Is Stannis a kinslayer?

[E-Ro]

This is why I am very undecided when it comes to Stannis. On one hand, he seems like a just man, on the other, I remember that Balon Greyjoy exiled Euron, rather than killing him. Sure, Renly had the army, and the love of the people, while Stannis was the true heir to the kingdom(no matter which way you put it, he was the heir at the moment of Robert's death), but I don't think the fact that Renly openly usurped him, instead of supporting his brother can somehow make up for the kinslaying crime.

Don't be conflicted. Stannis is a just man and he was in the right, people seem to forget renly would have killed stannis just as fast if he had the chance. He gave orders not to defile the body showing that yes, he planned to kill stannis.

As for the people's love of renly it's far overstated, the idea that renly had so much support due to the people's love of him is nonsense. He was lord of se so the storm lords were with him. And he was sleeping with Lora's and had a queen ship to offer the tyrells so the reach was with him. Trust me, if renly was married already and could not marry marg the reach would not have supported him.

And hey, at least stannis didn't feed him to a dragon.

[Waylin Stark]

Yes, although he seems to regret it.

[Talleyrand]

You know, Renly was marching towards Stannis' capital back then.

Or you know Joffrey's capital, the guy who's actually sitting in it and has all the local lords sworn to him

[E-Ro]

Or you know Joffrey's capital, the guy who's actually sitting in it and has all the local lords sworn to him

Nope. Joffrey is a bastard born if incest and has no claim at all to the throne not even a claim by right of conquest due to him posing as a baratheon and attempting to rule in said houses name.

Renly declaring himself king was an act of war and a hostile move against stannis. The greedy fool wasted no time in raising his men and attempting to steal his brothers throne.

[Thendel]

Yup, Stannis killed his brother, and I'm pretty sure he knows it. And very unlike himself, he seems guiltridden over it.

Was it unfair? I'm inclined to say no. Renly knew the risks he took when he crowned himself king. When he and Stannis ended their summit, both knew that either would see the other destroyed - the bond of blood had effectively been overridden by greater motivations of theirs. For his part, Renly didn't seem to have any qualms about killing his brother - he implicitly ordered it during the preparations for that battle that never happened.

[Reek Da Villain]

To me it just seemed like Renly not liking stannis was good enough reason to decide he didnt deserve to be king, which even if justifiable, certainly isnt the way things work.

he couldnt have defeated Joffrey in a swordfight.

he has Robert's flaws ( selfish desires are more important than the matter at hand, likes exquisite celebrations, is naive)

yet none of his strength.

Renly wanted to be king so he could rule like robert, but a bit nicer.

Whiles Stannis is not the most likable character to some, he has a strong sense of duty and responsibility, his reasons for wanting the throne have nothing to do with his own desire, he is compelled to be king because he believes it is his right, and technically, it kinda is.

As far as i can tell, the only Kingly quality Renly actually has is his tongue. He did convince all those house to support him, but i believe its just because they dont like Stannis either, he says he ought to hang them for traitors after Renly is killed so i imagine they follow him out of necessity and not loyalty.

im a new poster here so im not looking to berate your opinions, this is just how i feel about renly.

No worries, no worries.

I'm not really a fan of Renly. But I think he has some kingly characteristics. He was charismatic and he made friends easily. I don't think every king needs to be a warrior. Certainly, not all Targaryen kings were warriors.

Moreover, his alliance with the Tyrells would have been beneficial. The Tyrells are a wealthy house and they can raise a very large host; the largest. He also would have had the support of the North and the Vale as it was Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn who helped to seat a Baratheon on the throne.

Stannis is more fit to rule the realm. He's stern, unwavering and experienced. But his personality makes it difficult for him to form alliances. Alliances are crucial.

[MasterJack]

Stannis is more fit to rule the realm. He's stern, unwavering and experienced. But his personality makes it difficult for him to form alliances. Alliances are crucial.

