Heresy 53

[Hrafntýr]

But going with this, if there is some sort of symmetry here, then the WWs were once human, just as were Mel and Moqorro, rather than, say, a different race?

[Hrafntýr]

Fire walkers? Red walkers? perhaps even black walkers, if they are indeed charred to a crisp beneath their glamour. I still like fire demons better, but thise are a little more symmetrical.

Oooh, I like "black walkers"!!

[nedhed]

Indeed, much as I enjoy discussing the philosophy, in the end this is Martin's world, and that world is as he has made it, which is why its germaine to build and extrapolate on the clues contained in the text and identify the references to sources - such as Celtic mythology - we still need to keep our feet on the ground and within the bounds of his world. Parallels are one thing, tangents are quite another.

I wonder if the Phil experts might be able to make heretical contributions with reference to the maesters and the seven. I think the seven are analogous to Christianity, whic-if I'm not mistaken- owes a great deal to Plato and Aristotle, whereas maesters reject magic in the same way philosophers reach for non-magical explanations for the things we can't understand.

[Crows Eye]

hello heretics, long-time lurker (read the first 17 heresies or so, as they happened) but brand new poster. I basically made an account to participate in the Heresies. Hi.

There was a thread a while back theorizing that Val and her sister (can't recall her name, Mance's "wife"), were not sisters in the actual sense but actually sisters of the same "coven" for want of a better word.

If you ever read Fritz Lieber's books sword and deviltry, which introduces us to Fafhred and the Grey Mouser, Fafrhed's ice magic weilding, dressed in all white, shrew of a mother very much matches Val's description. Fafrhed's mother is often referred to as an ice spider or the great white spider of death. Fafhred's mom also kills Fafrhed's dad by causing an avalanche to fall on him as he's scaling a mountain. Remember how Val's "boyfriend" dies? He dies scaling the wall when it suddenly sheds a big piece of itself killing him in an avalanche.

So maybe, just maybe, there are some "white" priests who just happen to be a lot more circumspect than their red brethren.

there are loads of references to wildling culture being transmitted through the female line - Mance's cloak, for example, is sewn by the daughter of the woman his patrol sought. Osha says she learned everything she knows from her mother, and I think Ygritte does too.

Dalla is also treated with reverence by Mance and the Wildlings. Val says something like: "not even Dalla could boast of a giant to protect her," She's present at Mance's military meetings, and is allowed to speak openly ("without the Wall, what's the stop the Others?" or something)

Dalla also quotes the Horned Lord ("sorcery is like a sword with no hilt..."), a King Beyond the Wall from (probably) before the Conquest. How is it she is able to quote the Horned Lord, without being part of some broader cultural tradition?

When Val arrives back at the wall, she is clad entirely in White clothing, which she says belonged to Dalla (red priests...white priests). She is wearing a bone knife, which seems to be of more symbolic value than function value.

In other words, there's a lot of evidence to support the existence of a white (female) priesthood.

I wonder if you've discussed this question at all in the past months, but it's something that I find very interesting:

Who is Ned Stark's mother?

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Not an expert at all, just a student.

I know GRRM must have his own philosophy, specially for his own fictional universe. I wrote those thoughts just to give us a wider angle into this matter. But, dispite all, I find the aristotelic approach not that distant or unlikely, obviosly, not being stricktly aristotelic.

About the wights, maybe their decay is at such point that only their 'lizard' brain remains, wich is actually not really consistent with, for example, Catelyn's ressurection (higher brain cells die withing minutes of lack of oxigen). Besides, considering a human soul would decay into an animal soul would be heresy, my dear self... Oh, wait BUSTED :dunce:

Now, getting serious again, about nedhed's question. Yes, christian philosophy and theology owes a great deal to Plato and Aristotle. The seven are only similar to God in having those aspects, though God's Trinity, at least an approach to It, can be explained rationally and not just through faith (well, you'd have to believe in God first, and one can actually 'deduce' God's existance ratioanally also... well, those are another boards matters :cool4: ). Getting back to it, while the seven aspects of the andal's god are but close figures to whom identify and relate certain spheres of influence and pray to (maybe that's what non-christians could believe of the Trinity...), God's persons are rationaly separated. I won't try to explain the doctrine here, it'd be to damn hard, but it goes something like this: At the very beggining of eternity, there's the Father, who in a single act, gets to know himself entirely, as He knows himself entirely, given that such knowledge is complete He generates a complete separate and independant being known as the Son, whom represents knowledge, verb, wisdom. Now, in inmediate sequence, the Father and the Son love eachother completely, given that love is another kind of 'image' (such as knowledge is) yet a third person is proceeds from them both, and that Love is what we call the Holy Spirit. So there you go, three separate beings, persons, of a same nature, they are one and the same, and yet they're three persons. Again, it has it's logic, but there's faith in the way also.

