Mind Altering Drugs Thread - Therapy, Legality

[Lummel]

Well why can't you say that? ... If our political system makes it inadvisable to tell the truth, then it is that system that needs to change, not David Nutt...

er, well, precisely.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the political system to change by transferring power away from itself.

[The Don Dadda]

er, well, precisely.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the political system to change by transferring power away from itself.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post but it seemed like you were agreeing with the reasoning behind him being sacked?

[Lummel]

I forgive you.

[Sci-2]

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post but it seemed like you were agreeing with the reasoning behind him being sacked?

Nah, he's saying the system has a vested interest in keep this kind of research down.

[Aemon Stark]

This would be amazing if it works. Thankfully heroin is not present where I live, but I have a buddy who went to the methadone clinic for opiate dependence. He was smart enough to get off the drug before too long, and was able to kick opiates as well. Methadone is no joke, there was actually someone in my community who overdosed on it not to long ago. From my understanding once your addicted to methadone your screwed. The drug is extremely powerful and damn near impossible to withdrawal from without medical help. Hopefully this will give people addicted to heroin and opiates a better alternative than a drug that you will take the rest of your life.

It's not any more "powerful" than the likes of heroin, except that the withdrawal phase is much slower and less acute. People most certainly get off methadone with slow tapers, and while you're right that medical help is necessary, that reflects what methadone programs are. The reason people overdose is because they are taking methadone outside of a formal addiction program. With methadone this can be extremely dangerous as it is meant to be used in the context of pre-existing opioid tolerance.

Anyway, I think suggesting psilocybins or other hallucinogens as a "cure" for opioid addiction is rather premature.

[Cabbageleafbastard]

It's not any more "powerful" than the likes of heroin, except that the withdrawal phase is much slower and less acute. People most certainly get off methadone with slow tapers, and while you're right that medical help is necessary, that reflects what methadone programs are. The reason people overdose is because they are taking methadone outside of a formal addiction program. With methadone this can be extremely dangerous as it is meant to be used in the context of pre-existing opioid tolerance.

Anyway, I think suggesting psilocybins or other hallucinogens as a "cure" for opioid addiction is rather premature.

How many drugs are currently prescribed to help people off of heroin addiction? One, and that's methadone, so if its as powerful as heroin, I would say its one of the most powerful drugs in the world. Once you start taking the drug everyday for a period of time you will most likely be taking it for life, or at least years. My post was directed at how helpful it would be to have an alternative, since I have never known anyone on heroin, I talked about opiate addiction. If you want to see how powerful methadone really is, type in methadone addiction on google, some of the stories might surprise you.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

From another forum, to balance things a bit:

Common drug fallacies:

A drug is what it is called or what you have been told it is: Unless you have a testing kit, you don't know. Anyone who has ever bought ecstacy knows this one. We can smell, touch, taste and see the substance, but we can't automatically identify what it is composed of.

Prohibition fallacy: It is commonly assumed that because drugs are prohibited, they must therefore actually be safe/good/a radical posture of defiant individualist heroics. Just because their harms are routinely exaggerated or theatricised does not therefore mean they are safe.

This is true, drug users tend to underestimate the dangers of drugs largely because of how teachers, police and politicians have so egregiously exaggerated the dangers of certain drugs, especially marijuana.

Creativity fallacy: Drugs do not enhance creative ability, only alter neuro physiology. This may or may not enhance ability in a favourable way.

Favorable is a pretty high standard, since most creative output, with or without drugs, is absolute shit. Altering your neuro physiology so that you can think differently than you normally do seems to me to be something that can help creativity in the early stages.

Feeling fallacy: what little effects of drug use we are able to consciously notice are not trustworthy markers of the total affects the drug is having. Cokeheads don't consciously intend to become hyper sexual gibbering creeps but it happens.

True, cokeheads are douchebags typically

The positive effects of a drug are usually temporary and override our rationality with cravings that make us neglect to consider long term consequences. If brain damage is the loss of neurological capabilities, then it stands to reason it would feel fun as hell. Being stupider is probably a welcome relief to everyone.

