R+L=J v.48

[Fetch me a block]

You're welcome. Now, I need you to do something for me. "Promise me," Fetch, that you won't ask any more R + L questions until you read aGoT.

A man will try

[Fetch me a block]

I posted this in the Foreshadowing #4 thread a few days ago.

From aSoS:

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna, did not win the tourney and marry a princess, but the prince, Rhaegar, did win the tourney and married the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

This is assuming the KLT is Lyanna, I always assumed it was Howland

[Ser Uncle P]

if Rheagar never married her, then the TOJ flashback shows us the LC and top fighter of the Kingsguard personally guarding the Heir Apparent's "bit on the side". Not bloody likely!

[King of Winters]

A man will try

A man must.

[Fetch me a block]

A man must.

A man will.

[Fetch me a block]

While we are on topic, has anyone noticed how much Howland's wife, Jyana, sounds so much like Lyanna? Striked me as interesting. (After this post, my pledge to ask no RLJ questions until the appointed time begins)

[King of Winters]

This is assuming the KLT is Lyanna, I always assumed it was Howland

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago that discussed this, again, that Lyanna was the KOTLT. It could also explain why Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna.

[Twinslayer]

if Rheagar never married her, then the TOJ flashback shows us the LC and top fighter of the Kingsguard personally guarding the Heir Apparent's "bit on the side". Not bloody likely!

Why is it unlikely? In ADWD we get this from Barristan:

Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and protect ... their lovers, mistresses and bastards.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey.

At the exact same time Dany is off in the Dothraki Sea thinking:

Ser Barristan might come seeking her; he was the first of her Queensguard, sworn to defend her life with his own.

But Barristan doesn't go looking for Dany.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

So I clarified the timeline theory with quotes from text late in v47 (may he RIP ;)) and also a song for you as promised. Later on I posted another quote from Robert in AGoT ch.4 which proved he (Robert) had never been to WF in winter (damn chaper4! Always reread chapter 4 when working an RLJ theory) Since Mtn Lion pointed out that winter probably set in soon after the Tourney I admit that rules out Robert being there when his suit was brought. Also, the bit from the app that says Ned brought Robert's suit to Winterfell.

I do think it very likely that Ned was at WF after the Tourney. The Mya Stone thing IMO just leaves too small of a window for him to have made the trip pre-Tourney. From the text, we know he came to the Tourney from the Eyrie, so that would have been a round trip to WF, then a trip back down to the Riverlands. It doesn't make sense. If he was going to spend time with his siblings I think it had to be after the Tourney. Also, the Tourney would have allowed Robert to meet Lyanna (possibly for the first time) and make a final decision to "send his suit" to Lord Rickard via Ned.

As for the kidnapping, IIRC the only people who ever use that word are Robert and Bran (who is a seven year old boy and not likely to understand the finer points of the situation) and Viserys with his "sword point" comment. (If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be roundly corrected, and I'm okay with that.)

Catelyn was engaged to Brandon when she was 12 and he 15. I don't think there was a standard, unless it's as Ygrain suggests and loosely tied to when a girl flowers. I think Lord Rickard's "Southron ambitions" may have had him shopping around a bit. Lyanna was after all only 13 or 14 at the Tourney.

That said, the most important part of my post you quoted is "My opinion on the events leading up to the disappearance is always evolving" I'm perfectly happy to fine tune my ideas about things when details from text come to my attention. That's how this all started, with the bit about Robert's bastard in the Vale. Theories are fine, and I enjoy constructing them as much as the next person, but if they fall apart based on textual evidence, so be it :dunno:

[Ygrain]

But Barristan doesn't go looking for Dany.

Because he could spend the rest of his life traversing the Dothraki sea looking for her. On the other hand, Dayne, Whent and Hightower know bloody well where Viserys is.

[LadyMary]

This premise always puzzled me. I can understand that Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had sex and a kid together. But, correct me if I am wrong, is there any evidence that they may have married? Because it would make sense, but I don't remember seeing any evidence that this was the case. People have used this premise to argue that Jon is legally a Targaryen as opposed to a Stark bastard, but this seems a bit too convenient IMO.