About maesters and philosophers, I'd say that maybe they relate in the sense philosophers wanted to go further that the myths and actually get to know better how reality works. But, if the maesters want to just elimite magic, considering it does exists in that world, I'd say they're fundamentalist and reductionists, even. Since they've found something they can't quiet grasp magic, they'd rather eliminate it from the world than to keep studying it. Reminds me of Brainiac's bug, that in order to know EVERYTHING he went on destroying worlds and worlds after learning from them a merely laboratory version of them...

Was that what you were asking, nedhed? I hope to have been of use.

About the fire beings..., I'd like the name Fire Walkers :D , since not all of them are black, or at least don't seems so, but hell, Black Walkers woudn't be bad either, it'd actually be in perfect opposition to our icy WWs.

P.S.: For further and more accurate information about those theology themes, I'd recomend reaching proper sources. You may ask me for them.

[wolfmaid7]

Wolfmaid, that cosmovision is entirely different from the one I'm familiar with :s in wich we call soul to the substance/form/idea of a material being and spirit to that wich has absolutely no connection to matter. We humans have a spiritual soul (a soul wich, in opposition to regular souls, because of its intelligence and stuff... can trascend death), in ASoIaF every known material and intelligent being would also have a spiritual soul. Also, the soul (form) is what informs the matter, conforming it as a whole. Traditionally, in occident and for what I've learn, the spirit would represent virtue and no material limitation, and it'd be the body the one of desires and weaknesses. I don't like refering the soul/spirit as energy, since energy=matter so... well that would mess many things up.

You made me remember that there are vegetal souls, animal souls, spiritual souls and spirit. Maybe the wights have some kind of animal soul implanted through magic? Hmmm, I find myself again in that dilema about harnessing large amounts of magic in order to control such vast hosts :s

About BC's hypothesis... NICE child's cruelty is a thing we see many a horror movie. It's creepy, disturbing and... well, seems a fact. What's the charge? perversion of infants?

That's why i said in "some".Sure there are differing opinions on Soul and Spirit relations to each other. Energy is inherent in everything,everything being inanimate or animate resonates with their own energy that is the crux to which those who run in my circle feel the subtle changes in the seasons or know the secrets of reading the aura.We all resonate our own songs hell even the stars sing.But you can be more soul (cold feminine)and less spirit ( Masculine/hot) vice versa.

I honestly, don't see the difference in what your saying to what i'm saying because what your describing in essence is synergism of the two ,which is what's suppose to happen.However,there are instance through trauma or interference that sync can be disrupted. Some cultures the soul can wander or a persons Spirit can be harness because it is energy.In many ancient cultures your spirit is akin to a candle burning or just a flame because it is energy. You right the Spirit has no limitation i.e the geese and need to fly south expression without the soul it has no limits sometimes that's good,sometimes that bad.You said the Soul as you know it is linked to virtue again that's no different than morality as i indicated above.

Therefore,the interpretation of AOSAI,characters that are hot and cold are perfect if you recognize the "humoral themes" . It may not be what GRRM is thinking but there are similarities to these ideologies.

Edit: Typos

[Midnight Diamondstar]

I've raised this idea before, too. And, speaking to the question of mundane practices with supernatural precedents, the whole human obsession with lineage, and all the ways in the stories in which "love" thwarts or promotes this obsession, could be seen as a mundane application of "sperm magic"! It's the magic of life, in short.

And what of a woman's fertility cycle? An egg, a thickened lining of blood within a womb (98.6 degrees). So is it "egg" or womb magic? It does fit Dany's story. At the end of ADWD, she appeared to have heavy vaginal bleeding. Maybe it was Craster's sons who became WW, but perhaps, female babies were sacrificed to become (female?) Fire Demons?

