[Book Spoilers] This is Bryan Cogman's episode.

[protar]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that D&D, who live and breathe Game of Thrones and aSoIaF, did not make a change without a good reason. The reason they don't tell the fans is because, as has been mentioned, they don't owe an explanation. In addition to that, most fans have no idea what they're talking about. They can say what they think makes good television and what would and would not work in the that medium when compared to the books, but the fact of the matter is that D&D are professionals, and very successful ones at that. The reasons they have for making any changes from the source material have far more knowledge behind them that any book reader will likely have.

Again, this "they don't owe us anything2 atittude doesn't make any sense. Perhaps they don't have to but it doesn't say good things about them when they don't. And to be honest they do owe us a lot. You think if ASOIAF didn't already have a large fanbase that the show would have been made? And certainly they owe Martin, so yes they should respect his source material.

Also, I hate to break it to you but yeah they just change things for fun. They pretty much admitted that they thought Volantis was cool and that's why Jeyne became Talisa. They failed to explain however why what was in the books wasn't adequate. The show is full of D+D's little creative flairs. And of course even when they do have reasons, I am perfectly entitled to disagree with them and say that it makes poorer television than staying faithful to the books would.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Again, this "they don't owe us anything2 atittude doesn't make any sense. Perhaps they don't have to but it doesn't say good things about them when they don't. And to be honest they do owe us a lot. You think if ASOIAF didn't already have a large fanbase that the show would have been made? And certainly they owe Martin, so yes they should respect his source material.

To be honest, the size of the fanbase was not the reason the show was made. The HBO execs probably just liked the pilot, and assumed that the show would be very profitable. Rather than targeting the already existing fanbase, which although sizable, was nowhere near the size it is today, I'm pretty sure their primary target was the mainstream TV watching audience, and not avid readers.

And regardless of whether it's an adaptation or not, Benioff and Weiss don't really owe us anything. We weren't the reason the show got made. It's completely within their right to do whatever they want with the material, just like it's completely within our right to criticize what they do.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

To be honest, the size of the fanbase was not the reason the show was made. The HBO execs probably just liked the pilot, and assumed that the show would be very profitable. Rather than targeting the already existing fanbase, which although sizable, was nowhere near the size it is today, I'm pretty sure their primary target was the mainstream TV watching audience, and not avid readers.

And regardless of whether it's an adaptation or not, Benioff and Weiss don't really owe us anything. We weren't the reason the show got made. It's completely within their right to do whatever they want with the material, just like it's completely within our right to criticize what they do.

A greater level of agreement would not be possible from me.

Even though they change things, I still get such a giant buzz from seeing something that I've read and loved come to life onscreen.

But l still love to discuss and whinge about things they've changed or omitted, and while I might not agree, this show is their passion and they aren't just trying to cater to book readers, but a massive mainstream audience as well (which is definitely the reason for all the sex scenes).

Above all, I'm just fucking stoked that they did this. The fact that they undertook this giant project, in my opinion, cancels out anything that they allegedly owe us.

[protar]

To be honest, the size of the fanbase was not the reason the show was made. The HBO execs probably just liked the pilot, and assumed that the show would be very profitable. Rather than targeting the already existing fanbase, which although sizable, was nowhere near the size it is today, I'm pretty sure their primary target was the mainstream TV watching audience, and not avid readers.

And regardless of whether it's an adaptation or not, Benioff and Weiss don't really owe us anything. We weren't the reason the show got made. It's completely within their right to do whatever they want with the material, just like it's completely within our right to criticize what they do.

You're right. And it's not like there is a certain someone who they owe all their success to and whose books they should probably respect. right? In any case I think that not making unnecessary changes is perfectly reasonable, because well... they're unnecessary. Anyone claiming for example that Jeyne had to be turned into a Volantene nurse is quite frankly being delusional. That's such a specific and out-there change that there's really no logical reason for it besides D+D's exercising their own "creativity". Technically it's well within their rights, but that doesn't mean they should be doing it.

