Mad Queen Dany

[Jasta11]

Then Abe Lincoln is a mass murderer. I agree that the slave trade won't send in a day, doesn't mean it shouldn't be got away with. You say she is a murderer because she killed slavers .... and how many of those slavers killed and mutilate slaves, why should they get a free pass to do more of it? If a society passed a law that was exterminate all Jews, would you stand aside? I would be one of those people hiding a Jew in the basement, just kinda person I am.

Difference is Lincoln had a plan. Even after the Civil War, there was a strong effort to replace slavery and the industries it supported, and integrate the South's economy into the North's. it still took years, because that sort of thing isin't easy.

Dany had no plan. She came, killed the slavers, installed a couple of powerless puppets and left. There is a vast difference, and that behavior is extremely irresponsible. Doesn't mean she's mad, however.

Also Godwin's Law, there were better scenarios to take, and I hate to see you're implying everyone who doesn't think Dany did the right thing is a nazi collaborateur.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think we're supposed to question (and criticise) how she handles revolution, but I don't think GRRM is deliberately commenting on imperialism, colonialism or the white saviour trope, which is what I was responding to as the poster focused on the culture of Slaver's Bay.

Dany's revolution doesn't work because she loses sight of her goal. She tries to win both the slavers and the slaves, but that won't work effectively unless she abandons one of them. She appears to have reached that conclusion by the end of ADwD.

Of course it sets up an interesting question: what impact will this have on Dany's invasion of Westeros? Are we supposed to make the link between subtle slavery (feudalism) and outright slavery? After all, Dany's first ever chapter comments on the subtle slavery in Pentos.

Part of the reason Dany's revolution doesnt work isnt just losing sight of her goal. She fails to actually unite the factions. In fact, she doesnt really try to unite them at all. She leaves Astapor as a smoking ruin. She leaves Yunkai to their own devices more or less. And she hasnt yet figured out whos controlling the Sons of the Harpy which is key in restoring some semblance of order there in Meereen. Her only attempt is marring Hizdhar and that, as we see, didnt work so well. (Mostly because Hizdhar is not really the key to uniting the Sons.) Unification is key to revolution in the end.

Note how Aegon the Conquerer did just that in Westeros.

Dany doesnt have anyone other than her original faction of (tiny numbers) of Dothraki and her Unsullied on her side. The Brazen Beasts are a step but we arent sure they are actually working to benefit her. Also that her resolve at the end of ADWD isnt going back to Meereen and uniting everyone. Its about Fire and Blood. That doesnt bode well..

[Winterfellian]

Stannis.

Ok Stannis. Then wouldn't you agree that it will be more interesting to read her reaction to Stannis from the POV of the complicated character she is now (perhaps a little darker as things stand) instead of reading it from the perspective of a "Mad Dany"? My response was in regards to the OP who seems to think that a batshit crazy Dany will be interesting, to which I disagree. As I said, she will take a turn towards a darker path, but this doesn't necessarily mean crazy.

[GoldenFleece]

Difference is Lincoln had a plan. Even after the Civil War, there was a strong effort to replace slavery and the industries it supported, and integrate the South's economy into the North's. it still took years, because that sort of thing isin't easy.

Dany had no plan. She came, killed the slavers, installed a couple of powerless puppets and left. There is a vast difference, and that behavior is extremely irresponsible. Doesn't mean she's mad, however.

Also Godwin's Law, there were better scenarios to take, and I hate to see you're implying everyone who doesn't think Dany did the right thing is a nazi collaborateur.

Jasta, not saying that at all (re: Nazis), just saying that a society should be challenged if it is immoral, not to look the other way. Again she didn't leave, she is still in Slaver's Bay and refused to leave on numerous occasions. If you are talking about Astapor we don't what happened regarding the rise of the Butcher King to make any kind of intelligent judgements, she installed a government (where they puppets? I don't recall Dany saying they must obey her at all times). In fact at that time she was going to leave Slaver's Bay, it was what happened at Astapor that convinced her to stay and rule in Meereen.

[Frey Pentos]

Yes, she should have just looked the other way and ignored it. She doesn't want to be queen of Astapor, she doesn't want to rule those lands, that's their society, that's how they've lived long before she was born. It looks evil to us, but to them it's a natural as day and night. That's like me going into the middle-east, seeing that women aren't allowed to show their faces, and deciding I'm just going to nuke the entire country into oblivion, because these people "Don't deserve to live." That's their society, it's normal to them, being right or wrong is only relative to our moral compass.