I think I broke yet another pot.

[nedhed]

@ marti, I was relating Christianity and the seven on a political level in the sense that both religions seem to be organized in a way to facilitate social acceptance of weth/power inequality. I think the "new" thing that Christianity brought to the table was the idea that you shouldn't worry about your earthly suffering bc there's an ideal realm you'll enter when you die, whic is drawn from plato, and it's used to engender meek values that facilitate acquiescence to situations that would otherwise be unfair. That's why the Romans did such a 180 on it, and eventually the church became kingmakers and settled succession disputes. Further, it was able to proliferate bc of its ability to absorb pagan themes(eg you've got the goddess in Mary, you e got the saints if you're into larger pantheons, etc). I think the step tons also wield that kind of political power and the faith if the seven also absorbs a lot of pagan beliefs, and ultimately have political influence by virtue of being able to "bless" political actions, even when the masses would otherwise find them unfair.

With the maesters, I'd say they're more men of "science," and as you know philosophers were traditionally jacks of all trades when it came to matters of the intellect (no Wittgenstein, no calculus, no calculus, no advanced engineering, and so on)

I would go far as to say that the four way push-pull between human brute strength, magic, the faith, and the maesters essentially tracks Nietzches analysis that early human clams were led by the strongest, society's became more complex with shamen who displaced the strongmen, then more advanced civilazitions were glued together with organized religion, supplanting the shamens, and now we're in an age of science where the most technologically developed have the most power.

[King Tyrion VIII]

There was a thread a while back theorizing that Val and her sister (can't recall her name, Mance's "wife"), were not sisters in the actual sense but actually sisters of the same "coven" for want of a better word.

If you ever read Fritz Lieber's books sword and deviltry, which introduces us to Fafhred and the Grey Mouser, Fafrhed's ice magic weilding, dressed in all white, shrew of a mother very much matches Val's description. Fafrhed's mother is often referred to as an ice spider or the great white spider of death. Fafhred's mom also kills Fafrhed's dad by causing an avalanche to fall on him as he's scaling a mountain. Remember how Val's "boyfriend" dies? He dies scaling the wall when it suddenly sheds a big piece of itself killing him in an avalanche.

So maybe, just maybe, there are some "white" priests who just happen to be a lot more circumspect than their red brethren.

Oh I love it. Any other white priest candidates? I'm stretching by suggesting maybe the Other that the Night King gets involved with.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

@nedhead Well in the matter of hierarchy and pyramidal structure, you're right. Basically, the only thing that matters is your relationship with God through the given 'tools' the Church provides wich, ideed, seems very similiar to the seven's faith. Humbleness and obedience to men is a reflection of those attitudes towards God, and accepting gladly your life while openly and radicaly living your faith despite the suffering and persecution it may lead to, is also an act of humbleness towards God's will.

In our histor there have been many reductioninst movements on science, some maesters seem to behave like that. A reductionism tries to explain reality ignoring, negating, certains aspects of it. Such as considering that all reality can be explained in numbers. Well, those maesters who will actively seek to destroy magic and everything it involves would be having that bad attitude instead of being real scientists, devoted to the truth of things. You're right about old philosophers, they were jack of all trades, indeed, wich provided them with a wider approach into reality.

I also agree with the thought of our early social evolution was lead by that rule of the strongest. But scientists were never leaders, and they won't be, yet their politics arevery often founded on philosophical movements.

White priests? Don't we have enough already with the WWs? I'm scared :stillsick:

P.S.: Time already for me (Martín Coronel) to have a 'proper' profile update ^_^ Sorry for the posible confusion.

Edit: Adding this: Tyrion's post reminded me of that matter, I belive both fire and ice beings are like vampires, werewolfs, and such. I don't know many of changelings/faerie/sidhe but don't they abduct babies so they can turn them into changelings also?

[King Tyrion VIII]

But going with this, if there is some sort of symmetry here, then the WWs were once human, just as were Mel and Moqorro, rather than, say, a different race?

WW can be Craster's sons and other humans who have been turned into WW. It is still entirely possible the Others are a humanoid race. Perhaps human/nearly human.

