Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Regardess of what happened when they were children, the adults that chose to kill King Robert's true-born fetus and only give birth to Jaime's were adults and completely accountable for their actions. Actions that caused a horrible ripple effect that hurt all of the seven kingdoms. I'm just surprised that people actually try to justify their actions. The incest was completely wrong and absolutely no good came from it at all.

I like to view things from different angles. Makes for a more interesting discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to be fair, they were small children at the time. I'm not sure they were aware it was wrong. You could argue that Joanna's separating them and telling them to never do it again should have been enough but given their age at the time I wouldn't blame either party if it wasn't. Looking at history the Targaryens wed their siblings for centuries, and unless she ever discussed it with them again I'm fairly certain that would convince them that it was alright despite what she said that one time. A child whose mother tells him/her once that what he/she is doing is wrong once doesn't usually have the desired effect. Things usually have to be explained several times to children.

Although, once they became older, yes, they should probably have realized it was wrong if that is the common opinion in Westeros.

The incest itself is not necessarily the problem in my eyes. It is the fact that they continued to do it and Cersei only bore children that were products of it. At a base level, it doesn't even matter if its wrong of if they see it as wrong. More critical is that they are doing it while married to the king. Continuing to do it risks their lives, their family's lives, the health of the realm and the lives of the children that Cersei is said to love so much. JMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, then blame Tywin for getting Joanna preggers with Tyrion in the first place...

Yes, we can butterfly effect our way as far back as we want, right? lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The incest was a choice. A choice that they continued into their adult lives. You're going to honestly tell me that something that happened due to pure happenstance is equal to two people making a conscience choice, knowing all the while it was wrong?

Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be held accountable for their actions here? Because it seems like that's what you're trying to do. Blame anyone and everyone except for the two responsible.

They grew up thinking there was nothing wrong with it. If you read Cersei's memory when they where kids and their mother saw them, she didn't understand why they were being kept separated and why it was wrong. Later when they where old enough they learnt it was wrong, but it was too late because they already had feelings for each other, they already loved each other, and Cersei having a terrible husband didn't help.

Of course they've done terrible things. But they are not the cause of every simgle thing that happens, and that's why I disagree with you.

Bran's fall can also be blamed in other people, not only in Jaime and Cersei. If Bran would've obey his mother, nothing would have happened. If Ned would've taking Bran hunting with the rest... If Bran would learn to not to listen to other people's conversations..., I Jon wouldn't have been so self-centered, emo, and would have played with Bran.... It's not ONLY Cersei and Jaime's fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think it would be better to suggest that the incest was a catalyst rather than a cause. Ultimately the cause of the war was the original rebellion ending in Robert becoming king and being piss poor at the job. He was never able to truly unite the 7 Kingdoms under him. The Lannisters continued to plot to take the Iron Throne. IMO, Tywin was aware of the poisoning of Robert before it happened and approved of it. Also the Tyrells clearly have their own desires to gain the throne. Not to mention the Greyjoys and the Northmen barely caring about the king.

Perhaps without the incest, Stannis would have been made king. But he would have been no better as king than Robert or, more precisely, no better at uniting the kingdom.

Ultimately it was the political divide that caused the war. The incest just defined the path it would go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, then blame Tywin for getting Joanna preggers with Tyrion in the first place...

Now you get my point.

Am I the only one who finds the incest argument to be hilarious?

No, I'm laughing so hard reading and participating in this discusion.

I like to view things from different angles. Makes for a more interesting discussion.