[Gendels Children]

:drunk: WHAT IS DEAD MAY NEVER DIE WAS GREAT, I HAVE VEEEERRY HIGH HOPES FOR THIS EPISODE, as i would have reguardless of who where directing it, but learning its him makes me very happy. he likes to stay true to the books, which is all i could ask for from him :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Pinkie Baelish]

You're right. And it's not like there is a certain someone who they owe all their success to and whose books they should probably respect. right? In any case I think that not making unnecessary changes is perfectly reasonable, because well... they're unnecessary. Anyone claiming for example that Jeyne had to be turned into a Volantene nurse is quite frankly being delusional. That's such a specific and out-there change that there's really no logical reason for it besides D+D's exercising their own "creativity". Technically it's well within their rights, but that doesn't mean they should be doing it.

This just reiterates my point. It's within their right to do so, and it's within our right to criticize such changes. But ultimately, it's their machine, and I don't think they really owe it to us to remain 100% faithful to the books. The changes in the show may cheapen the quality of the show, and the quality of it's adaptation, but it does not cheapen the quality of the books in any way. And like you said, the only person they owe anything to is George, and he has personally said that he loves the show, and that's good enough for me.

[The Flaying Man]

I'm positive that D and D came up with that scene. They've gone on record to state that Stannis is a "villain", and Weiss even said that Stannis would make a terrible king, which worries me a great deal on the direction they'll look to take Stannis in the future. I guess that's a drawback of adapting a series with such polarizing characters-everyone sees them differently, and if the showrunners see him in a negative light, then you can guarantee that he'll be portrayed as a darker, more villainous figure.

Oh no. When/where did they state all of this? I had hoped Stannis' "evil" phase would pass...

[Pinkie Baelish]

Oh no. When/where did they state all of this? I had hoped Stannis' "evil" phase would pass...

Weiss says Stannis would make a terrible king

. I can't recall which interview Benioff called Stannis a villain in, but I've definitely heard one of them say it.

[The Flaying Man]

Weiss says Stannis would make a terrible king

. I can't recall which interview Benioff called Stannis a villain in, but I've definitely heard one of them say it.

Thanks, I saw this before but somehow forgot about it! The top-rated comment says it all, really. Don't worry, I believe you. Hopefully this doesn't mean he'll become an antagonist for Jon in the future? It's slightly early for that kind of speculation though, we'll see how this season plays out first.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

A little pressed for time so I'll keep it quick. All that says to me is that D+D simply don't care about the source material or about the book readers. And they should, especially when they go on about how passionate they are about the books. They're not even obliged to respect or connect to us, but the least they could do is respect Martin, who has pretty much singlehandedly given them all this success.

And if they don't care about what purists think, then why hide behind questions and not answer? There's no reason aside from a lack of respect.

There's no need to be ao dramatic about the whole thing. They don't care about the source material or book readers? They disrespect you? This is a shining example of why you don't entertain questions from a rabid and unreasonable fan base...because they're so rabid and unreasonable that anything you say is going to get blown out of proportion.

[Dragonstoned]

As for Stannis, while GRRM seems to make a lot of noise in interviews about how he doesn't like the idea of "villains"--although he accidentally referred to Sandor, Jaime and Theon as such in an interview, oops--I got the impression he had a fairly dim view of Stannis as well. I think he said something on his Livejournal account implying he had a low opinion of Tiberius from I, Claudius, and then went on to state that there was a lot of Tiberius in his Stannis. Could be wrong, though.

Didn't he also say that Stannis is the most heroic character in the series? Open to interpretation: straight 'Stannis is a hero' or 'the series contains so few examples of heroism that even Stannis is probably the hero'

I could be wrong here and can't find a quote, but I'm positive GRRM thinks of him more neutrally than D&D do.