In that book you haven't read.

Acutally, while I firmly believe R+L=J based on evidence in the book texts, there no specific evidence in the texts of AGOT or any of the other books, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. There is a lot of speculation based on the fact that the KGs were still present at the TOJ after the sack instead of off to Dragonstone to be with Viserys that leads to a conclusion that Jon must be the rightful heir to the throne.

That is a reasonable conclusion, based on the images and words that Ned recalls in his fever dream. However, we don't exactly how accurate those dreams are and GRRM has actually said they weren't meant to be strictly literal. That leads me to question whether the only explanation is that the KG at the TOJ were protecting Jon and Lyanna because he was their new King, or for another reason. It's also possible that Aerys was aware that Rhaegar planned to abduct Lyanna but not the real reason for it, and consented to the KG accompanying Rhaegar and guarding the hostage (if Aerys was paranoid about Rickard Stark's Southern ambitions). If that's the case, the KG would have more than one reason to protect Lyanna and her baby after the sack.

Now, having said that, I do like the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have exchanged vows before a Heart tree on the Isle of Faces and are "married" after a fashion, although perhaps not "legally" according to the Faith of the Seven, under which he married Elia. Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna's "marriage" would not be considered legal by the Faith (since the Targaryens had long since abandoned polygamy), it might not have mattered to Ser Dayne and Ser Whent who allegedly were with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna, because they were not just his KG but also his close friends and probably more loyal to him than to King Aerys... (side theory: They were complicit with Rhaegar in planning a coup d'etat against Aerys.)

The Isle of Faces is near Harrenhal which is where the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna allegedly began, and near the Kings Road between Winterfell and Kings Landing. We don't know the how or where of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, but it seems likely that they had to travel through the Neck and near the God's Eye at some point which makes proximity to the Weirwood forest very likely. So, it is possible some vows were exchanged and the KG at the TOJ accepted that as a valid marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna for purposes of protecting Jon after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon* were dead. (*believed dead, in Aegon's case).

Again, there is no evidence of a polygamous marriage in the texts but some plausible theories based on history of Targaryen marriage customs, and friendship between the Heir to the throne and his loyal KG.

[Ghost's Shadow]

This is assuming the KLT is Lyanna, I always assumed it was Howland

Has Howland been described as an awesome horseback rider, though? Do they even have horses? I know he rode alongside Ned to the ToJ, but was he used to riding before that?

Lyanna was described as being half a horse, and jousting is mostly horse skills.

[finger]

I go on with the crackpot theory. (Lyanna called for Rhaegar to save her from Robert)

Does it matter?

It might, regarding Jon's legitimacy.

Remember the plots about Myrcella? Both Oberyn and Tyrion agreed that Myrcella was her brother's legitimate heir, according to Dornish law. This is not said just because, but to make the issue very clear.

The rationale on Arianne's plan was that, being Myrcella at Dorne, it was Dornish succession laws that apply, so she was the legitimate heir to the IT, name it the new queen, it you prefer.

What to do with Jon? Let's see.

Rhaegar didn't rape or force Lyanna in any way. He put aside Elia and went and stole Lyanna, at her will, and overcoming any opposition he could have found.

This was a wildling "marriage", and Jon is as legitimate as a wildling can be according to wildling rules.

At the end of ADWD Jon's life was in the hands of the wildlings, who had chosen him as their leader.

I wonder if Jon or the wildlings care about who sits on the bloody IT, and if they'll heed when they find out who Jon's father is.

[Alia of the knife]

Let's go with the crackpot theory (Excuse me if it has been discussed before).

1. Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love at ToH. Somehow they managed to keep in touch after that.

2. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert , but she didn't love her. (Hey, she did love Rhaegar, I told)

3. Lyanna send a message to Rhaegar telling him where to find her and "steal" her.

This could be just another crazy idea, among many others that anyone can imagine. Let's look for clues. Or hints put in the text to lead us in the quest.

Stealing the girl is the way wildings get like married, or something. The girl is normally willing.

