Is Stannis a kinslayer?

[DurararaFTW]

he couldnt have defeated Joffrey in a swordfight.

Both Renly and Stannis would've destroyed Joffrey in a swordfight.

[The Wolves]

Both Renly and Stannis would've destroyed Joffrey in a swordfight.

Rickon Stark would have defeated Joffery in a swordfight

[Talleyrand]

I'd like to see proof that the common folk loved him.

In the Ned's execution chapter as they get called to the Sept of Baelor Arya hears a bunch of the common people talking about what happened - a bunch are blaming Robert's death on Ned and the Queen when someone suggests it was Renly you murdered his brother and gets told.

"You shut your lying mouth, woman. You don't know what you're saying, his lordship's a fine true man."

[Pyrrhus]

In the Ned's execution chapter as they get called to the Sept of Baelor Arya hears a bunch of the common people talking about what happened - a bunch are blaming Robert's death on Ned and the Queen when someone suggests it was Renly you murdered his brother and gets told.

"You shut your lying mouth, woman. You don't know what you're saying, his lordship's a fine true man."

One man thinks Renly is fine? I can think of one man who thinks Stannis is a fine true man, Davos for example, whom also happened to have been a small folk at one point. But if that's not good enough for you, well I can't speak for all the small folk, but the fact that a woman suggested Renly murdered his brother negates that one man thinks he's a good man.

[straits]

He is.

[DExit]

I believe he thinks himself innocent, but he is a kinslayer in some way, same as Rob and Theon, so yes.

[Eating My Wings]

Surely he is. But kinslaughter alone is merely a sin, whether it will be regarded as a crime or not depends on circumstances.

[Talleyrand]

One man thinks Renly is fine? I can think of one man who thinks Stannis is a fine true man, Davos for example, whom also happened to have been a small folk at one point. But if that's not good enough for you, well I can't speak for all the small folk, but the fact that a woman suggested Renly murdered his brother negates that one man thinks he's a good man.

"Renly was unhorsed so violently that he seemed to fly backwards off his charger, legs in the air. His head hit the ground with an audible crack that made the crowd gasp... When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly for King Robert's handsome young brother was a great favourite... the commons began to punch and claw over the little bit of gold, until Lord Renly walked out among them and restored the peace."

From Sansa's tourney chapter in Got. When Jaime Lannister gets unhorsed they laugh - when Renly gets unhorsed the people are gasping then in losing a match he gets a huge cheer from them, more than the Hound gets for beating him. Even after that he is able to calm the people down by himself.

[Pyrrhus]

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"Renly was unhorsed so violently that he seemed to fly backwards off his charger, legs in the air. His head hit the ground with an audible crack that made the crowd gasp... When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly for King Robert's handsome young brother was a great favourite... the commons began to punch and claw over the little bit of gold, until Lord Renly walked out among them and restored the peace."

From Sansa's tourney chapter in Got. When Jaime Lannister gets unhorsed they laugh - when Renly gets unhorsed the people are gasping then in losing a match he gets a huge cheer from them, more than the Hound gets for beating him. Even after that he is able to calm the people down by himself.

Well, I suppose that does prove me wrong, although I still think it's because the hound is hideously disfigured, where as Renly is this handsome young Robert. As I said before, small folks are fickle.. I can't remember anything in the books that indicates to me he ever truly cared about the small folks, although I don't doubt he was good at playing the game, smiling prettily and passing out a few coppers. Still, hard to argue with that. But people also cheered Tywin, if I'm not mistaken, and it's no secret Tywin cared for nothing besides the legacy of his family.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I can't see it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes ... sort of. Stannis won't have known the precise details of what would happen but, given his hopeless military situation, he was very obviously depending on some ploy of Melisandre's to bring him victory. He must have known what that method entailed very soon after Renly's death (he sent Mel to do the same thing with Penrose) but it's possible (and, in fact, likely) he neglected to be informed of this as regards all the details before he met with Renly.