[Dragonstoned]

There's no need to be ao dramatic about the whole thing. They don't care about the source material or book readers? They disrespect you? This is a shining example of why you don't entertain questions from a rabid and unreasonable fan base...because they're so rabid and unreasonable that anything you say is going to get blown out of proportion.

Hardly rabid, Protar and I and anyone else I've seen asking questions make their points in a measured way. We're not foaming at the mouth because of perceived disrespect from D&D, we just would like some answers and accountability. They don't have to give it to us, obviously, but it's not unreasonable to hope for some?

[The Flaying Man]

I can only hope that D&D are offering opinions of Stannis that directly reflect what they believe the audience should think at that particular moment in time. In season 2, Stannis is a relatively new character, and was introduced as having let a foreign religion grasp a firm foothold in Westeros, which is automatically perceived as "wrong".

Perhaps they are simply playing to the expectations of the non book-reading audience with their comments? I hope this is the case, as otherwise they have grossly misunderstood Stannis' character and what he stands for.

[Sun]

I can't say I'm a big fan of the writing done on this show. The writers are competent - except for Vanessa Taylor who is atrocious - with Bryan Cogman being the most competent.

[Dragonstoned]

@Flaying Man, rather than playing to people's perceptions they're actually changing them though. Whether you think Stannis ordered Renly's death or not, in the books there was the ambiguity. Unsullied are well within their rights to think Stannis is a villain because in the show he flat out kills his brother.

My hope is that they are making him so bad to start with in order to emphasise the turn-around in his character once we get to 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!'. Otherwise yeah they have grossly misunderstood him, and either way should make more of an effort to render his grey-ness instead of imposing their own interpretations.

[The Flaying Man]

@Flaying Man, rather than playing to people's perceptions they're actually changing them though. Whether you think Stannis ordered Renly's death or not, in the books there was the ambiguity. Unsullied are well within their rights to think Stannis is a villain because in the show he flat out kills his brother.

My hope is that they are making him so bad to start with in order to emphasis the turn-around in his character once we get to 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!'. Otherwise yeah they have grossly misunderstood him, and either way should make more of an effort to render his grey-ness instead of imposing their own interpretations.

Good point. I just saw someone saying in another thread that D&D are letting their own opinions on characters contaminate George's characterization of the characters, such as making Jon Snow an "idiot", and playing right into the cliched "girl power" idea with Daenerys...not to mention the whitewashing of Tyrion.

Your second point is one I also hope proves true. If they play their cards right (a big hope), Stannis arriving at the Wall should be an amazing moment.

[TomBadgerlock]

My hope is that they are making him so bad to start with in order to emphasis the turn-around in his character once we get to 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!'. Otherwise yeah they have grossly misunderstood him, and either way should make more of an effort to render his grey-ness instead of imposing their own interpretations.

This is my hope. I don't see how they could maintain this idea of Stannis being a villain after he saves the Wall.

[The Flaying Man]

This is my hope. I don't see how they could maintain this idea of Stannis being a villain after he saves the Wall.

Completely OT, but I just changed my avatar to avoid confusion with yours :cheers:

[protar]

There's no need to be ao dramatic about the whole thing. They don't care about the source material or book readers? They disrespect you? This is a shining example of why you don't entertain questions from a rabid and unreasonable fan base...because they're so rabid and unreasonable that anything you say is going to get blown out of proportion.

Dragonstoned pretty much says what I think. It's hardly a herculean effort for them to issue a couple of statements about the whys and wherefores of a few of the major changes. They do a behind the episode video every week, it is not unreasonable to ask.

But yeah, I do doubt their respect for the source material when they do things like replace one of Martin's characters with a character archetype he has specifically spoken out against. They're enthusiastic I'll give 'em that, but not always in a constructive and focused way imo.

[mykelsss]

Anyone claiming for example that Jeyne had to be turned into a Volantene nurse is quite frankly being delusional. That's such a specific and out-there change that there's really no logical reason for it besides D+D's exercising their own "creativity". Technically it's well within their rights, but that doesn't mean they should be doing it.

How about this:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

?