AFFC/ADWD Hate?

[Toxspecific]

Still enjoying every bit of it. The show itself was kind of a spoiler and I couldn't discuss it without book readers talking about Tywin actually not shitting gold, "contrary to popular belief," as one example among others. So I am on board for the whole ride now, I guess.

Nope you pretty much ruined the element of surprise for yourself. Mad as hell decision, to get spoilers of your own will. lol

[King of Winters]

The only one that I didn't like was AFFC because I thought it dragged a bit and it was a bit boring for me because it didn't have any of my favourite characters except Jaime. I liked ADWD more.

[Joyful Union]

My first major issue with both aFfC and DwD is...No fucking climax! GRRM had a great climax with two huge battles for DwD, but no, it had to go in the next book. There's no real self contained ending for either of the books. At least it means that WoW will be good.

My second, is overuse of cliffhangers. Leaving every character's arc on a cliffhanger is a bit much. I preferred when the first three books had a clear beginning and end for the characters.

My third, is lack of shocking deaths. Hardy anyone important dies in the two books (disregarding Quentyn), and I sorely miss that. All the fake out deaths just aren't surprising any more. Not for a second did I believe Davos was dead.

Fourth, Dorne. Did we really need an Arys Oakheart chapter? Way to much time spent in this place.

I enjoyed everything between, but these three points sorely try my love of these books.

[gash]

i really enjoyed AFFC because my expectations were quite low, having read a few bad reviews beforehand and friends telling me it was a struggle.

[kephv]

I enjoyed both, but there's no denying that he set a pace in the first three that he just couldn't match in the next two. Mainly, I think it's to do with the 5 year gap problems, and the way he had to split the books because of PoV congestion (though he seems to have made strides towards alleviating this at the end of Dance).

Dance I think was the series low point, even though it had some of his best work yet. And judging from the sample chapters he's released for Winds, it's appears the threads he was weaving in the last two books are finally coming together, which should be really good if he pulls it off.

My first major issue with both aFfC and DwD is...No fucking climax! GRRM had a great climax with two huge battles for DwD, but no, it had to go in the next book. There's no real self contained ending for either of the books.

Considering they're really one long book, there is. For Dance it's Dany's flight on Drogon and Theon's flight from the walls of Winterfell -- "I flew!" Indeed. And there's also the release of the dragons in Quentyn's PoV. And yes, Dance did end, though it felt more like a sudden slam on the brakes than a natural resolution.

Fourth, Dorne. Did we really need an Arys Oakheart chapter?

I've even heard GRRM question that, said he should've maybe used Arianne instead. I think it's part of the left over from the 200 page original prologue he was planning.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I really like them, though I understand the complaints and I can't stand Dany's chapters in ADwD.

[LyannaStargaryen]

I said this in another thread and have said it often, but I think that AFFC benefits greatly from rereads. It certainly did for me, when first reading it I did not appreciate it to the same amount that I do now. ADWD aswell benefits from rereads, but generally I think that book is weaker than AFFC.

These are my feelings exactly. However, I would say that while AFFC is better written, I definitely enjoy ADWD more overall: the Bran, Theon, Jon, Jaime parts were outstanding, I loved the payoff in Dany's end chapters (but disliked most of her arc in Meereen), and enjoyed the prologue, epilogue, and most of Davos, Tyrion and Arya's POVs.

I disliked both books a lot compared to the first three, but I also read all five back to back to back to back to back: I had never read ASOIAF until ADWD came out, and I wanted to read the whole series before the show began. I'm on my third re-read of the series now, and AFFC and ADWD have improved dramatically in my opinion, but still lack the pacing, excitement, huge movements in plot and character development, and consistently solid prose of the first three books.

[Lord Reaver]

I believe the reason why AfFC often gives a bad impression on first reads is the expectation that the primary storylines will be followed in the same manner as they were in the previous books.

When this does not happen, many readers seem to react with antipathy.

But it is quite clear what GRRM is doing in this book, he's world building and "filling in" some of the hitherto completely undescribed parts of Westeros such as the Iron Islands and Dorne. Naturally, if your interest is in the "main characters" and storyline, this will seem redundant and something that could have been "skimmed off". However, if your interests, like mine, are more in the world-building aspect, these chapters are very interesting and entertaining.

I think more people get that bit on rereads, since they have no expectations about the main story to be dashed, and are then free to judge the chapters on their own merits rather than comparing them to "what should have been".

[David Selig]

They shouldn't be lumped together. AFFC is way better. ADWD is easily the worst book in the series. Theon's arc is great, a few other chapters are high quality, the rest is really not up to the standards of the rest of the series IMO.