Me, too :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The incest itself is not necessarily the problem in my eyes. It is the fact that they continued to do it and Cersei only bore children that were products of it. At a base level, it doesn't even matter if its wrong of if they see it as wrong. More critical is that they are doing it while married to the king. Continuing to do it risks their lives, their family's lives, the health of the realm and the lives of the children that Cersei is said to love so much. JMO

I suppose that is true. It was quite idiotic to continue when she had married Robert, but on the other hand, if I look at it through their eyes (and especially Cerseis) I think they felt it was justified because of the way Robert treated her. She tells him (Robert) at some point that she had loved him and wanted to be with him, but that she started despising him instead after he kept calling her Lyanna and continued to show that he didn't care for her the same way. I don't think his whoring around helped the cause. Perhaps it would have been different had he treated her better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the words of Jaime Lannister, we can't choose who we love.

And why do you say that Cersei would have given Robert an heir if there was no incest? Robert would have still mistreated her and called her Lyanna. She wouldn't have loved him or wanted his children. And she shouldn't be obliged to have his children if she doesn't want to, even if she is the queen, especially since it was probably her father, not her, who decided that she should be queen.

Also, someone up thread said that Jaime is still fighting for the wrong side. Erm, excuse me, he is fighting for his family. There is nor right and wrong side in Westeros. The right side does not equal the Starks.

Wow........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think it would be better to suggest that the incest was a catalyst rather than a cause. Ultimately the cause of the war was the original rebellion ending in Robert becoming king and being piss poor at the job. He was never able to truly unite the 7 Kingdoms under him. The Lannisters continued to plot to take the Iron Throne. IMO, Tywin was aware of the poisoning of Robert before it happened and approved of it. Also the Tyrells clearly have their own desires to gain the throne. Not to mention the Greyjoys and the Northmen barely caring about the king.

Perhaps without the incest, Stannis would have been made king. But he would have been no better as king than Robert or, more precisely, no better at uniting the kingdom.

Ultimately it was the political divide that caused the war. The incest just defined the path it would go.

Don't forget the Martells who haven't forgotten. The incest may have defined the path, but it's not the ONE single cause of all the events. And yes, I agree with you.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree you can't choose who you love, you can choose how to act on it. It's what separates us from animals. It was his choice to sleep with his sister, and to do all the horrible things he did, it was also his choice to slay the king and not defend his actions.

So here's my question, Can everything Jaime did that was wrong be tied back to that moment that Ned Stark branded him an Oathbreaker and a traitor? Is it all because of that moment that Jaime chose to live up to the expectations of being the Oathbreaker. Was Cersi a virgin when she wedded Robert?

I do have to say that if you are a queen it is your obligation to have heirs and bastards are not true heirs. She wasn't choosing to have incestual heirs because Robert was oh so mean to her. She was being plotting and manipultive from the get go, and those were her choices.

Edited by NickyM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose that is true. It was quite idiotic to continue when she had married Robert, but on the other hand, if I look at it through their eyes (and especially Cerseis) I think they felt it was justified because of the way Robert treated her. She tells him (Robert) at some point that she had loved him and wanted to be with him, but that she started despising him instead after he kept calling her Lyanna and continued to show that he didn't care for her the same way. I don't think his whoring around helped the cause. Perhaps it would have been different had he treated her better.

Besides, when Robert had sex with Cersei he was so fucking drunk, and he hurt her.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One question, what did Jaime say to Brienne in the bath to infuriate her so much she stood up in front of him? I rewound the dvr numerous times but couldn't make it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose that is true. It was quite idiotic to continue when she had married Robert, but on the other hand, if I look at it through their eyes (and especially Cerseis) I think they felt it was justified because of the way Robert treated her. She tells him (Robert) at some point that she had loved him and wanted to be with him, but that she started despising him instead after he kept calling her Lyanna and continued to show that he didn't care for her the same way. I don't think his whoring around helped the cause. Perhaps it would have been different had he treated her better.

Also, looking at Cersei as a person, I don't think she ever thought that she was less important than Robert, or that she in any way should bow to him just because he was the king. He certainly was the king, but she was his queen - and if it was alright for him to whore around I'm fairly certain she thought she was entitled to a lover as well. It must have been natural for her to continue sleeping with Jaime if she were to have a lover after being married to Robert.

