving, and make Stannis heir. Worse, should Robert not believe him, then the Lannisters would know that Stannis knew, and not only try to kill him, but also Robert, to ensure that Joff ascends before Joff's paternity can be fully investigated. From Stannis' perspective, Jon Arryn was killed for his knowledge of the incest, which would have made anyone with that knowledge, including Robert Stannis, and even Ned, potential targets for assassination by the Lannisters. As far as Renly is concerned, Stannis only killed him with a shadow (and its stil unclear whether he knew exactly what was happening) after Renly decided to steal Stannis' crown and threatened to kill him for daring to complain about it.

In Stannis own words, "The Good Act does not wash out the Bad, nor the Bad the Good". He allied with this sorceress Melisandre to try and take his throne, and she has been performing some pretty dark arts and magics along the way. Whatever Melisandre's true intentions are we have yet to see, but in my opinion Stannis lost his right to the Iron Throne when he chose her over his own family. To prove he chose her over his own family, he was going to let Melisandre sacrifice Robert's bastard son Edric Storm just because he had Kings Blood. I hope Stannis kills Roose and Ramsay, and then dies a slow and horrible death himself.

You've called the shadow assassin "evil" and consider Mel's magic to be "dark." Why? How is this any worse than using a sword or bow to kill someone? Is something evil merely because it is magical? Was Tyrion's use of wildfire evil? How about Bran or Jon's warging abilities? Personally I suspect that the view of the Red God's powers as "evil" reflects the biased perspective the readers receive, since we hear about it from the perspective of followers of the Seven or the Old Gods. As far as Edric is concerned, he was very conflicted over the issue. However, if he did kill Edric, he specifically said that he would do it for the sake of all of the children in Westeros who would suffer should the war drag on. Sacrificing Edric was supposed to awaken Dragonstone's stone dragon and enable him to win.

If you are in fear of your own life to the point that you flee to Dragonstone, doesn't it reason that you would be in fear of your brother's life as well?

Stannis fled following Arryn's death, which he thought happened because the Lannisters wanted to silence him and stop the incest investigations. Therefore, Stannis had no reason to fear for Robert, because he did not know. From Stannis' perspective, the Lannisters are only killing people who are investigating their secret. This makes Stannis in danger, but not Robert; if the Lannisters wanted to kill Robert, they'd have done it after the kids were all born. Indeed, Cersei does have to speed up her murder of Robert, precisely because Ned and Arryn were investigating the incest.

[Antler's Fury]

Part of me wishes Ned took Littlefinger up on his plan, support Joffrey, be lord protector for 4 years until Joffrey is 16 and who knows, maybe he could change Joffrey into a real and honorable man/king.

You're kidding, right? Joff was clearly beyond help, especially once he was crowned. Tyrion tried harder than Ned ever could have, and all that did was irritate Joff even more.

[Antler's Fury]

Correction: he says he doesn't want to be king.

Does he? I don't remember him ever saying "I don't want to be king" or anything similar. He does say "I never asked for this" which is true, he did not. He also says "Wants do not enter into it" which is simply being noncommittal. He could want it, or not want it, but it doesn't matter, because he has a duty to take it now that it has fallen to him. You could compare this to Ned and the Handship. He didn't want it, but once Robert offered it to him, he had a duty to Robert, Jon Arryn, and the realm, to find out what was going on. So, he only wanted the Handship once it was thrust upon him by unfortunate circumstances (Arryn's death). Similarly, as Stannis said, he had a duty to Shireen, to Robert, to the realm, and to all the people the Lannisters killed, to take the crown and set things right once the crown fell to him through unfortunate circumstances (Robert's death).

[Antler's Fury]

This.

If Stannis really didn't want the Throne, he had a thousand chances to give up on his claim. And his talk of "duty above all" is quite funny given that for many months he kept a deadly secret he had a duty to tell Robert ASAP.

He had a duty to save Robert. Telling him a difficult truth (Robert has notorious trouble with difficult truths) with little evidence, given Robert's history of ignoring Stannis, was not the best path, especially seeing as he would be showing the Lannisters his hand, and making Robert vulnerable to assassination. As far as Stannis was concerned, the Lannisters killed Arryn to cover up the truth and ensure Joffrey's unimpeded ascension to power.

[Antler's Fury]

I think there is a a definate possibility that Stannis was waiting for the death of Robert so he could take the throne. Those months he spent on Dragonstone are mostly unaccounted for. We know that he made no attempt during that time to contact Ned or Robert with what he had discovered. We also know that he was raising his bannners and putting a fleet together, and that no one who arrived on Dragonstone during those months was allowed to leave. Other than that we have little idea what he was doing or what his plans were.

If he wanted power, why'd he tell Jon Arryn? He could have just investigated himself, and then waited for Robert to die, and rebelled against Joff. The fact that he told suggests that he wanted Robert to live. We know that he was massing troops on Dragonstone, but we don't know exacty what he was going to do. It's possible that he suspected that some kind of conflict was going to erupt, and wanted swords on hand to fight for Robert, just as he had in previous occassions. If there is one thing that the books have taught us, its that you can never have enough swords.

Even if he wasn't actively working against his brother, there's very little indication that what he was doing during that time was in Robert's best interests. He claims not to want the throne, but goes to great lengths to see himself sat upon it. Maester Aemon was put in the same position as Stannis finds himself in in ACOK and he graciously stepped aside, taking the Black so that his younger brother could rule without challenge. Stannis on the other hand had Renly assasinated rather than support him.