[Flayed Starkman]

I really think most of the negativity towards AFFC/ADWD will go away after ASOIAF is finished. We haven't had a chance to see the pay off from those two books yet.

This is how I feel. Although it was damn disappointing to not get any pay-off, at all from ADWD.

[Toxspecific]

ADWD returns the rivalry theme which was such an asset of the series. Over the first four books we went from Stark vs Lannister, Dany vs Essos (back when it didn't suck), Stannis vs Lannisters etc to Cersei vs Paranoia, Jaime vs Lack of Hand and pretty much that in AFFC.

In ADWD we have Stannis looming over the Boltons. Good old rivalry and intensity being restored.

[Goldhand the Just]

I liked both as much as any in the series. Really enjoyed the look behind the curtains in Cersei's chapters. Also I really enjoyed a look into Dorne.

[Grip]

ADWD returns the rivalry theme which was such an asset of the series. Over the first four books we went from Stark vs Lannister, Dany vs Essos (back when it didn't suck), Stannis vs Lannisters etc to Cersei vs Paranoia, Jaime vs Lack of Hand and pretty much that in AFFC.

In ADWD we have Stannis looming over the Boltons. Good old rivalry and intensity being restored.

Yeah, the northern arc in ADWD was the best or atleast the most interesting part of the book imo. The chapters of Davos, Jon, Theon etc were all good.

[Gannicus]

AFFC and ADWD are only hated in comparison to the first three. There are some obvious reasons.

1) People wait years between these books only to see their favorite characters omitted.

2) 2000 pages is a lot to go through with for a small payoff in regards to plot. Really ask yourself what has really changed since the end of ADWD?

3) The number of new POVs is good in regards to information but it makes for a really meandering pace.

[The Great Walrus]

Honestly the hate comes from Dany and Tyrion not really doing anything of importance for most of Dance, and the Ironborn and Dornish chapters in Feast.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Both books feel like unfinished halves to one book, with schizophrenic pacing and an over-saturation of new characters and places that only make the story more bloated and less focused. That's my main gripe. They're good nonetheless, but are a noticeable drop in quality following the tremendous first three books of the series.

[Joyful Union]

2) 2000 pages is a lot to go through with for a small payoff in regards to plot. Really ask yourself what has really changed since the end of ADWD?

I agree that there is small payoff. But i think things have changed. Jon is out of the picture for a while. Aegon's landing in the Stormlands is pretty big (though I think that storyline was poorly handled, there was no foreshadowing, it just felt tacked on). Otherwise, I agree, not nearly enough happened. If the two battles had been included, maybe this could have be forgiven,.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I agree that there is small payoff. But i think things have changed. Jon is out of the picture for a while. Aegon's landing in the Stormlands is pretty big (though I think that storyline was poorly handled, there was no foreshadowing, it just felt tacked on)

Agree on Aegon. Was he really necessary? And wouldn't it be better to introduce him AFTER Daenerys has reached Westeros? Why should we care about Dany when she can't even control her own dragons, and has driven a city to a far worse state than it was before she arrived? Based on what Varys says, why should we continue rooting for Daenerys, when Aegon seems to have all the right qualities to be a king? And why are setting ourselves up for a second Dance of the Dragons, with only 2 books left, WITH THE OTHERS NOT HAVING CROSSED THE WALL YET?

[Beorn Snow]

They should really be one book. The problem isn´t the writing but the structure of the books.

AGOT is a whole story, a hero rises to power, discovers a terrible secret and dies after making horrible mistakes.

The next two also have similar journeys, AFFC starts many arcs but doesn´t end them. It will be better in context, because it´s not an independent work but a prelude to bigger things.

[Joyful Union]

Agree on Aegon. Was he really necessary? And wouldn't it be better to introduce him AFTER Daenerys has reached Westeros? Why should we care about Dany when she can't even control her own dragons, and has driven a city to a far worse state than it was before she arrived? Based on what Varys says, why should we continue rooting for Daenerys, when Aegon seems to have all the right qualities to be a king? And why are setting ourselves up for a second Dance of the Dragons, with only 2 books left, WITH THE OTHERS NOT HAVING CROSSED THE WALL YET?

I think this second Dance of Dragons could be interesting, but does GRRM have time to deal with it? Actually, I think that GRRM's intention is for us to no longer root for Daenarys , or at least for Daenarys to reevaluate her goals. I guess Aegon getting toasted would be cool. DwD just confirmed for me what I'd suspected all along: Daenarys would be an awful queen. As far as I'm concerned, I'm on team Aegon.