Are you completely ignorant of the fact that slaves are people to? Should the Nazi's have been allowed to carry on exterminating jews and gypsies because 'That's their society, it's normal to them, being right or wrong is only relative to our moral compass'. If my culture if based on enslaving other people then I live in a culture that deserves everything it gets when someone stronger comes along and takes it off me.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

if Dany had actually bothered to spend a couple of weeks in post-Sacking Astapor, picked a council of freedmen and freedwomen and actually gave them some actual troops to defend their rule, Astapor would still stand. Had she repeated the process in Yunkai and Meereen, there wouldn't have been any sort of slaver resurgence in Slaver's Bay, 'cause the Ghiscari ruling class would be heads on spikes posted on walls.

[lady m]

I have a hard time with the idea that we arent supposed to question what it is Dany does in Slaver's Bay though. In the beginning of her arc, Dany questions how the Dothraki handle "conquering" the Lamb Men. I always felt we were, in turn, supposed to question how Dany handles Slaver's Bay. (Especially now, since its in a state of absolute chaos and theres two dragons loose.) While i agree that her arc is going down the "Conqueror" route and she isnt barking mad, her way of going about this "revolution" isnt exactly ideal.

I agree, Flo, but I'd also say that Dany's adventures in Slavers Bay are exactly intended to be a critique of colonialism. It's probably safe to say that 99.99% of the posters on this board don't approve of slavery, but there's a lot that also don't like havoc and chaos. Dany came in turned a society upside down and offered bean fields as the great economic alternative. And let us not forget that it was the dragon lords of Valyria that sowed the lands of Ghis with salt to pay them back for not giving in to them easily. Slavers Bay is what the Valyrians made it.

Revolutions that work have historically been internal in origin. American, French, Russian, Orange, American Civil War, Communist Chinese, Ghandi, etc., etc., etc., the list is incredibly long, and they are all internal in origin and man power. It's not really revolution if its not internal, I'm not even sure it fits the definition of what a revolution is. It fits conquest, which has an entirely different connotation.

Outside forces seeking to change a society to fit their model of morals is alway colonialism, that's what colonialism means. And it many times leads to revolution and guerrilla warfare, much like we see with Sons of the Harpy, because it's imposed from the outside by a force that thinks it knows better than the natives. That is the history of western based colonialism, from Columbus to present day Afghanistan.

[PatrickStormborn]

I beg to differ. She installed a new government in Astapor - a council of three men, a healer, a scholar and a priest. The rise to power of the butcher king was unpredictable.

Just to clarify - she left a council much larger than that. The healer, scholar and priest simply led the council. The problem was that the council didn't have military power because Astapor's source of strength was its Unsullied. All the council needed was a figurehead to lead them; a figurehead who could prevent any future uprisings.

Maybe that's what she'll bring to Westeros? A representative council who rule the Kingdoms, with her acting as the figurehead to crush any potential uprisings (Aegon the Conqueror did something similar, although the kingdoms were ruled by his sister and his Hand rather than a representative council).

Part of the reason Dany's revolution doesnt work isnt just losing sight of her goal. She fails to actually unite the factions. In fact, she doesnt really try to unite them at all. She leaves Astapor as a smoking ruin. She leaves Yunkai to their own devices more or less. And she hasnt yet figured out whos controlling the Sons of the Harpy which is key in restoring some semblance of order there in Meereen. Her only attempt is marring Hizdhar and that, as we see, didnt work so well. (Mostly because Hizdhar is not really the key to uniting the Sons.) Unification is key to revolution in the end.

Note how Aegon the Conquerer did just that in Westeros.

Dany doesnt have anyone other than her original faction of (tiny numbers) of Dothraki and her Unsullied on her side. The Brazen Beasts are a step but we arent sure they are actually working to benefit her. Also that her resolve at the end of ADWD isnt going back to Meereen and uniting everyone. Its about Fire and Blood. That doesnt bode well..

This is totally incorrect, though. In ADwD Dany faces two wars, one inside the city and one outside the city. So she makes peace with Yunkai and the Meereenese Great Masters. Had Drogon not arrived at the Fighting Pits, Meereen would now be a free city capable of trading, and the war would be over.

The problem is that this isn't what Dany wants. She wants MORE freedom, MORE change, MORE revolution. And she realises by the end of ADwD that the only way to achieve this is if she accepts her role as a conqueror.

