Heresy 52

[Black Crow]

I have a question for the Eddas experts on here... do any of you know if the real and beautiful phenomenon of the aurora borealis was the inspiration for the Bifrost? As such, the Bifrost is celestial, and the Wall "extends into the heavens" (or something like that, can't exactly remember what Tyrion described it as)

Also, while reading about the Norse gods, I came across Freyr, or Frey, which was a god asociated with virility :D loll

I think our Frey has quite a bit of evidence of his virility, no? :lol:

(ok, trying to keep up this time... )

Freyja/Frigg was certainly associated with virility. A female goddess of course but cut the name down to Frey and GRRM has his little joke. I'm not so sure about the aurora though, I'm more into the Celtic side, but I'm sure somebody will be able to help.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Is it still god-like if it's severely flawed?

Depends on which religion you look at--for instance, almost every Greek myth has at least one god(dess) or another failing and being severely flawed

[Tyryan Lannister]

Freyja/Frigg was certainly associated with virility. A female goddess of course but cut the name down to Frey and GRRM has his little joke. I'm not so sure about the aurora though, I'm more into the Celtic side, but I'm sure somebody will be able to help.

Considering that 1) the locations of the Nine Worlds relative to one-another has the "fire" worlds south of Midgard and the "ice" worlds north of Midgard, thus establishing a basis for the locations of the Nine Worlds in real world geography (fire worlds in the warmer south and ice worlds in the colder north) and 2) that, in an alternative view of the Worlds, the "fire" worlds are in the heavens above Midgard and the "ice" worlds are in the underworlds beneath Midgard, we have two situations which when combined give a very reasonable interpretation of the Bifrost as stemming from the borealis

[Black Wolf Smith]

back on the 9 thing, was watching Vikings on the History channel, and they had a big brew ha ha where they were making sacrifices of different animals. Goats, sheeps, and People among them. Each was grouped in 9's.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps inconsequential but the significance is also emphasised in the old way of rendering 99 as ninety and nine.

Either way, Craster wasn't making such an issue of his sons for nothing...

[Lannister Hamster]

How does Bran manipulate the past?

He can see through the trees, and the trees can see the past. That I get.

Seeing is a lot different than influencing though.

[brut]

I'm very wary of him manipulating past events in Westeros let alone Essos because here we're straying into god-like powers, the very thing GRRM has re-assured us we're not going to get.

Fully with Black Crow on this. We should probably go easy on the whole time-traveling-omnipresent-past-manipulation hoopla. Bran undeniably has powers, although not of the scale or scope to rehash history. As a POV he is perfectly positioned to give us the Westerosi history lesson, reveal enigma behind CoTF and the WW, put the LoAW and LoAS into a perspective, put an end to the debate of who the Three Eyed Crow, and do other things while awesomely warging Summer or Hodor.

[Black Crow]

How does Bran manipulate the past?

He can see through the trees, and the trees can see the past. That I get.

Seeing is a lot different than influencing though.

Exactly so; Brut puts it very nicely

[Daenerys Flint]

Tricky keeping up with these threads isn’t it? :) @ Black Crow – Thanks for directing me to timelines essay in Heresy 50. Very interesting. But I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the basic assumption that since Rhoynar / Andal invasions could potentially be condensed, that the older timelines should be too. There is real world evidence but I’m still wary of it since this is fantasy.

@Lannister Hamster / King Tyrion VI / Bear Claw / Efilnikufesin

Weirwoods do have a far reaching influence – even into the Eastern continents – although not as extensively. The Weirwood chairs in the HoB&W are very telling though ;)

There are also lots of ways of ‘influencing’ events that we have already seen: Dreams, burning swords breaking, the weather, visions / voices in flames etc…

Regardless of what GRRM has said about god-like powers. The evidence is pretty simple: Bran does have god-like powers. We know two important things from DwD 1) Bran can see back in time at least as far back as the birth of the Winterfell Weirwood tree. 2) Contrary to what Bloodraven suggests - Bran can influence events, even if it’s just a squawking raven. Leaf even warns him not to call back the dead – that is a disturbing god-like power right there!

At the moment I’m a fan of the Weirwoods being “anchors-in-time” for Greenseers. What is interesting is how easy it might be for Bran to go back and influence singers dreams as they fall asleep beneath Weirwood trees etc.. (just like Jaime did before saving Brienne). These songs of the age of heroes etc… become lost in the mists of time as legends rather than events to come. As it was pointed out in the Timeline Essay in Heresy 50 – things can get lost very quickly. That argument works just as well this way round :) - and how do we define 'inspiration' anyway - I think that might be important

It may be some events that are sung about did occur, but some have yet to occur – particularly the stories surrounding the Long Night and the Age of Heroes. Brandon the Builder for example – real or just current Bran Stark influencing events in the past? “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell” – is still confusing readers, but in this situation, it would be obvious and necessary to prevent a time-paradox of Bran not coming into existence. The most compelling evidence of all for this are the words of House Stark! Winter is coming!!

Where we go with this from here I have no idea – but I am wondering if Brans influence is somehow linked with the names GRRM uses for his chapters. From TMK: “the north is a world of its own…they will know you only by your sword… and judge you by your deeds”. Sounds like the northern simplicity which we have seen when naming things / people. So are all the chapters that are labelled as “The Iron Suitor”, “Dragon-tamer” etc… all chapters which Bran is directly influencing or watching? Note how Victarion gets his name back and we have a weird POV switch from inside to outside cabin during that chapter. Is that because Moquorro has stolen Victarion for ‘Fire’ from Brans ‘Ice’ and so he can no longer influence it? Given that Torrhen became known as "the King who Knelt" - again that sounds like one of GRRMs weird POV names. So my guess is Bran was influencing Torrhen - "kneel or our house will end and we won't be around when we are needed" - that sorta thing....