Putting swords in the hands of Baratheon loyalists is definitely in Robert's best interests. However, the comparison to Maester Aemon that you and others have made is baseless. First off, Aemon was, at the time of Maekar's death, already a chained and sworn Maester. He was offered the possibility of having his vows undone by the High Septon, and denied, because he did not want to be king, and felt that Aegon should rule. He took the black to ensure that no one tried to use him, even as Maester, to influence Aegon's court. Stannis' situation is different. He was not a chained and sworn Maester when Robert died. Moreover, Renly is not like Aegon. Aegon was offered the crown at a Grand Council convened specifically to decide who would become king. Renly, in contrast, knew Stannis had a better right to the throne than he did, but usurped Stannis' rights, and threatened to kill him for daring to protest. Aegon was no usurper. There was no reason for Stannis to put aside his rights and allow Renly to usurp, because the whole reason there is a line of succession in the first place is to prevent anyone who thinks himself better suited and capable of summoning enough support from attempting to seize power every time a king died and constantly plunging the realm into civil war.

His duty was to do what was best for the realm.

In his mind, this means him becoming king, as the law demands.

However, instead of working with his brother to have the Lannisters removed,

It was Renly who refused to work with him.

he has him killed and drives the tyrells towards the Lannister cause.

The Tyrells drove themselves towards the Lannister cause when presented with a marriage alliance. They could have declared for Stannis after Renly died. They chose not to.

Jon's Queen Consort was making the point that he couldn't have wanted Robert dead, because he put blood over honor in the civil war. That may be true, but it seems that both blood and honor come second to power. He had Renly killed when he got in his way, and came pretty close to killing Edric Storm too

He's still choosing blood over honor, just different blood. He has to fight Renly to secure Shireen's rights as his heir. One of the reasons he's fighting is for her sake. Similarly, with Edric Storm, sacrificing him would mean sparing the blood of thousands of Westerois children, instead of that of Edric.

Stannis claims to be all about duty. The funny thing is that his duty always seems to coincide with his own personal gain.

Not always. Personal gain during Robert's Rebellion woud have meant siding with Aerys, letting Robert die, and then taking Storm's End for himself as a reward for leal service. Personal gain would have been doing nothing during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and letting other people risk their lives. Personal gain would have meant supporting Joffrey in exchange for a cushy post in his council, instead of trying to cross over a bridge of burning ships, facing a wilding horde twenty times his numbers, and then marching through a blizzard, to unseat Lannister spawn.

"It's my right to rule the richer lands of Storms end instead of dragonstone"

He certainly had more of a right than Renly, who did nothing to deserve it.

"I'm the one who should be picked as Hand and make all the decisions while my brother boozes and whores his life away"

Because he knew about the incest. Making him Hand would have given him the power and the trust of Robert, so he could indeed expose them as Ned and Arryn were going to.

"it's my duty to rule an entire continent. woe woe is me."

Because he's Robert's heir.

About the only selfless thing he does is defend the wall from wildlings, and even then he turns it to his advantage by using the wall as his new base of operations far away from King's landing, while Dragonstone and Storm's end are put to seige. It's almost as if he likes having power...

So? Should Stannis have saved the Wall and then turned himself in at KL? He needs to keep fighting to ensure that Lannisters face justice for their crimes, and that the realm is united agains the Others. For that he needs a new seat, now that Dragonstone and Storm's End are no longer accessable.

Um I think you'll find that Renly declared first and made no move against his brother. and that Stannis actually came to Renly asking for a fight. by seiging Storm's End. But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument or anything.

Stannis came asking Renly for the submission Renly owed him by law. Renly threatened him with death should he dare to complain about his usurpation. Renly insisted on fighting, so he can hardly complain about losing.

I googled for that quote, and he's talking about his defence of the wall. It's got nothing to do with his relationship with his brothers, or his desire for the throne. Before his defeat at Blackwater Stannis couldn't have cared less about the wall.

Before Blackwater Stannis had no reason to believe that the Wall was in danger.

Note he says "in spite of everything" meaning that in GRRM's opinion there are elements of Stannis's character that aren't so righteous.

No doubt. Although this distinction could be applied to any character in the series.

[JC Denton]

I am a big Stannis fan and want him to win the throne but I do not like his remarks about Ned.Whenever he gets a chance he bashes Ned...when he talks to Jon, when he tells Asha he can't spare Theon because he murdered the mountain clans "precious Ned's sons" etc. Ned was a better man then Stannis ever could be.I really like Stannis but he needs to show more respect to Ned, who DIED because he supported Stannis as the rightful ruler instead of going along with Joffrey and being Lord Protector of the realm for 4 years.Part of me wishes Ned took Littlefinger up on his plan, support Joffrey, be lord protector for 4 years until Joffrey is 16 and who knows, maybe he could change Joffrey into a real and honorable man/king.

That was Littlefingers idea but I don't think Cersei would have gone for that ... remember she tore up Robert's order which made Ned Regent in the throne room scene. Even if Ned wouldn't have any objection to Joffrey being crowned, I don't think Cersei would have let him continue as Regent/Hand. I don't think she really wanted him dead because she knew that would start a war, but I think she wanted him out of King's Landing at a minimum.