Heresy 53

[Black Crow]

It was indeed a post above who mentioned the bone dagger of Val who got me thinking about a weapon against the fiery ones. But I found no satisfying reason why bone should kill them.

Well it is a question of magic. When Sam stabbed that guy he didn't just fall over and bleed to death...

Similarly we might find that if Val or Jon were to stab say Bowen Marsh with that bone dagger he would bleed, but if Melisandre was stabbed with it we might see her burn up and just as Craster's boy eventually disappeared in a swirl of ice crystals she may likewise go off in a puff of smoke. :cool4:

[nedhed]

Sounds logical, but I fear that's to simple. :laugh:

Yea, that's definitely the middle ground between it to. I think of it this way: imagine the universe with no stars, nothing, absolute zero temps everywhere. Then stars pop up, then planets, etc, which are frozen or burning depending on proximity to stars. Get the balance just right, and you get water, heat/cold conditions suitable for life, etc. then you start to get a little nervous if your planets orbit swings too far one way or the other (sound familiar?) and eventually your proximity to the star results in fiery destruction as the star grows, then the star dies, and it's cold again. Comforting, no?

so it's all one spectrum. Absolute zero one end, nuclear energy at the other, fire and ice closet to the middle, with water perfectly between them, the interaction of it all creates an atmosphere and this air, and boom, you've got your elements.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

We know that the Others can be killed by dragonglass.

But what might be a weapon against those like Melissandre?

Quote from Melissandre:

"Dragonglass. Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other.”

What is the opposite of "frozen fire"?

It's also interesting that Melissandre didn't know that the dragonglass can kill the Others . I think that the fiery ones should know their enemy.

Pop Tarts. So cool they're hot. So hot, they're cool. It's worth a shot at least.

[Gordias]

Didn't seem to do Moqorro any harm. There is of course the story of the dark-eyed youth preparing some weirwood arrows, but I do wonder about bone/antler daggers.

I think it's quite possible bone, blood or weirwood bark, the preserved bits of living creatures basically, is the weapon against the Red Lot. We have a bit of circumstantial evidence with this knowing that Val carries a dagger, the scene with the boy fletching arrows out of weirwood bark, etc. Another stretch is pulling on the fact that obsidian in real life was predominantly used to tip arrows and make crude-weapons, alongside sharpened bones and stone. There's also the nice thematic cohesion of obsidian being vulcanized lava (and there seems to be some connection between dragons/volcano), while weirwood bark or bones are the life preserved after-effects of life (and there definitely seems to be some connection between weirwoods and the Others; where bones fit in, not sure).

[Joken79]

Pop Tarts. So cool they're hot. So hot, they're cool. It's worth a shot at least.

:lol:

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Not that it'd have a reason for it to really matter but, absolute zero is a laboratory theoretical degree at wich it's estipulated to be no energy at an atomic level, wich would mean a complete stillness. Not even our cool WWs could hope to reach those temperatures without well, freezing?

Aren't the WWs currently using some sort of ice blades? Coudn't those be their conterpart to dragonglass, instead of the weirwood?

[Black Crow]

I think it's quite possible bone, blood or weirwood bark, the preserved bits of living creatures basically, is the weapon against the Red Lot. We have a bit of circumstantial evidence with this knowing that Val carries a dagger, the scene with the boy fletching arrows out of weirwood bark, etc. Another stretch is pulling on the fact that obsidian in real life was predominantly used to tip arrows and make crude-weapons, alongside sharpened bones and stone. There's also the nice thematic cohesion of obsidian being vulcanized lava (and there seems to be some connection between dragons/volcano), while weirwood bark or bones are the life preserved after-effects of life (and there definitely seems to be some connection between weirwoods and the Others; where bones fit in, not sure).

Its also worth reflecting that obsidian is black, while as we're constantly reminded weirwood and bone are white.

[Black Crow]

Aren't the WWs currently using some sort of ice blades? Coudn't those be their conterpart to dragonglass, instead of the weirwood?

Its entirely possible, but I think what we're looking for here are weapons that ordinary mortals can use; and I'm pretty sold on the idea of white weirwood and bone.

[nedhed]

Yea, I'm no Steven hawking by any means, just whatever temperature it is in deep space. Which would be colder with no stars, I think. If that "could'" be contained by some magic (like a super version of whatever supercools semiconductors- interestingly facilitating the transfer of heat) it could be used. Corollary on the other side is nuclear weapons. I think you get my drift. And supposedly it's all I woven in some sort of multidimensional fashion that blows the idea of opposites out of the water.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent

[Joken79]

Not that it'd have a reason it to really matter but, absolute zero is a laboratory theoretical degree at wich it's estipulated to be no energy at an atomic level, wich would mean a complete stillness. Not even our cool WWs could hope to reach those temperatures without well, freezing?