Edited by Peptalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Tywin wants Cersei remarried and out of the capital more than he cares who she marries. But can you imagine Cersei in Dorne? How long would it take for her to singlehandedly start a new civil war? :P Loras might actually be a decent match for Cersei – they could probably come to some sort of discrete arrangement regarding their lovers, and it would get her out from under Tywin’s thumb.

It looks like they’re skipping Arya and Gendry at the bar and Arya and Gendry at the Acorn hall, which makes sense – those scenes aren’t necessary and it would be easy to make Gendry creepy with that sort of thing. But I thought they were cute scenes and was looking forward to a little adorable awkwardness between the two of them.

I do hope we get Loras’ candle line in there somewhere.

I don’t like the Talisa-as-a-spy theory. What point would it be? Just to show that Robb was thoroughly outclassed by Tywin? To show that one of the very few happy couples on the continent was a lie? We already have Jon’s betrayal of Ygritte, can’t Robb’s tragedy at least feature devoted love between two people? It just seems like Robb’s story is dark enough already, and I don’t see what the story gains from spy-Talisa. (Jeyne’s family was devious, but the girl was honestly in love with Robb) Anyway, it hardly requires a spy married to the King to observe troop movements.

Littlefinger’s little smile after Cersei mentioned that she’d like him to be better at keeping an eye on the Tyrells than at finding Arya was more evidence to me, at least, that he did recognize her at Harrenhal.

I wonder if Varys will somehow engineer Jorah’s downfall? We keep having these hints of Varys’ global connections; and it would be interesting to start seeing him pulling strings in Dany’s plotline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose that is true. It was quite idiotic to continue when she had married Robert, but on the other hand, if I look at it through their eyes (and especially Cerseis) I think they felt it was justified because of the way Robert treated her. She tells him (Robert) at some point that she had loved him and wanted to be with him, but that she started despising him instead after he kept calling her Lyanna and continued to show that he didn't care for her the same way. I don't think his whoring around helped the cause. Perhaps it would have been different had he treated her better.

I'm totally with your here. I just don't know that it changes anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides, when Robert had sex with Cersei he was so fucking drunk, and he hurt her.

Right! I had forgotten that, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree you can't choose who you love, you can choose how to act on it. It's what separates us from animals. It was his choice to sleep with his sister, and to do all the horrible things he did, it was also his choice to slay the king and not defend his actions.

So here's my question, Can everything Jaime did that was wrong be tied back to that moment that Ned Stark branded him an Oathbreaker and a traitor? Is it all because of that moment that Jaime chose to live up to the expectations of being the Oathbreaker. Was Cersi a virgin when she wedded Robert?

I do have to say that if you are a queen it is you obligation to have heirs and bastards are not true heirs. She wasn't choosing to have incestual heirs because Robert was oh so mean to her. She was being plotting and manipultive from the get go, and those were here choices.

It's possible that Jaime, a guy who joined the Kingsguard which required celibacy, was trying to run away from Cersei but the scorn he faced after killing Aerys, drove him right back into her arms.

Or it's possible, and what I inferred from the books, that Jaime joined the Kingsguard as a way to avoid being forced to marry someone else while he continued to schtup Cersei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly give up on this conversation as I'm only arguing in circles anyway. I think Jaime's an ass. I feel zero sympathy for Cersei. I think Incest is bad. I hope neither survive to see the 7th book.

There, I'm done. Have at it. :drunk:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One question, what did Jaime say to Brienne in the bath to infuriate her so much she stood up in front of him? I rewound the dvr numerous times but couldn't make it out.

Something about how she was doing a terrible job of getting him to Kings Landing in one piece, and no wonder Renly died under her protection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One question, what did Jaime say to Brienne in the bath to infuriate her so much she stood up in front of him? I rewound the dvr numerous times but couldn't make it out.

No wonder Renley died with you protecting him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...