Heresy 53

[Hrafntýr]

Sansa's relationship to her warg abilities seems fraught or repressed or something. And I'd have to say that this was the case even before Lady was executed. Sansa has such a terrible sense of whom to trust, and this seems to have been reflected in Lady's behavior, which on the one hand is evidence for Sansa's warging abilities, but on the other hand seems strange, since the other direwolves also give evidence of sensing dangers beyond those of which their human counterpart is aware. Sansa has a strangely autistic streak regarding the motives and emotional states of others, which seems counterintuitive if she's a skinchanger. She also doesn't show the kind of bond with her "littermates" that her siblings seem to share; after all, it is her rather un-Starklike betrayal of Arya that is responsible for the execution of Lady. It's hard to know if Sansa would have developed to be more perceptive and strong had Lady not been killed, or if Lady would merely have reflected Sansa's trusting, naive nature.

ETA: @The Hand: LOVE the idea of Mandy Patinkin as a Martell (though Oberyn and not Doran?)!

[Tyryan Lannister]

ETA: @The Hand: LOVE the idea of Mandy Patinkin as a Martell (though Oberyn and not Doran?)!

Well, the main thing is that Oberyn is (to me, at least) heavily based on Inigo Montoya, especially during the Trial by Combat (the lines as he is stabbing at The Mountain are soooo "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."), so I feel the show should continue the reference

[Tyryan Lannister]

It's hard to know if Sansa would have developed to be more perceptive and strong had Lady not been killed, or if Lady would merely have reflected Sansa's trusting, naive nature.

It is quite strange that the Ghost, Summer, and Nymeria seem to have the strongest bonds with their Starks and yet are the most independent acting of the direwolves (although in Rickon's case it could just be that he hasn't grown into it yet). But especially with Nymeria--it seems that Arya is actually the most powerful of the bunch in regards to skinchanging (she can warg in Nymeria across the fucking sea and she taught herself how to skinchange into other things--something that even Bran had to be coached on), but at the same time of Arya being so powerful, Nymeria seems to be the most independent of the group (now, this is could also be a function of her reflecting Arya, who is also, in my opinion, the most independent of the group).

[Hrafntýr]

Well, the main thing is that Oberyn is (to me, at least) heavily based on Inigo Montoya, especially during the Trial by Combat (the lines as he is stabbing at The Mountain are soooo "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."), so I feel the show should continue the reference

Whoa, I can't believe I never saw that scene that way! Now it seems like it was written for MP to have the part!

ETA: Do you think it was written in homage to that scene? This wouldn't be the first time that I was clueless on a matter of intertextuality.

[Hrafntýr]

It is quite strange that the Ghost, Summer, and Nymeria seem to have the strongest bonds with their Starks and yet are the most independent acting of the direwolves (although in Rickon's case it could just be that he hasn't grown into it yet). But especially with Nymeria--it seems that Arya is actually the most powerful of the bunch in regards to skinchanging (she can warg in Nymeria across the fucking sea and she taught herself how to skinchange into other things--something that even Bran had to be coached on), but at the same time of Arya being so powerful, Nymeria seems to be the most independent of the group (now, this is could also be a function of her reflecting Arya, who is also, in my opinion, the most independent of the group).

This is very insightful. It definitely gets at the mystery of the mutual relfection and possibly enhancement of the human-direwolf relationship, but it also suggests that allowing each partner in the relationship to develop somewhat independently (1) enhances the bond and (2) makes the human more powerful. I agree with everything you say about Arya, and would also note a slight asymmetry in the personae of Arya and Nymeria: Arya's been surviving by being stealthy, learning to be unobserved, and also learning how to play by someone else's rules (even as she learns to subvert them to her own ends), whereas Nymeria has taken a leadership position, basically the alpha female for the hugest wolfpack ever. I wonder if Arya reaps the benefits of Nymeria's leadership experience?

[Little Wing]

Well, Arya was a leader of her Gendry - Hot Pie - Lommy Greenhands little pack ;)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Whoa, I can't believe I never saw that scene that way! Now it seems like it was written for MP to have the part!

ETA: Do you think it was written in homage to that scene? This wouldn't be the first time that I was clueless on a matter of intertextuality.