If Dany had embraced her role as a conqueror in Meereen, things would be very different. She would have killed hostages each time the Sons of the Harpy attacked, which would stop the attack. Moreover, she would not have even considered the notion of peace with Yunkai; she would have defeated them in the field and restored Astapor. The only reason she couldn't do this was because she couldn't stop the Sons of the Harpy, which was because she didn't want to be a "Butcher Queen". Literally all her problems in ADwD have their root in her unwillingness to be a "butcher".

[TheCrannogDweller]

Ok Stannis. Then wouldn't you agree that it will be more interesting to read her reaction to Stannis from the POV of the complicated character she is now (perhaps a little darker as things stand) instead of reading it from the perspective of a "Mad Dany"? My response was in regards to the OP who seems to think that a batshit crazy Dany will be interesting, to which I disagree. As I said, she will take a turn towards a darker path, but this doesn't necessarily mean crazy.

Oh, I don't think she's mad. She's actually incredibly sane for a person who has gone through what she had to go through - especially considering the fact that it all started when she was 13.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I agree, Flo, but I'd also say that Dany's adventures in Slavers Bay are exactly intended to be a critique of colonialism. It's probably safe to say that 99.99% of the posters on this board don't approve of slavery, but there's a lot that also don't like havoc and chaos. Dany came in turned a society upside down and offered bean fields as the great economic alternative. And let us not forget that it was the dragon lords of Valyria that sowed the lands of Ghis with salt to pay them back for not giving in to them easily. Slavers Bay is what the Valyrians made it.

Revolutions that work have historically been internal in origin. American, French, Russian, Orange, American Civil War, Communist Chinese, Ghandi, etc., etc., etc., the list is incredibly long, and they are all internal in origin and man power. It's not really revolution if its not internal, I'm not even sure it fits the definition of what a revolution is. It fits conquest, which has an entirely different connotation.

Outside forces seeking to change a society to fit their model of morals is alway colonialism, that's what colonialism means. And it many times leads to revolution and guerrilla warfare, much like we see with Sons of the Harpy, because it's imposed from the outside by a force that thinks it knows better than the natives. That is the history of western based colonialism, from Columbus to present day Afghanistan.

Where is the damn like button when you need it. <3

Had Drogon not arrived at the Fighting Pits, Meereen would now be a free city capable of trading, and the war would be over.

Oh really? The Sons of the Harpy are still at large and the problem wasnt solved. Someone tried poisoning her in the pits with those locusts. I hardly find that to be ideal and everything being all peachy keen before Drogon shows up to crash the party.

he only reason she couldn't do this was because she couldn't stop the Sons of the Harpy, which was because she didn't want to be a "Butcher Queen".

Dany couldnt figure out who was controlling the Sons of the Harpy. (at least not yet) Sure, she didnt wanna murder everybody, but i dont recall an actual investigation in who the Harpy was. She figured if she married a Ghiscari, that would solve the problem. No, it doesnt work that way.

[yolkboy]

Oh, I don't think she's mad. She's actually incredibly sane for a person who has gone through what she had to go through - especially considering the fact that it all started when she was 13.

It's worth pointing out that she was clearly psychotic at the end of aDwD. She was seeing things and hearing things that weren't there.

I still don't think this makes her mad though. She was starving and weak.

[TheCrannogDweller]

It's worth pointing out that she was clearly psychotic at the end of aDwD. She was seeing things and hearing things that weren't there.

I still don't think this makes her mad though. She was starving and weak.

And sick. And I agree, that doesn't make her mad.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Dany couldnt figure out who was controlling the Sons of the Harpy. (at least not yet) Sure, she didnt wanna murder everybody, but i dont recall an actual investigation in who the Harpy was.

I recall she went so far as to allow the torture of a child and attempted to use noble children to force their families to give up the Harpy. She was trying.

I think she'd die before she became a butcher queen, but I also think if she comes back to Merreen in a position of power (maybe leading a new, much bigger Khalasaar or with Drogon heeding her commands) she may conclude she was too merciful, attempting to work with the noble families rather then casting them down entirely. That'd be a reckoning...

[Winterfellian]

It's worth pointing out that she was clearly psychotic at the end of aDwD. She was seeing things and hearing things that weren't there.

I still don't think this makes her mad though. She was starving and weak.

Sleep deprivation, starvation, exposure to natural elements, dehydration and sickness will do that to almost everybody.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I recall she went so far as to allow the torture of a child and attempted to use noble children to force their families to give up the Harpy. She was trying.