[Stark@heart]

I think an interesting question is whether or not Monster is #99 or is he #100 and not counted yet because he's not been given to the Cold Gods yet?

I'm thinking he's to be the 100th offering. If a babe dies before it can be claimed by the Cold Gods then it was never an offering or "prayer" if you will.

So 99 down & 1 to go seems like an important number but nothing in the books has been mentioned yet, other than Craster bearing a heavy curse.

Craster's "sons" may not be anything more than blood offerings. A dark & twisted type of King's blood to fuel the (blue / ice) magic used by the Cold Gods.

Craster "prays" to the Cold Gods and they leave him be. They've also left everyone else be until recently so I can see the Wildlings leaving Craster to his own ways because there was a benefit in it for them as it kept the Cold Gods away but if Craster sons are being used to create more Others, then it's pretty stupid that no one killed him long ago to eliminate the source of the Others.

[Lannister Hamster]

I haven't seen the episode yet because it's not shown in our market yet and I'm against downloading.

Anyway, I always thought there were 1000 white walkers because there were 1000 red priests - symmetry.

[Profion]

I think Craster say in this episode: "I had my 99th" meaning that Monster was the 99th.

Giving the fact that 9 is a sacred number in Norse Mythology (9 realms and etc.), would make more sense than him being the 100th.

[brut]

Truly, hard to buy that Craster had so much .... stamina as to produce 99 male inbreeds (and who know how many females). I'd believe the number, if disclaimed for his predecessors sacrificing to the Old Gods. Other than that, Craster is lying to impress / scare.

[Little Wing]

Our friend Craster has become a meme. Awaiting the next FB rundown of the seriously awesome episode 4 *.*

[nedhed]

One thing I find very interesting about the heretical discussions is the way the study of the similarities between world of ASOIAF mythology and real world mythology highlights the ways that what initially appears to be fantasy "magic" in ASOIAF is a lot like the religions of other cultures, and on that basis, we are able to make some educated guesses about where this might be going.

But, this effectively forces us to view the characters with magic powers as priests, or demi-gods, which is difficult to reconcile with the tenant that the conflict won't be resolved by a god.

Have you guys (or anyone else) hashed out a distinction between the magic in ASOIAF and the various religions and gods in ASOIAF, and their relationship to one another? It almost seems to me like it would be something like this: humans who are observant of the gods, yet unable to weild supernatural powers, are practicing religion, and may be helped/harmed by the gods. Those who are able to actually able to weild supernatural powers are somehow "stealing" power from the gods (like by making blood sacrafices), and are thus practicing magic.

But, that seems like a distinction without a difference, and it seems like the practicioners of magic (i.e., priests) are going to be instrumental in directing the energies of the gods as the story plays out. So what's the point in rejecting the idea that a godlike force will play a pivitol role? I can see why one would reject the idea that an omnipotent, omniscient, god is pulling the strings because that's just too easy, but otherwise it seems pretty hard to justify our heretical theories with reference to religious texts if we're going to reject the possibility that god-like figures will be critical to the story's resolution.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Sign I'm spending too much time on the Heretic threads:

Today I got excited because a crow was sitting on my bicycle seat...

Lucky for me it wasn't three eyed!

[bbstark]

Freyja/Frigg was certainly associated with virility. A female goddess of course but cut the name down to Frey and GRRM has his little joke. I'm not so sure about the aurora though, I'm more into the Celtic side, but I'm sure somebody will be able to help.

Well actually I found this guy called Freyr, or Frey (anglicized) which is why I was asking...anyways, thanks for the answer :)

[Tyryan Lannister]

How does Bran manipulate the past?

He can see through the trees, and the trees can see the past. That I get.

Seeing is a lot different than influencing though.

There's the heretical theory that that is the extent of the abilities for someone like Bloodraven, but that Bran is innately that much more powerful; as such, once he finally comes into his own as a greenseer, he will be able to use his superpowerful abilities to not just view but also manipulate. And there is evidence that he has already done so through the fact that he can cause the trees (even in the past) to rustle in the wind in a "voice"--The Ned hear's Bran when Bran sees him asking the Old Gods for assistance with the whole trueborn/bastard born son thing, and Theon on multiple occasions hears Bran's voice calling his name when he is at the Heart Tree.

[Joken79]

There's the heretical theory that that is the extent of the abilities for someone like Bloodraven, but that Bran is innately that much more powerful; as such, once he finally comes into his own as a greenseer, he will be able to use his superpowerful abilities to not just view but also manipulate. And there is evidence that he has already done so through the fact that he can cause the trees (even in the past) to rustle in the wind in a "voice"--The Ned hear's Bran when Bran sees him asking the Old Gods for assistance with the whole trueborn/bastard born son thing, and Theon on multiple occasions hears Bran's voice calling his name when he is at the Heart Tree.

I don't know if somebody alrady mentioned the possible relation from Bran (greenseer) to the Norns.

The three important ones live at the roots of Yggdrasill and their names are related to time.

Quote from wikipedia:

Both Urðr and Verðandi are derived from the Old Norse verb verða, "to be". While Urðr derives from the past tense ("that which became or happened"), Verðandi derives from the present tense of verða ("that which is happening"). Skuld is derived from the Old Norse verb skulla, "need/ought to be/shall be";its meaning is "that which should become, or that needs to occur".

Perhaps the three-eyed-crow is a reference to these Norns.

The three eyes could stand for the possibility to see in the past (weir trees), the presence and the future (greendreams).

[Tyryan Lannister]

OT, but very funny

http://www.grantland...game-of-thrones