That's why so many people enjoy getting drunk. Many drugs are enjoyable outside of a reduction in inhibitions.

Control fallacy: we are not able to consciously control the effects drugs have on us. We can only notice their affects after the fact, and usually we have very poor insight even then.

Dopamine bias: I am too scientifically ignorant to speak on this, but would I be correct in saying most drugs release a short burst of pleasure chemicals which cause us to crave them in spite of other more detrimental affects?

Duh

Erowid bias: the tendency to attribute mystical or religious insight to a conscious state brought about by narcotics while remaining in total ignorance of the physical state of ones brain. It is not controversial to say that certain neurological states are responsible for our feelings of religious insight. A sounder method would be to scientifically deduce these rather than shovelling dubious plants into our stomachs and hoping for the best.

I'm a pretty strict materialist, so my position is that it's impossible to scientifically or logically deduce religious insight. Nevertheless, I was able to enjoy spiritual experiences using certain drugs despite later attributing them to the drugs.

Also, mushrooms aren't a plant :P

Overall, I don't think it's worth it to try any of the uppers or downers, like cocaine, or pain pills for the experience. Coke can give you a rush, but it's really not even as good as the rush you get after acing a test, winning tough pickup basketball game, getting your dream job, or a first kiss. Psychelics, on the other hand, are almost completely unlike any unaltered experience I've ever had, so I definitely think they were worth trying.

[Sci-2]

Overall, I don't think it's worth it to try any of the uppers or downers, like cocaine, or pain pills for the experience. Coke can give you a rush, but it's really not even as good as the rush you get after acing a test, winning tough pickup basketball game, getting your dream job, or a first kiss. Psychelics, on the other hand, are almost completely unlike any unaltered experience I've ever had, so I definitely think they were worth trying.

Yeah, I think there are lots of considerations to take into, and the dangers of street drugs being cut is also a problem.

Tying into the balanced outlook, was looking at discussion of a book by one Dan Carpenter on experience different realities while on DXM and his mother actually [apparently?] commented:

...Dan believed that everything he experienced under the DXM trips was real but whether it was truth or simply his brain responding to large amounts of DXM, I don’t know. I do believe that all of those trips in fact damaged his brain to the extent that he began drinking again. His searching by the use of DXM was so detrimental to his mental health that he slid into despair. It certainly wasn’t worth the search. I don’t have my son anymore, and I miss him terribly. My only hope now is that people who read these types of books DON’T try it.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Yeah, I think there are lots of considerations to take into, and the dangers of street drugs being cut is also a problem.

Tying into the balanced outlook, was looking at discussion of a book by one Dan Carpenter on experience different realities while on DXM and his mother actually [apparently?] commented:

Oh yeah, There are definitely risks and dangers. That's why I'm not tripping on acid right now, and probably won't again for the rest of my life.

[rsbarx]

I only saw ibogaine passingly mentioned in this thread.

If taken, a heroin addict will go through an intense dreamstate/trip/O.B.E. but will not have to go through the withdrawal syndrome nor the post acute withdrawal syndrome that lasts for years. Possibly forever. That is, IBOGAINE SAVES HEROIN ADDICTS FROM THE MAIN REASON HEROIN ADDICTS STAY HEROIN ADDICTS. That, to me, is the most magical, miraculous, otherworldly, divine, inexplicably amazing thing on the planet that we've discovered so far. It's illegal in this country and belgium. But is used to treat addicts everywhere else in the world basically. It's still pretty unheard of. But it should be on the front pages. How it is barely discussed even in this thread is beyond me. We're talking not just giving people a change of heart out of an intense experience, but literal, physical/physiological release from the slavery of opiate/opioid addiction. It's the grand sacrament of the Bwiti tribes of Gabon, where it's found in Africa. Watch this documentary (below) if you please, I always liked this review (also below) of an experience especially. It's mighty interesting. I've been working towards a journey to Mexico to try it myself, but there's been a lot of obstacles there for me.