He knows it himself, that's why he made Davos his Hand. :D

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Stannis killed his brother. He is a kinslayer. Kinslaying is not about intent, utilitarianism or justifiable homicide (self defense). Even if it was unintended or in self defense (Maekar didn't mean to kill Baelon, and was defending himself) or utilitarian (Jamie saved thousands but all anyone remembers is that he killed the king he swore to protect) it still violates the taboo against killing ones own kin. The fact that there are mitigating circumstances doesn't change the fact that Stan killed his brother.

[Pyrrhus]

Stannis killed his brother. He is a kinslayer. Kinslaying is not about intent, utilitarianism or justifiable homicide (self defense). Even if it was unintended or in self defense (Maekar didn't mean to kill Baelon, and was defending himself) or utilitarian (Jamie saved thousands but all anyone remembers is that he killed the king he swore to protect) it still violates the taboo against killing ones own kin. The fact that there are mitigating circumstances doesn't change the fact that Stan killed his brother.

Which is why I say yes, Stannis is a kinslayer. But that word means nothing to me. Maybe it's how I was raised, but I certainly don't love everyone in my family, there's a select few people, but if it came down to a situation where it was me or them, I'd kill most of them without a second thought. Never saw the big deal honestly. They share my last name, good for them. If they cross me, well I don't play that game.

[A Man Has Said]

Really? Stannis killing Renly is self-defence? Stannis goes out of his way to go and attack Renly's holdings. Renly didn't rebel against Stannis, Stannis began the hostilities between to two by sailing to Storm's End and laying siege to it

YES. Not to mention that there was little strategic value in besieging Storm's End, the castle that had withstood a Tyrell siege for a year (as Stannis well knows - he was the besieged party.)

Stannis' reasons for being at Storm's End are very suspect, and put him in a poor light indeed. They show his priorities are not as he pretends, a question of duty and honour and all the legalisms he goes into about being the rightful king. He's at Storm's End because

1) he holds a HUGE resentment that Robert gave the castle to Renly and not him, though it is his by hereditary right AND he sacrificed a year of his life in HELL to defend it.

2) He sees delivering any kind of defeat to Renly as more important than taking his 'rightful' crown from Joffrey - who he believes to be a bastard usurper and 'an abomination born of incest.'

So if you judge Stannis by his actions instead of his words, his presence at Storm's End doesn't reflect well on him at all. Plus, any defense you may try to advance based on motive -- it was during warfare, it was self defense, etc., -- falls apart. He killed him (if he did) because he'd hated him for most of his life. And ironically he hated him because he was likeable and Stannis wasn't.

[A Man Has Said]

Did Stannis in fact kill Renly? Did Melisandre? I just read the Davos IV chapter in Storm of Swords and it seems to indicate that Stannis had nothing to do with Renly's death. But looking deeper it seems to show that either Stannis is lying or Melisandre has lied to him.

"Now you sound a fool," the king [stannis] complained. "She saw Renly's end in the flames, yes, but she had no more part in it than I did. The Priestess was with me. Your Devan would tell you so. Ask him, if you doubt me. She would have spared Renly if she could. It was Melisandre who urged me to meet with him, and give him one last chance to amend his treason. And it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Axell wished to give you to R'hllor.

So neither Stannis nor Melisandre had anything to do with Renly dying after they'd given him 'one last chance' which he didn't take? Huh.

Either Stannis is lying to Davos or Melisandre has not only lied to Stannis but I think hypnotized him into believing such nonsense.

[devilrob6]

Stannis went to Storm's End because he wanted Renly's support and his army. I remember that before there were any shadow babies sent to Renly, he was given the chance to bend the knee, join Stannis, be his heir and keep his place in the small council. That was a good offer, which Renly couldn't take because it didnt fit into his schemings with the Tyrells. Also Renly talks about how Stannis body should be treated after the battle, showing that the intent was to kill him. REnly laos says that Barristan Selmy should be spared in case he was fighting for Stannis. Renly could have decided to tell his men to spare Stannis as well, but he didn't. He wanted Stannis to die. Renly's banners would not have joined Stannis while Renly lived. So Stannis wanted Renly to die. Both brothers had the same choice. Be killed or be a kinslayer. Stannis ended up being the kinslayer, and being still alive and fighting for the throne.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Did Stannis in fact kill Renly? Did Melisandre? I just read the Davos IV chapter in Storm of Swords and it seems to indicate that Stannis had nothing to do with Renly's death. But looking deeper it seems to show that either Stannis is lying or Melisandre has lied to him.