Culpable ignorance really.

[E-Ro]

”Rise ser Davos,” Stannis commanded. “I have missed you ser. I have need of good counsel, and you never gave me less. So tell me true—what is the penalty for treason?” “Treason?” He finally managed, weakly. “What else would you call it, to deny your king and seek to steal his rightful throne. I ask you again—what is the penalty for treason under the law?” Davos had no choice but to answer. “Death,” he said. “The penalty is death, your grace.” “It has always been so. I am not… I am not a cruel man, ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long, this is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegons day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the vulture king, grand master Hareth… Traitors have always paid with their lives… even Rhaneyra Targeryan Se was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitors death for trying to usurp her brothers crown. It is law, Davos. Not cruelty.”

Yes, he is a kinslayer, but I dont think anyone in westeros cares if it was in self defense to protect your own life. As well there is precedence in westerosi law for killing family who rebel against the rightful heir. See Rhaneyra targeryan.

[rejndjer]

so he's not a kinslayer because renly was more adequate as a king?

just imagine what would've happened if he hadn't killed renly, there would be no saving for lannisters in KL, robb would've taken westerlands, tywin might've been captured when he ran to KL, and gods know what. what he did was because he felt he was done wrong by his brothers all his life(this i consider truth as well), but was it worth it?

also the way he killed renly was gay to say the least.(no offense meant to gays or anything, OTOH, considering renly was gay... ok i'll just stfu)

[MasterJack]

Kinslaying at war isnt a crime, Stannis've won a battle killing 1 guy (+brienne's victims).

100000+ victims or kinslaying?

same dilemma as Jaime

100000+ victims or kingslaying ?

:P

[Lord Damian]

Yes he is, without a doubt, however he did so as the true king to his younger, userping pretender. The Manner though, through black/blood magic and Mel is the true Wickedness in this. I think Renly would have killed Stannis if he had the chance.

[E-Ro]

Kinslaying at war isnt a crime, Stannis've won a battle killing 1 guy (+brienne's victims).

100000+ victims or kinslaying?

same dilemma as Jaime

100000+ victims or kingslaying ?

:P

Agreed. I really can't see why stannis should be faulted for self defense against a foe with way more men then him. Not to mention stannis was in the right in that whole se encounter.

[Talleyrand]

Yes, he is a kinslayer, but I dont think anyone in westeros cares if it was in self defense to protect your own life.

Really? Stannis killing Renly is self-defence? Stannis goes out of his way to go and attack Renly's holdings. Renly didn't rebel against Stannis, Stannis began the hostilities between to two by sailing to Storm's End and laying siege to it

[E-Ro]

Really? Stannis killing Renly is self-defence? Stannis goes out of his way to go and attack Renly's holdings. Renly didn't rebel against Stannis, Stannis began the hostilities between to two by sailing to Storm's End and laying siege to it

Yes, self defense against renly who entered into open conflict with stannis the moment he crowned himself. It was self defense, renly had 20k men stannis about 5 given the situation I would say killing renly and saving the lives of numerous soldiers was well worth it.

Another thing, stannis told renly he would attack at dawn, true to his word he did.

[Eating My Wings]

Really? Stannis killing Renly is self-defence? Stannis goes out of his way to go and attack Renly's holdings. Renly didn't rebel against Stannis, Stannis began the hostilities between to two by sailing to Storm's End and laying siege to it

You know, Renly was marching towards Stannis' capital back then.

[Scarlet Seastar]

This is why I am very undecided when it comes to Stannis. On one hand, he seems like a just man, on the other, I remember that Balon Greyjoy exiled Euron, rather than killing him. Sure, Renly had the army, and the love of the people, while Stannis was the true heir to the kingdom(no matter which way you put it, he was the heir at the moment of Robert's death), but I don't think the fact that Renly openly usurped him, instead of supporting his brother can somehow make up for the kinslaying crime.