Interesting "trip"/treatment review:

I found myself staring at a large grey screen. Something was moving in the corner of my eye but I couldn’t make it out. My uneasiness was transformed into enthusiasm and I waited for what was to come next. In a split second, everything changed. I found myself standing in the middle of a dense forest watching as 18th century carriages rolled by. Everything was shown in hyper-realistic detail. I could see the nostrils flaring on the horses, the driver juggling a lantern while he tugged on the reins, the knots on the ropes that held down the luggage. I was so stunned by the realism that I opened my eyes. I remember thinking, “wow, so this is what it’s actually like.”

I soon realized however, that by opening my eyes, I had accidently cleared away the vision and there was no going back. It’s my one regret that I was unable to follow the carriages. I know in my heart that it was the beginning of my ancestor progression – the part of the journey where past family members come before me in vivid detail.

Full:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=76892

[rsbarx]

SPOILER ASOIAF/ADWD SPOILER But on topic/related to psychedelics

____________________________________________________

When I read the Bran chapter where he ate the weirwood paste, I saw a ton of parallels to a lot of stuff I'd read about ibogaine specifically. I'm sure someone has discussed this in relation to psychedelic experiences before, but eating a vile tasting paste of magical roots, and then "becoming one"/"becoming a part of" a tree and then nature and then having a vision of ones ancestors and being able to see back into time, it almost seemed like "haha, George Martin DEFINITELY has heard of ibogaine or ayahuasca or something." It seems really, oddly familiar. I could possibly. maybe. be reaching. but come on, it's not THAT crazy, if only coincidental.

[Aemon Stark]

How many drugs are currently prescribed to help people off of heroin addiction? One, and that's methadone, so if its as powerful as heroin, I would say its one of the most powerful drugs in the world. Once you start taking the drug everyday for a period of time you will most likely be taking it for life, or at least years. My post was directed at how helpful it would be to have an alternative, since I have never known anyone on heroin, I talked about opiate addiction. If you want to see how powerful methadone really is, type in methadone addiction on google, some of the stories might surprise you.

There are a couple other opioid agonists or mixed agonists/antagonists in use, but methadone is certainly the mainstay of treatment. I'm not sure what you mean by "powerful", as methadone has completely different pharmacokinetics than heroin (slower onset, much longer duration of action, much slower, less acute withdrawal, considerably less "high").

I've certainly had lots of patients with addictions to opioids of some form or another. This is not an easy problem to deal with, and it's worth noting that ibogaine is also an opioid agonist.

[Honey Badger]

The dopamine thing is real but overrated. Virtually all enjoyable activities trigger dopamine; not just drugs. Kissing your girlfriend gives you dopamine. Watching St. Louis beat Chicago gives all decent people dopamine.

True, but the dosage is completely different. Exercise, sex, and foods that increase happiness can be done safely for life, and are fairly mild. Hardcore drugs hit you hard with high levels, but destroy the receptor sites in the brain until the person is unable to feel joy. Suicidal thoughts often result from this.

That documentary on Ibogaine was fascinating but very contradictory. In parts, it seemed to be saying that the substance was pretty much a cure and then at other times it was emphasized that it was not a magic bullet and just an addiction "interuptor."

My guess with Ibogaine is it masks the symptoms of withdrawal while you're under the spell of Ibogaine for a few days, then you're clean when it's all over. It's not too different from a medically induced coma or replacement therapy that treats the withdrawal symptoms until you kick. At least it's better than methadone. My understanding is that kicking isn't the tough part, but staying off through mental health therapy once you're stuck back in the real world. For those who haven't seen it, there are docs out there that filmed the detox period. Essentially, they're throwing up a lot and sick in bed for a few days. It's not a happy "pop a pill and you're fine" treatment.

The Ibogaine treatment for the time being is to get a shaman to dose you. In other words, not much science involved at this point. We need more research.

[Sci-2]

Trip, a short film by VJSuave.

Interesting argument. ;-)

[Sci-2]

LSD is good for you, say Norway researchers

"There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, or use of LSD in the past year, and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes," Pål-Ørjan Johansen and Teri Krebs from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim concluded in their study published in the PLOS One journal on Tuesday.

"Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with a lower rate of mental health problems."

