Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[Lady Lea]

Unless being called son and brother or nephew does not deem you related or family than I don't know what does. Just because Jon did not have the Stark name does not mean he is not family to the Starks they do call him that. And yes Jon does have a right to be at Winterfell because Ned chose to give him that right. And there are other examples of bastards in Westeros being brought up by their father and along side their true born siblings

Being trueborn makes you part of the family.

Ned ALLOWED him to stay at Winterfell and at any moment could have decided to send him away. A right implies something enforceable. Jon did not have a right to stay there, he had permission. Different things. What would amount to give Jon that right was to legitimise him, something Ned never did.

And no, I don't think you'll find many examples of bastards being brought up like Jon was. I don't mean only living at Winterfell but all the perks Jon had.

[the trees have eyes]

He is NOT a part of the Stark family as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread. His name is SNOW. Even Jon himself knows he is not a Stark. There is no such thing as bastard rights in Westeros, he had no right to anything, let alone live in Winterfell and live as his trueborn sibling. That simply does not exist!!! You didn't see Ramsay go on to the Dreadfort saying "I have a RIGHT to live here and be treated as Domeric", nor that girl from the Reach saying "father you have no right to make me your servant because I am your daughter" or Mya and Edric marching over to the Red Keep saying "King Robert I have a RIGHT to be raised in here along with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen and Cersei should learn to accept us and treat us with love and kindness".

Catelyn did not decide Jon's fate, Westerosi society did. How Ned brought Jon up was completely atypical and if you can't understand that, I'm not sure how you even read these books tbh.

Quite. I would think that the example of Gendry and Edric Storm should be educational as to what a nobleman's bastard can expect: to be provided for, perhaps even remembered by a gift or a letter on his birthday but most emphatically and unequivocally not taken home and treated as part of the family. Ned is unique here, Cateyn is not. I can only think that people are unwilling or unable to shift from the mental position that as Jon was raised there it was his home, Ned is his father, the others are his brothers and sisters, he is part of the family. It looks simple if you think about it that way but it is plain wrong. Bastardy is not a concept we really acknowledge any more and this seems to be the crux of the problem: some people cannot imagine that Jon is not part of the family and therefore Catelyn must be monstrous to abuse or neglect him and hold this "grudge" against him all his life. Really it's simple if you look at it the other way: he is not part of the family and she does not accept him as such because she never thinks of him that way. She isn't making a herculean effort to differentiate him, he is different, he is not a Stark and that is how she treats him.

[Cinder Stark]

Unless being called son and brother or nephew does not deem you related or family than I don't know what does. Just because Jon did not have the Stark name does not mean he is not family to the Starks they do call him that. And yes Jon does have a right to be at Winterfell because Ned chose to give him that right. And there are other examples of bastards in Westeros being brought up by their father and along side their true born siblings

If Cat was all about "family, duty, honor", maybe she should have honored her husband, been a dutiful wife and did what was right for her family by getting over the whole Jon issue. Jon was her husbands kid, Ned wanted Jon there, raised alongside his other half siblings. Since Ned was the head of house Stark, and by rights called the shots, Cat should have fallen in line, after all it's the Seven Kingdoms, a feudal society. We cannot apply common sense or modern values to a feudal society.

[Cinder Stark]

Quite. I would think that the example of Gendry and Edric Storm should be educational as to what a nobleman's bastard can expect: to be provided for, perhaps even remembered by a gift or a letter on his birthday but most emphatically and unequivocally not taken home and treated as part of the family. Ned is unique here, Cateyn is not. I can only think that people are unwilling or unable to shift from the mental position that as Jon was raised there it was his home, Ned is his father, the others are his brothers and sisters, he is part of the family. It looks simple if you think about it that way but it is plain wrong. Bastardy is not a concept we really acknowledge any more and this seems to be the crux of the problem: some people cannot imagine that Jon is not part of the family and therefore Catelyn must be monstrous to abuse or neglect him and hold this "grudge" against him all his life. Really it's simple if you look at it the other way: he is not part of the family and she does not accept him as such because she never thinks of him that way. She isn't making a herculean effort to differentiate him, he is different, he is not a Stark and that is how she treats him.

The sand snakes in Dorne were raised along side their royal cousins with their father. Cat's behavior was cray, cray. Come on, 14 years of hate, she forgave Ned, the cause but holds this insane hostility towards Jon.

[Sansa_Stark]

Not to mention the only reason Robert didn't keep Mya around was because Cersei threatened to kill her.