My point was the lack of an actual intelligence group to sniff out the Harpy. One of the many things that Dany sadly lacked. In fact, im willing to give her enough benefit of the doubt that a lot of the failure as a ruler, is that she didnt have good enough advisers and her own Master of Whisperers. But since she made no attempt to get these things...

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Oh really? The Sons of the Harpy are still at large and the problem wasnt solved. Someone tried poisoning her in the pits with those locusts. I hardly find that to be ideal and everything being all peachy keen before Drogon shows up to crash the party.

...

Dany couldnt figure out who was controlling the Sons of the Harpy. (at least not yet) Sure, she didnt wanna murder everybody, but i dont recall an actual investigation in who the Harpy was. She figured if she married a Ghiscari, that would solve the problem. No, it doesnt work that way.

Seeing as we have no idea who poisoned her yet, I think it might be premature to conclude it was a Son of the Harpy. As to "..who the Harpy was...", I believe Dany concluded that there wasn't one. This may or may not be true, but the central insight of the observation, which I would render as "Meereen is the Harpy," is most likely correct. The identity of a single (still) hypothetical leader is irrelevant. The Meereenese-Ghiscari slavers were never going to accept a Westerosi-Valyrian abolitionist as a ruler, and that is the knowledge that dawns on her during that moment. This relates to the suggestion that the storyline is a comment on colonialism, although I would suggest it's rather more modern (read Iraq, Afghanistan) than that.

It's worth pointing out that she was clearly psychotic at the end of aDwD. She was seeing things and hearing things that weren't there.

I still don't think this makes her mad though. She was starving and weak.

I think the word you are looking for is "feverish". Ned hallucinated in the Black Cells, and I don't think I've ever seen the word "psychotic" applied to him. In addition, the idea that Quaithe is purely an hallucination in that chapter is not conclusively true, given the magic-friendly fantasy setting in which this series takes place.

[Jasta11]

Jasta, not saying that at all (re: Nazis), just saying that a society should be challenged if it is immoral, not to look the other way. Again she didn't leave, she is still in Slaver's Bay and refused to leave on numerous occasions. If you are talking about Astapor we don't what happened regarding the rise of the Butcher King to make any kind of intelligent judgements, she installed a government (where they puppets? I don't recall Dany saying they must obey her at all times). In fact at that time she was going to leave Slaver's Bay, it was what happened at Astapor that convinced her to stay and rule in Meereen.

The problem is they are puppets since their only base of power is Dany's word. They have no military might (Unsullied are gone), no guard to keep things in check (Unsullied offed them), no economic power (Slavery was pretty much Astapor's economy, no it's not realistic but that's how Martin wrote it), no ancient laws that the population obeys, nothing. So as soon as Dany is gone, they are overthrown by a warlord who figures he can run things because he's got thugs at his back. That was completely and utterly predictable, and I'm still baffled enither Jorah nor Barristan have called her out on it.

One thing I can say about Dany, she has a really bad luck when it comes to advisors, they more or less all suck. Compare to Jon who pretty much had the best people in the series watching over him, and it's understandable that she makes bad decisions. Doesn't make her mad, but it doesn't make some of her decisions any less bad, nor does it excuse having innocent people tortured on a whim.

[yolkboy]

I think the word you are looking for is "feverish". Ned hallucinated in the Black Cells, and I don't think I've ever seen the word "psychotic" applied to him. In addition, the idea that Quaithe is purely an hallucination in that chapter is not conclusively true, given the magic-friendly fantasy setting in which this series takes place.

seeing things that aren't there is the definition of psychotic.

"Her mask is made of starlight"

I think it's clear this is a hallucination

But agreed, it's fever/starvation etc.

[Winterfellian]

One thing I can say about Dany, she has a really bad luck when it comes to advisors, they more or less all suck. Compare to Jon who pretty much had the best people in the series watching over him, and it's understandable that she makes bad decisions. Doesn,t make her mad, but it doesn,t make some of her decisions any less bad, nor does it excuse having innocent people tortured on a whim.

I think the word you are looking for is mentors, because as advisers go between Bowen, the drunken septon and Othell "Borroq is going to make his own pig army!!" Yarwick, Jon is stuck with an even worse lot than Daenerys.

[Jasta11]

I think the word you are looking for is mentors, because as advisers go between Bowen, the drunken septon and Othell "Borroq is going to make his own pig army!!" Yarwick, Jon is stuck with an even worse lot than Daenerys.

Yes, right, mentor is a better word. Basically, Jon was surrounded by competent, intelligent, and basically good people for most of his life. Dany had Viserys, Jorah, Drogo and Barristan. Yyyyeah...