"Now you sound a fool," the king [stannis] complained. "She saw Renly's end in the flames, yes, but she had no more part in it than I did. The Priestess was with me. Your Devan would tell you so. Ask him, if you doubt me. She would have spared Renly if she could. It was Melisandre who urged me to meet with him, and give him one last chance to amend his treason. And it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Axell wished to give you to R'hllor.

So neither Stannis nor Melisandre had anything to do with Renly dying after they'd given him 'one last chance' which he didn't take? Huh.

Either Stannis is lying to Davos or Melisandre has not only lied to Stannis but I think hypnotized him into believing such nonsense.

Any explanations about this?

Does Stannis know?

[A Man Has Said]

@RicardoFF - I don't know. The quote is right from the chapter cited. There may be another passage where Melisandre admits to having a part in it and deceiving Stannis. I wouldn't put it past her. I really do hate her. She's as much as a self-serving manipulative beeyotch as Cersei, but with skillz Cersei lacks. I really doubt the sincerity of her 'belief' that Stannis is Azor Ahai, and we know the 'Lightbringer' sword to be a fake, nothing but an ordinary sword on which a 'glamor' spell has been cast. I don't know what she's up to, but it can't be good.

[A Man Has Said]

Stannis went to Storm's End because he wanted Renly's support and his army. I remember that before there were any shadow babies sent to Renly, he was given the chance to bend the knee, join Stannis, be his heir and keep his place in the small council. That was a good offer, which Renly couldn't take because it didnt fit into his schemings with the Tyrells. Also Renly talks about how Stannis body should be treated after the battle, showing that the intent was to kill him. REnly laos says that Barristan Selmy should be spared in case he was fighting for Stannis. Renly could have decided to tell his men to spare Stannis as well, but he didn't. He wanted Stannis to die. Renly's banners would not have joined Stannis while Renly lived. So Stannis wanted Renly to die. Both brothers had the same choice. Be killed or be a kinslayer. Stannis ended up being the kinslayer, and being still alive and fighting for the throne.

That's not my recollection of the passage at all. What I remember was Renly worrying about an 'in the event that' Stannis' death was unavoidable. I believe his instructions to his soldiers was that it should be avoided if possible. But my memory could be faulty. It's been a few weeks since I re-read (the second time through) that book.

[E-Ro]

That's not my recollection of the passage at all. What I remember was Renly worrying about an 'in the event that' Stannis' death was unavoidable. I believe his instructions to his soldiers was that it should be avoided if possible. But my memory could be faulty. It's been a few weeks since I re-read (the second time through) that book.

Your memory is faulty. Renly specifically says his body is not to be defiled. There is no talk of sparing him at all, renly ordered his death.

[E-Ro]

"When my brother falls, see that no insult is done to his corpse. He is my own blood, I will not have his head paraded about on a spear."

Yeah, it looks like self defense to me.

[Lion of Judah]

Renly actions were treasonous and thus punishable, he had no right staking a claim to his older brother's crown and he paid for his crime with his life. I don't view that as kinslaying, Stannis was in the right.

[Talleyrand]

Yeah, it looks like self defense to me.

Its not self defence when you're the one to begins the hostilities, which Stannis did.

Renly actions were treasonous and thus punishable, he had no right staking a claim to his older brother's crown and he paid for his crime with his life. I don't view that as kinslaying, Stannis was in the right.

Kinslaying isn't a crime, its an act. Regardless of whether or not Stannis was in the right its still Kinslaying

[E-Ro]

Its not self defence when you're the one to begins the hostilities, which Stannis did.

Renly declared himself king first and was starving out Stannis' capitol of KL, he started the aggression not Stannis.