Hoster Tully's comment. It can mean many things, for instance, that he knew L was willingly with Rhaegar, and he find Brandon was a fool, not only for going to KL, but also for not noticing the true.

Cat triggered the five kings war by taking Tyrion. Did L the same by making herself be taken by Rhaegar?

The reason to bring about the theory. It explains why it seems to have been easy to Rhaegar to "abduct" Lyanna.

I like the notion of Lyanna enticing Rhaegar, rather than waiting pasively.

Come on with those objections, har

It's not so much an objection, but just an observation that has always puzzled me, and it's actually the lack of derogatory comments about Lyanna from the population in the South, and even amongst Rhaegars family.

I would think that if Lyanna displayed any inappropriate, or temptous behavior towards Rhaegar, most of Westeros would blame her.

And perhaps some of Rickards political enemies like the Boltens, or even Lady Dustin, would point to Rickards inability to lead the North if he couldn't control his daughter.

As it stands, they all seem to blame Elia and her frailty, plainess, etc.

And as much as Cersei should despise Lyanna, she just maintains that if she'd been the one to marry Rhaegar, he wouldn't have looked twice at the "wolf girl."

We also hear the same from Viserys about blaming Dany for not being born sooner, and then Dany counters that he should have been born a girl.

Everyone is grasping for a reason to explain Rhaegars actions.

While we have a lot of POV's on Rhaegars behavior towards Lyanna, we really get nothing about her behavior towards him other than the crying scene, and it was revealed in aDwD that everyone cried during Rhaegars songs.

So, if Lyanna did do anything to "entice" Rhaegar away from his familly, I would think she'd get the "Ann Boleyn" treatment, as well as more of the blame for the war.

I'm not ruling it out, for all we know she could have been just as bold as Brandon was, but, where Lyanna is concerned, I need more information.

[finger]

Acutally, while I firmly believe R+L=J based on evidence in the book texts, there no specific evidence in the texts of AGOT or any of the other books, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. There is a lot of speculation based on the fact that the KGs were still present at the TOJ after the sack instead of off to Dragonstone to be with Viserys that leads to a conclusion that Jon must be the rightful heir to the throne.

That is a reasonable conclusion, based on the images and words that Ned recalls in his fever dream. However, we don't exactly how accurate those dreams are and GRRM has actually said they weren't meant to be strictly literal. That leads me to question whether the only explanation is that the KG at the TOJ were protecting Jon and Lyanna because he was their new King, or for another reason. It's also possible that Aerys was aware that Rhaegar planned to abduct Lyanna but not the real reason for it, and consented to the KG accompanying Rhaegar and guarding the hostage (if Aerys was paranoid about Rickard Stark's Southern ambitions). If that's the case, the KG would have more than one reason to protect Lyanna and her baby after the sack.

Now, having said that, I do like the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have exchanged vows before a Heart tree on the Isle of Faces and are "married" after a fashion, although perhaps not "legally" according to the Faith of the Seven, under which he married Elia. Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna's "marriage" would not be considered legal by the Faith (since the Targaryens had long since abandoned polygamy), it might not have mattered to Ser Dayne and Ser Whent who allegedly were with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna, because they were not just his KG but also his close friends and probably more loyal to him than to King Aerys... (side theory: They were complicit with Rhaegar in planning a coup d'etat against Aerys.)

The Isle of Faces is near Harrenhal which is where the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna allegedly began, and near the Kings Road between Winterfell and Kings Landing. We don't know the how or where of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, but it seems likely that they had to travel through the Neck and near the God's Eye at some point which makes proximity to the Weirwood forest very likely. So, it is possible some vows were exchanged and the KG at the TOJ accepted that as a valid marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna for purposes of protecting Jon after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon* were dead. (*believed dead, in Aegon's case).

Again, there is no evidence of a polygamous marriage in the texts but some plausible theories based on history of Targaryen marriage customs, and friendship between the Heir to the throne and his loyal KG.