Aren't the WWs currently using some sort of ice blades? Coudn't those be their conterpart to dragonglass, instead of the weirwood?

The ice blades seem to be the normal weapons of the Others used for example against humans as seen in the prologue of AGOT. They might also work against the red lot.

But at the moment I prefer weapons of a material that humans have access to like bone or weirwood.

[nedhed]

Edited: something special to contain super cold temps? Freon infused blade that's somehow not too brittle, somehow forged in the inverse manner of Azores axis sword? (Damn autocorrect)

[nedhed]

And now Lord Snow has to get cold enough to hang on to it. He felt pretty cold at end of dwd. Maybe Val's kiss gets him cold enough, then he had to stab her with the bastard blade to infuse it with coldness?

[Hrafntýr]

I agree that there's evidence to suggest that someone learned that weirwood was an effective weapon against dragons. Whether it works against fire demons (if there are fire demons) or against Mel etc. remains to be seen.

My thoughts on this subject often return to the sword Dawn. It is sky-forged, i.e. forged without the use of terrestrial fire, and is the right color (indeed, it's appearance evokes the "armor" of the WWs). And of course, Dawn is the light-bringer, in a literal sense. So, meteorite iron? Iron's definitely important, as we've discussed before regarding the swords in the crypts at Winterfell, and the general lore of iron with respect to fairies.

But really, what one wants is some very nice symmetry: as dragonglass is cooled lava, we want something that is fluid ice.

Also, if black is the color to use against white, what is the color to use against red?

[alienarea]

I agree that there's evidence to suggest that someone learned that weirwood was an effective weapon against dragons. Whether it works against fire demons (if there are fire demons) or against Mel etc. remains to be seen.

My thoughts on this subject often return to the sword Dawn. It is sky-forged, i.e. forged without the use of terrestrial fire, and is the right color (indeed, it's appearance evokes the "armor" of the WWs). And of course, Dawn is the light-bringer, in a literal sense. So, meteorite iron? Iron's definitely important, as we've discussed before regarding the swords in the crypts at Winterfell, and the general lore of iron with respect to fairies.

But really, what one wants is some very nice symmetry: as dragonglass is cooled lava, we want something that is fluid ice.

Also, if black is the color to use against white, what is the color to use against red?

The color to use against red is green. Complementary colors, you know.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Red is a primal color..., no real opposite, maybe the sub color green, just for not containing red in it. Either way, if it's about the fire spirits/shadows/demons, their color seems to be black (even obsidian is black), wich makes weirwood or those antler bones a good solid candidate.

Hmmm, I was thinking that maybe those ice blades of the WWs would be made of a mineral found on the Lands of always Winter. That could mean that they're proper to be wield by humans, but, if that's the case, it's not a direct equivalent to dragonglass, since it's even better: while steels beats dragonglass (according to the wars againt the CotF), those ice blades seemed entirely superior to steel. Or maybe those the WWs are using are magicaly enchanted.

[Hrafntýr]

What's interesting is that the trio of red, white, black is found across cultures as fundamental conceptual categories (it's been very well studied by anthropologists). This trio works better with the transformational/processual sort of logic that heresy prefers to the dualism of, say, the red lot. Another problem with applying a dualistic symmetry is that we don't know whether the fire demons are red or black, so, it would be hard to know if the weapon to be used against them is white or red.

[Gordias]

Red is a primal color..., no real opposite, maybe the sub color green, just for not containing red in it.

Well, if we go by the human experience, color pigmentation is offset by red/green, blue/yellow. You can't actually see red and green at the same time at the pigmental level; if it's not red it's green, and if it's not green it's red (neato).

I like the Black/White references, and this Red/Green parallel (which rings for me the CotF). What's really interesting though is now we get to the Faceless Men- who are black and white, red god and others and all the rest put together. Hm..

[Snow Whyte]

Hmmm, how to defeat Stannis's "red witch"? Throw a bucket of water on her? ;) J/K

Trying to think what might be used against Melisandre, Moqorro, etc. is an interesting thought. Are they different than Lord Beric and Lady Stoneheart, in that they received the last kiss (that is what Thoros names it when he talks with Arya and Beric in SoS) while still living, (done as part of some ritual, perhaps)? Lord Beric, at least, has come to the moment of death, or crossed the threshold however briefly, by ordinary weapons.