I've always felt that it was in general in homage to Princess Bride as a whole, but in particular to that scene, yes

[nedhed]

Sorry, one last diversion to the show and PW. Not sure about the spoiler policy wrt the show, but to be on the safe side:

The episode description for the last episode has to have Joff, bc it says "Joff challenges Tywin." I think this is the bit from ASOS Tyrion VI where Joff demands to have the heads off all those who were disloyal, and Tywin wants to pardon all who will give fealty. Then Tywin owns Cersi and Joff.

We've also got "Bran tells a ghost story. In Dragonstone, mercy comes from strange quarters. Dany waits to see if she is a conqueror or a liberator."

That's a lot to fit in.

Psyched to hear Bran tell his ghost story!

[Tyryan Lannister]

Sorry, one last diversion to the show and PW. Not sure about the spoiler policy wrt the show, but to be on the safe side:

The episode description for the last episode has to have Joff, bc it says "Joff challenges Tywin." I think this is the bit from ASOS Tyrion VI where Joff demands to have the heads off all those who were disloyal, and Tywin wants to pardon all who will give fealty. Then Tywin owns Cersi and Joff.

We've also got "Bran tells a ghost story. In Dragonstone, mercy comes from strange quarters. Dany waits to see if she is a conqueror or a liberator."

That's a lot to fit in.

Psyched to hear Bran tell his ghost story!

We don't really have one here; my personal one is wait until after Black Crow has seen it (which would be Monday night Scotland time), and then proceed to dump the spoilers from there. As to the episode descriptions (like what you have above) no real need to spoiler them I don't think. On that note, in agreement with your assessments there. I really hope that this ghost story ends up being the Harrenhall tourney (and failing that the Night's King)

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they juxapose both weddings in the same episode since they seem to have a habit of doing that, eg: both Jon and Ygritte, and Jaime and Brienne sharing abath in last week's episode.

I've been thinking the same thing.

In my head it's a completely over the top montage cutting between Joffrey choking (and people running towards him) and Robb et co. getting slaughtered (a lot of blood). All in slowmotion. And this is the soundtrack.

Luckily I'm not making the show :P. It would be aweful!

[King Tyrion VIII]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they juxapose both weddings in the same episode since they seem to have a habit of doing that, eg: both Jon and Ygritte, and Jaime and Brienne sharing abath in last week's episode.

If both weddings are this season, what would they do for season 4?

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Thas was a nice episode :)

Lots of ammunition with the appearance of Mel there. Specially her dialogue with Thoros. "You're not supposed to have those powers". That was interesting :D Now, will Gendry have the same ending as Edric or something else?

Yey! We'll have a Sam, The Slayer! Or at least it seems so, I was kind of mad when it didn't happened :P Really enjoyed the scenes, Tywin & the Queen of Thorns (so Loras is indeed the only heir to Highgarden), Tryrion & Cersei, Varys & Littlefinger... Definately a nice episode.

PW? Maybe, maybe not, I'd rather it to happen on this season. Why? It'd be so very frustrating to have the season ending so one sided, in the whole of the books, the Lannisters are never so high, never so victorious as right after the RW, with Balon and Robb's death. So it may be better, even for the audience, to for the PW to happen on this season.

Extended episodes..., that'd rock :D

[King Tyrion VIII]

Well, the main thing is that Oberyn is (to me, at least) heavily based on Inigo Montoya, especially during the Trial by Combat (the lines as he is stabbing at The Mountain are soooo "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."), so I feel the show should continue the reference

Inigo Montoya is how I pictured Oberyn the entire time. Patinkin would be great if they do the make up right. He has to look younger than 55.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thas was a nice episode :)

Lots of ammunition with the appearance of Mel there. Specially her dialogue with Thoros. "You're not supposed to have those powers". That was interesting :D Now, will Gendry have the same ending as Edric or something else?

Yey! We'll have a Sam, The Slayer! Or at least it seems so, I was kind of mad when it didn't happened :P Really enjoyed the scenes, Tywin & the Queen of Thorns (so Loras is indeed the only heir to Highgarden), Tryrion & Cersei, Varys & Littlefinger... Definately a nice episode.

PW? Maybe, maybe not, I'd rather it to happen on this season. Why? It'd be so very frustrating to have the season ending so one sided, in the whole of the books, the Lannisters are never so high, never so victorious as right after the RW, with Balon and Robb's death. So it may be better, even for the audience, to for the PW to happen on this season.