[The Wolves]

If Cat was all about "family, duty, honor", maybe she should have honored her husband, been a dutiful wife and did what was right for her family by getting over the whole Jon issue. Jon was her husbands kid, Ned wanted Jon there, raised alongside his other half siblings. Since Ned was the head of house Stark, and by rights called the shots, Cat should have fallen in line, after all it's the Seven Kingdoms, a feudal society. We cannot apply common sense or modern values to a feudal society.

I don't agree that Catelyn should have just accepted Jon for her family's sake. Catelyn did her duty as a mother, wife and Lady of Winterfell she in no way owes Jon anything. People are right Jon is not Catelyn's family(thank gawd)and she shouldn't act like it for anybody's sake besides her own. I also think she has a right to feel anger and resentment but it should not be directed at Jon. Catelyn couldn't direct her anger and resentment onto Ned so she chose Jon and she was wrong for that. Catelyn was not wrong in the way she felt just she directed her feelings towards the wrong person.

[Lady Lea]

If Cat was all about "family, duty, honor", maybe she should have honored her husband, been a dutiful wife and did what was right for her family by getting over the whole Jon issue. Jon was her husbands kid, Ned wanted Jon there, raised alongside his other half siblings

Why should she if he didn't honor her? He didn't honor her when he fathered a bastard and he didn't honor her everyday he let Jon stay at Winterfell.

Since Ned was the head of house Stark, and by rights called the shots, Cat should have fallen in line, after all it's the Seven Kingdoms, a feudal society. We cannot apply common sense or modern values to a feudal society.

Yet by Westeros values he is wrong and she is right, so why are you applying modern values that dictate bastards can be raised along with trueborn siblings?

[The Wolves]

Being trueborn makes you part of the family.

Than what is Jon to the Starks?

[the trees have eyes]

If Cat was all about "family, duty, honor", maybe she should have honored her husband, been a dutiful wife and did what was right for her family by getting over the whole Jon issue. Jon was her husbands kid, Ned wanted Jon there, raised alongside his other half siblings. Since Ned was the head of house Stark, and by rights called the shots, Cat should have fallen in line, after all it's the Seven Kingdoms, a feudal society. We cannot apply common sense or modern values to a feudal society.

"Get over the whole Jon issue". Come on. It is tiresome pointing out the same thing over and over again but bastards are not raised alongside their siblings. The reason for this is plain and simple: to be born the wrong side of the sheets means you are NOT part of the family. That is why a bastard cannot take their father's name without a royal decree. Ned can't legitimise Jon. Only Robert can. On top of that raising a bastard alongside your wife's children is a pretty obvious insult to her and her family. This is not a child form a previous relationship it is a child Ned fathered after he married her and treated as equal to her own. that is not how things are done in a feudal society where primogeniture is key and inheritance is predicated on legitimate birth. It is unheard of and a major obstacle to their marriage getting off on a good footing. "Get over the whole Jon issue", you make it sound like an argument over dinner. It is an entirely unprecedented action by Ned

[Lady Lea]

Than what is Jon to the Starks?

Not family.

[Sansa_Stark]

Not family.

Only to Lady Stark of course.

I'm sure Arya, Robb, Rickon, Bran, and Ned would have told you something completely different at the start of AGOT.

[Cinder Stark]

I don't agree that Catelyn should have just accepted Jon for her family's sake. Catelyn did her duty as a mother, wife and Lady of Winterfell she in no way owes Jon anything. People are right Jon is not Catelyn's family(thank gawd)and she shouldn't act like it for anybody's sake besides her own. I also think she has a right to feel anger and resentment but it should not be directed at Jon. Catelyn couldn't direct her anger and resentment onto Ned so she chose Jon and she was wrong for that. Catelyn was not wrong in the way she felt just she directed her feelings towards the wrong person.

Really, Cat was not wrong in directing her resentment at Ned, the cause. I'm sorry, Ned heads house Stark, if Cat was all dutiful she would have done her duty to Ned and her kids and got over it!! Cat's behavior unintentionally hurt her family, not just Jon.

Why couldn't she direct her anger at Ned?

[Wanderer]

Ah no, some people ie, ME, feel that Cat as an adult should have taken her ish out on Ned the other adult who caused the whole situation and not a defenseless, blameless child Jon. Wrong is wrong, Cat doesn't get a pass on this, full stop. Like Jamie throwing Bran out a tower window, somethings can't be explained away no matter how "good" or "bad" a character. No one is talikg about "motherly" instinct, it's a matter of common decency, humanity in whatever century, fantasy novel or other.