I agree that there's evidence to suggest that someone learned that weirwood was an effective weapon against dragons. Whether it works against fire demons (if there are fire demons) or against Mel etc. remains to be seen.

My thoughts on this subject often return to the sword Dawn. It is sky-forged, i.e. forged without the use of terrestrial fire, and is the right color (indeed, it's appearance evokes the "armor" of the WWs). And of course, Dawn is the light-bringer, in a literal sense. So, meteorite iron? Iron's definitely important, as we've discussed before regarding the swords in the crypts at Winterfell, and the general lore of iron with respect to fairies.

But really, what one wants is some very nice symmetry: as dragonglass is cooled lava, we want something that is fluid ice.

If dragonglass is "frozen fire," then is "burning ice" what is needed? Anyway, I do think weirwood would be a likely choice, although bone might be stronger. Unless the blade is reinforced with magic, perhaps. And you all say that Val's bone knife came back with her after searching out Tormund? Perhaps she thought she might need it now, having encountered Melisandre? (And Val wasn't free to leave Castle Black before her quest.) What is the description of the knife? I don't have a copy of DwD about. I would be somewhat amused to see Mel reduced to a pile of burnt ash, should someone stab her with a weirwood-and-bone dagger at some point.

Another thought: If weirwood is a potential weapon against the Burned ones, could that be a significant motivation behind Mel's requiring the weirwoods to be burnt?

(Edited for verbal perfection, because I can't help myself.)

[Stark@heart]

Ohhh, just had a cool thought, probably from the cool fan art that was shared. What if....

Jon tries Beric's trick with the blood making the sword take flame and instead of fire he gets burning ice? on his Valeryan steel?

And by the way... How the hell does Beric know to do that? From Thoros? Maybe he figured it out on his own but if it's something that Thoros knows that Mel doesn't then, how screwed poor Stannis truely is. Being "kissed" back to life is never mentioned in relation to AA and the flaming sword Beric used could be a coincidence or happened by accident if you will but...

If Mel knows then why did she fake a sword for Stannis? Was she waiting for him to properly die so she can "kiss" him and make him AA? Then tell him how to make the flaming blood sword?

I think she'll turn that attention to Jon now but as I said before, I think the Wildlings will be the ones to end up with Jon's body and it will be Val who cares for him while he's visited by Bran and BR and given some of the info we've all been waiting for.

[Tyryan Lannister]

It's also interesting that Melissandre didn't know that the dragonglass can kill the Others . I think that the fiery ones should know their enemy.

Well, Mel seems to not even know of the existence of the White Walkers, Wights, and possibly even the Night's Watch until Davos brings the events of the North to Stannis' attention

Isn't there a theory that it has to do with putting his blood in leaches and burning ( or freezing) them? Blood magic

So Edric Storm is now immortal? :eek:

I agree that there's evidence to suggest that someone learned that weirwood was an effective weapon against dragons. Whether it works against fire demons (if there are fire demons) or against Mel etc. remains to be seen.

My thoughts on this subject often return to the sword Dawn. It is sky-forged, i.e. forged without the use of terrestrial fire, and is the right color (indeed, it's appearance evokes the "armor" of the WWs). And of course, Dawn is the light-bringer, in a literal sense. So, meteorite iron? Iron's definitely important, as we've discussed before regarding the swords in the crypts at Winterfell, and the general lore of iron with respect to fairies.

But really, what one wants is some very nice symmetry: as dragonglass is cooled lava, we want something that is fluid ice.

Didn't you just provide us with that with your immediately preceding point about Dawn? I am no astrophysicist, but my rudimentary knowledge of subject tells me that, while they are in space, asteroids and the like tend to have chunks of ice imbeded in them--and when it crashed into the earth (thus becoming a meteor(ite? can never remember the difference)), the ice would melt due to the intense heat provided by the atmospheric friction--so anything from a meteor could be considered containing "fluid ice"

Also, if black is the color to use against white, what is the color to use against red?

The color to use against red is green. Complementary colors, you know.

Yeppers--and, while Water is seen as the antithesis to Fire, the fact of the matter is that a bucket of Earth (usually sand) does just as well of a job at extinguishing a campfire.

And adds another level of potential future conflict with Rickon, seeing as Shaggydog is the one with Green Eyes (while Ghost is of course the one with Red Eyes)

If dragonglass is "frozen fire," then is "burning ice" what is needed?

I refer you to my above comment on this issue--while crashing to the earth, a meteor(ite?)'s ice will melt super fast; in essence, it will "burn up", thus giving the crashed meteor the description of being associated with "fluid" or "burning" ice.