Extended episodes..., that'd rock :D

I feel Gendry is going to be the stand in for Edric, and then, when the time comes for Davos to ship Edric off to Lys, he will instead send Gendry back to the Brotherhood (Gendry kind of has to be there for some things that we haven't yet seen in the books I feel--namely when Jaime goes before Stoneheart, sees him, and goes "You're one of Robert's bastards, boy")

[Tyryan Lannister]

Inigo Montoya is how I pictured Oberyn the entire time. Patinkin would be great if they do the make up right. He has to look younger than 55.

not necessarily. First, Tywin definitely does not look younger than 55, but I still would not want to face the guy in hand to hand combat--and even more so for Ser Barry the Bold. Second, instead of making Oberyn younger they could make Doran that much more older, thus maintaining that age gap

[Pelican]

Black Crow: I'm more inclined therefore to see Jon as King of Winter not only asserting dominion over the Otherlanders and so hold them in check while at the same time defeating the Red Lot, perhaps by shoving said bone dagger into our Mel. At the same time, Dany as Azor Ahai and the Prince that was promised must do the same out east ...

This outcome would be such an ironic comment on telling and believing in prophecy: Mel thinks she has foreseen Azor Ahai, but what she really saw was her own fate -- and she didn't notice that although she would be playing Nissa Nissa, her slayer was not actually AA and he certainly didn't love her.

I know that's not what you were getting at, but it's a reminder of how these prophecies may apply to different people in different ways, and can bite the unwary.

The discussion about the bone dagger and the Others' weapons has been really interesting. Every time the White Knife river gets mentioned, it makes me wonder about who named things and why. "... a long cruel winter fell," says Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard." And then Ice Eyes shows up.

[Tyryan Lannister]

The discussion about the bone dagger and the Others' weapons has been really interesting. Every time the White Knife river gets mentioned, it makes me wonder about who named things and why. "... a long cruel winter fell," says Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard." And then Ice Eyes shows up.

...with the full fury of the North, and afterwards the denizens of the Wolf's Den hung sacrificial offerings from the weirwoods. Just adding to what I believe to be your point (that it is indicitive of a connection between all the aspects of the North--Starks, Children, wargs, greenseers, weirwoods, AND White Walkers)

[Pelican]

Yes, I think the story of the North is all of one piece, although the connections between the elements may not be immediately visible and some of it is now only dimly understood.

Here is one possible example: the stress on returning the bones of the fallen/the warded tombs in the Stark crypt/the bones remember/skulls around Jon/wights and Walkers/bones in the CoTF cave/bone daggers/weirwoods white as bone -- Which of these are connected and in what order? It may be that the custom of returning bones to their home is the modern expression of something ancient that involved some very different meaning or need.

It's why "The North Remembers" is the world's most frustrating motto.

[Joken79]

...with the full fury of the North, and afterwards the denizens of the Wolf's Den hung sacrificial offerings from the weirwoods. Just adding to what I believe to be your point (that it is indicitive of a connection between all the aspects of the North--Starks, Children, wargs, greenseers, weirwoods, AND White Walkers)

Yes Ice Eyes was a cruel one. I think that Sansa is the one of the six Stark kids with least empathy what could make her a female "Ice Eyes".

She lost her wolve but I think the wolve will be replaced by a dog which hates nothing more than fire.

To the White Knife: It seems it is his form looking like a knife in the landscape of the north.

[Black Crow]

We don't really have one here; my personal one is wait until after Black Crow has seen it (which would be Monday night Scotland time), and then proceed to dump the spoilers from there. As to the episode descriptions (like what you have above) no real need to spoiler them I don't think. On that note, in agreement with your assessments there. I really hope that this ghost story ends up being the Harrenhall tourney (and failing that the Night's King)

OK, I've seen it, and yes a good one. Mel is definitely a stand-in for the Ghost of High-heart, but presumably just a straightforward bit of character consolidation and avoiding setting up a whole scene just for the one line. It does rather confirm though that when the Ghost of High Heart recoild from Arya complaining that she smells of death it was a foreshadowing of her turning into an assassin.

Interesting that Mel and Thoros chatted in High Valyrian; probably logical but interesting nevertheless.

Alas poor Ros, but she was invented for the show... I await Varys' response

Reaching the top of the Wall was interesting, I don't know whether it was intentional (from an heretical point of view) but there was a very clear picture not just of the different sides of the Wall, but a definite feel of different realms.