Well said. This has nothing to do with being a woman at all. If I could somehow reverse these genders I would hold the exact same judgement. I am not here to vilify Cat. She is actually one of the most moral characters in Westeros IMO. However, where it concerns Jon I feel she let's petty jealousy get the better of her. She has every right to be incredibly pissed off about her incredibly unfair situation. its just that she absolutely should have focused her anger at Ned.

[Lady Lea]

Only to Lady Stark of course.

I'm sure Arya, Robb, Rickon, Bran, and Ned would have told you something completely different at the start of AGOT.

LEGALLY he is not family, regardless of the affection individual members of the Stark family may feel for him.

[Cinder Stark]

"Get over the whole Jon issue". Come on. It is tiresome pointing out the same thing over and over again but bastards are not raised alongside their siblings. The reason for this is plain and simple: to be born the wrong side of the sheets means you are NOT part of the family. That is why a bastard cannot take their father's name without a royal decree. Ned can't legitimise Jon. Only Robert can. On top of that raising a bastard alongside your wife's children is a pretty obvious insult to her and her family. This is not a child form a previous relationship it is a child Ned fathered after he married her and treated as equal to her own. that is not how things are done in a feudal society where primogeniture is key and inheritance is predicated on legitimate birth. It is unheard of and a major obstacle to their marriage getting off on a good footing. "Get over the whole Jon issue", you make it sound like an argument over dinner. It is an entirely unprecedented action by Ned

Ok your point? If Ned could do something so unorthodox, why not Cat?! I'm just holding Cat to her actions. It's really beyond me how people can justify Cat's treatment of Jon. Cat should have taken it out on Ned or simply gotten over it for her family's sake. It is rather simple for me.

Cat's lucky, since Winterfell is in the north and NOBODY visits, not even King Robert visited in like forever, her humiliation wasn't all that public. She could have worked through the whole Jon issue.

[The Wolves]

Not family.

I got that from your post but what is he to them when Arya's thoughts about him being the brother she missed the most or when she thought no one would want her but he would? What is he to them when Summer saved him and Bran prayed for him to be kept safe? What is he to them when Robb declared Jon the only brother he had left? What is he to them when Sansa longed to see the only brother she thought she had left in the world? What is he to any Stark when they believe that they are the only ones left? What is he to them when Ned called Jon his son and said that they share the same blood?

If being called brother, son, or nephew does not make you part of a family than what is Jon to the Starks? Serious question

[the trees have eyes]

The sand snakes in Dorne were raised along side their royal cousins with their father. Cat's behavior was cray, cray. Come on, 14 years of hate, she forgave Ned, the cause but holds this insane hostility towards Jon.

Oberyn is unmarried and has no legitimate children. His bastards are not flung in his wife's face or equated with her own children. There is no insane hostility. She does not acknowledge that this bastard is part of her family because he isn't. In my opinion this is entirely rational and understandable and she is well within her rights to do so. I think you are projecting the wrong thing. you are projecting the hurt Catelyn would have felt at Ned's infidelity and assuming this is the barrier to her welcoming Jon. It is not. It is of course a contributory cause of her discomfort around him (he reminds her of her shame if you will) but the barrier to her welcoming him is that he is not her son, he is a bastard not a Stark and he does not belong. If that sounds harsh I'm sorry but this is an era of dynastic succession and a bastard is not a member of the nobleman's family.

[Lady Lea]

I got that from your post but what is he to them when Arya's thoughts about him being the brother she missed the most or when she thought no one would want her but he would? What is he to them when Summer saved him and Bran prayed for him to be kept safe? What is he to them when Robb declared Jon the only brother he had left? What is he to them when Sansa longed to see the only brother she thought she had left in the world? What is he to any Stark when they believe that they are the only ones left? What is he to them when Ned called Jon his son and said that they share the same blood?

If being called brother, son, or nephew does not make you part of a family than what is Jon to the Starks? Serious question

See my post above.

[The Wolves]

See my post above.

No I still don't get how legally he is not considered their family and he is legally not considered a Stark. The Stark's don't share their last name yet they consider the Tully's family. Ned declared Robert Arryn family though he shares no blood relation.

The Starks DID consider Jon as family and no I'm not counting Catelyn cause she is no Stark. But let's not dwell on why he isn't legally considered family because I have never heard of it like this and I still don't get it.

[The Wolves]

Only to Lady Stark of course.

I'm sure Arya, Robb, Rickon, Bran, and Ned would have told you something completely different at the start of AGOT.

Sansa considered him family too and Benjen