As someone almost violently attacked by a person on LSD, I'm still against recreational use or self-medication. Why I'm not overly sad the website Silk Road has been seized.

[Weeping Sore]

As someone almost violently attacked by a person on LSD, I'm still against recreational use or self-medication.

Sorry to hear that, Sci. Also, good thing alcohol is legal as drunk people are never violent.

(I know- you don't drink either. Sigh.)

[Sci-2]

Sorry to hear that, Sci. Also, good thing alcohol is legal as drunk people are never violent.

(I know- you don't drink either. Sigh.)

Alcohol does make people violent, but AFAIK it doesn't usually make people act as if reality had changed around them.

The guy attacked me thought he was in Hell and he had to escape. He ran around in our neighborhood until ten cops subdued him. Just lucky he didn't hurt any little kids.

I think the contained exploration of all this stuff is worthwhile, but people should be wary of taking hallucinogens in a situation where a bad trip can lead to them inadvertently hurting others.

[Dinsdale!]

There is in the UK - where Dr Nutt is from. You can do research, but it has to be under license from the Home Office - which seeing as you are talking about illegal substances doesn't on the face of it seem wildly unreasonable. That he can't provide a compelling enough case to persuade the Home Office to license the research he is interested in doing is probably several other stories. iirc he is the guy who said that horse riding is more dangerous than some kinds of drugs which politically you just can't say :dunno:

In the USA there was a rather famous research study about DMT. The PI published a book about it called "The Spirit Molecule." So even on this side of the ocean, such studies are hard to do but not impossible.

In any case, this is a link to David Nutt's paper

http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf

And here's the key figure if you want it:

http://download.thelancet.com/images/journalimages/0140-6736/PIIS0140673610614626.gr4.lrg.jpg

By his metrics, Alcohol is the worst drug in effects on society and fourth in danger to yourself (after Meth, Crack and Heroin). This seems correct to me.

[Dinsdale!]

Alcohol does make people violent, but AFAIK it doesn't usually make people act as if reality had changed around them.

The guy attacked me thought he was in Hell and he had to escape. He ran around in our neighborhood until ten cops subdued him. Just lucky he didn't hurt any little kids.

I think the contained exploration of all this stuff is worthwhile, but people should be wary of taking hallucinogens in a situation where a bad trip can lead to them inadvertently hurting others.

Via wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance-induced_psychosis

• F10.5 alcohol:^[1][2][3] Alcohol is a common cause of psychotic disorders or episodes, which may occur through acute intoxication, chronic alcoholism, withdrawal, exacerbation of existing disorders, or acute idiosyncratic reactions.^[4] Research has shown that alcohol abuse causes an 8-fold increased risk of psychotic disorders in men and a 3 fold increased risk of psychotic disorders in women.^[5][6] While the vast majority of cases are acute and resolve fairly quickly upon treatment and/or abstinence, they can occasionally become chronic and persistent.^[4] Alcoholic psychosis is sometimes misdiagnosed as another mental illness such asschizophrenia.^[7]

Alcohol withdrawal is particularly associated with hallucinogenic episodes:

(e.g. the delirium tremens)

Long term alcoholism is associated with progressive nerve damage.

[Weeping Sore]

Alcohol does make people violent, but AFAIK it doesn't usually make people act as if reality had changed around them.

The guy attacked me thought he was in Hell and he had to escape. He ran around in our neighborhood until ten cops subdued him. Just lucky he didn't hurt any little kids.

I think the contained exploration of all this stuff is worthwhile, but people should be wary of taking hallucinogens in a situation where a bad trip can lead to them inadvertently hurting others.

Are you sure it was LSD? Sounds more like PCP or Bath Salts. Though I suppose it could have been some kind of adulterated LSD, or a person with an already shaky grip on reality. I guarantee that even if you were envisioning being in Hell, you would remember that you had just taken a psychedelic drug, and would act accordingly.

Or even if you were completely convinced, you would probably just go up to a stranger and say, "Very well, malevolent functionary, take me to my designated chamber of Hell. I am prepared for eternity."