I'm affraid you won't even consider the wildling pov, but if they die, they'll come at you as wights, har

[Alia of the knife]

Right stay on topic. However I would like to take time have a brief moment of silence for Sanka. Sanka the flavorless bastard son coffee, you never expect much, you never get much. We didn't expect much from Sanka he started out slow and dull, with not much to say. But he was fighter down, little bastard had no quit in him, every day you expected him to stop, you thought this would be the last post. But he just kept going, like the little engine that could. Here is to you Sanka, you were one hell of a cup of Joe and their will never be a version 47 like you again. Go into the light now little friend, go into the light.

SANKA!!!!!!!!

Alright now I have to find Gwyns post and respond.

Oh and the new version needs a name?

She's spicey, she's sweet, she's a tangy treat. She is a one calorie pocket full of dynamite, you know her you love her, ladys and gentleman, boys and girls, kids of all ages, I give you... Tic Tac...!!!!!!!! The one calorie wonder from down under.

And this is for you.

http://www.bing.com/...nka commercials

Never go to bed again. :P

[LadyMary]

I'm affraid you won't even consider the wildling pov, but if they die, they'll come at you as wights, har

Ah but the Wildling POV and the theory that Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna and they exchanged vows before a Heart Tree on the Isle of Faces are not mutually exclusive, are they? :)

[finger]

It's not so much an objection, but just an observation that has always puzzled me, and it's actually the lack of derogatory comments about Lyanna from the population in the South, and even amongst Rhaegars family.

I would think that if Lyanna displayed any inappropriate, or temptous behavior towards Rhaegar, most of Westeros would blame her.

And perhaps some of Rickards political enemies like the Boltens, or even Lady Dustin, would point to Rickards inability to lead the North if he couldn't control his daughter.

As it stands, they all seem to blame Elia and her frailty, plainess, etc.

And as much as Cersei should despise Lyanna, she just maintains that if she'd been the one to marry Rhaegar, he wouldn't have looked twice at the "wolf girl."

We also hear the same from Viserys about blaming Dany for not being born sooner, and then Dany counters that he should have been born a girl.

Everyone is grasping for a reason to explain Rhaegars actions.

While we have a lot of POV's on Rhaegars behavior towards Lyanna, we really get nothing about her behavior towards him other than the crying scene, and it was revealed in aDwD that everyone cried during Rhaegars songs.

So, if Lyanna did do anything to "entice" Rhaegar away from his familly, I would think she'd get the "Ann Boleyn" treatment, as well as more of the blame for the war.

I'm not ruling it out, for all we know she could have been just as bold as Brandon was, but, where Lyanna is concerned, I need more information and less extrapolation.

Me too. Blame it on Martin. :lol:

Arya is the best we have to suppose Lyanna's behaviour. Have you ever seen Arya obbey meekly when she was a prissoner? She rather leads, takes her options.

I was just re-reading the passage where the crown prince attacks her escort, and what was her reaction. (I'm taking the use of pronouns from Martin, har)

It was meant to be Arya and Joffrey. What can you say of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I know, it's extrapolation together with a bit of speculation, and I'd do better with some actual quote, but Martin has decided to veil Lyanna in mistery, it's not my fault, har.

[Twinslayer]

Because he could spend the rest of his life traversing the Dothraki sea looking for her. On the other hand, Dayne, Whent and Hightower know bloody well where Viserys is.

GRRM covered that. The very next sentence after the one I quoted is:

And her blood riders were no strangers to the Dothraki sea, and their lives were bound to her own.

Barristan could have set out looking for her, with the blood riders. He didn't because he had more important things to do than go to her in person.

Lest we stray off-topic, however, the "what was Barristan up to" question probably needs its own thread.

[finger]

Ah but the Wildling POV and the theory that Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna and they exchanged vows before a Heart Tree on the Isle of Faces are not mutually exclusive, are they? :)

Just a minute. Have you considered what it would imply?

Old gods mean nothing to Rhaegar, they are Lyanna's gods.

Should they have exchanged vows before a heart tree, that'd give Lyanna the lead. Rhaegar would be just following.

So, they not only are not mutually exclusive. Having done so would reinforce the idea that it was Lyanna planning, IMHO.

Mmmm. I must think about it.