[nedhed]

@ Martin, I mean that we live in an age of science because technology has become so advanced that those who can best and most broadly deploy it have the most power. So while POTUS isn't a scientist, and neither are major CEOs (ate asst not necessarily) the great power they wield is based on their access to deploying and profiting from technology, military, consumer goods, etc. so the scientists supplant the priests when it comes to the group with the most influence on how the most complex civilizations interact and resolve conflict. Religion still plays a role, but it's being phased out in the 1st world and more slowly in the third, at least insofar as it influences political decisionmaking and thus has power over human affairs. Essentially, the shift that began during the renaissance when reason began to get major visibility and worked toward a tipping point - I'd say the industrial revolution, where it became more important.

I don't think the maesters are that far along yet- the septons still hold considerable power over influencing culture- but I think they were working toward that tipping point.

The thing about ASOIAF is it turns out that maybe those shamens were really more tapped into the supernatural than most men (and that there is a supernatural) and they're making a comeback. But, the strongmen and the organized religion and the scientists are very much in the mix.

Anyway, perhaps we do need an Anthropologocal/Metaphysical Analysis of Westeros (AMAW) thread after all ;)

I guess the thing is, most of those connections are prob just a testament to how realistic Martins world is as opposed to potential "source material" that might have influenced him and thus provide clues to what's going to happen next.

[Black Crow]

But going with this, if there is some sort of symmetry here, then the WWs were once human, just as were Mel and Moqorro, rather than, say, a different race?

I think that the point of the changeling business, which is such an integral part of Faerie legend, is the need to take human consorts and servants not only to do the things they themselves can't, also but to keep it all going.

At a very basic level if you are geared up to live forever, or at least as near to forever as makes no difference, reproduction doesn't come very highly in the order of things. This is all very well up to a point, but you can't respond to change and to consequent losses except by taking changelings.

This is of course exactly what we're seeing with Bran. The Children/Singers live for a very long time but as a people they aren't coping with their losses, which is why they have effectively kidnapped first Bloodraven and now Bran. He is as much a changeling as Craster's sons, which is why those wights are sitting outside the cave to ensure he doesn't get away until his transformation is complete.

[Black Crow]

When Val arrives back at the wall, she is clad entirely in White clothing, which she says belonged to Dalla (red priests...white priests). She is wearing a bone knife, which seems to be of more symbolic value than function value.

Like the antler dagger we think Gared may have used to kill the she-wolf?

[brut]

Wrote a lengthy post on Hort of Winter

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60518-the-horn-of-joramunfound/page__st__20#entry4393512

but it seems more appropriate here. To summarize, my assumption was that the Horned Lord was in possession of the Horn of Winter. But as we know he was against magic due to its unpredictability. I also assume that Horn has nothing to do with the sounding instrument, but is rather akin of antler. Knowing how Dalla and Val quote the Horned Lord, they may be associated with him as followers. It is also significant that the bone knife appears only after Val returns to the Wall after seeking out Tormund. But she is also very specific about moon phases, and the time of her return. Might be she has performed some sort of ritual while absent beyond the Wall. Some sort of initiation? Which, interestingly enough, extrapolates into Dalla and Val actually knowing of the Horn's location

[Black Crow]

Its an interesting one. In Celtic mythology the horns as worn for example by Herne the Hunter are traditionally portrayed as antlers. Stags are of course “noble” beasts. While I don’t see antlers capable of being sounded in the same way as bovine (or dragon) ones, it is common for whistles to be made from antler bone.

I am however very interested in seeing a connection between Val’s bone dagger and the antler bone dagger which we think may have been used to kill the she-wolf. Such a connection would not only be consistent with Jon’s observation that Ghost belongs to the Old Gods, but would also strongly support the theory that there is a significance to the AGoT prologue beyond introducing the Otherlanders and that Gared was spared to deliver the she-wolf in the first place.

As to the particular significance of Val’s “bone” dagger, which could well be antler-bone, and the antler bone dagger used to kill the she-wolf, the most obvious point is that neither are of iron, far less any other kind of metal.

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

This is the song of ice (white) and fire (red). We have discussed a lot about blood (red) sacrifice in conjunction with the followers of R'hollor. But the Night King gave his seed (white) to the pale woman, as we suspect a follower of the Great Other.

In short: the Others practice sperm magic.

What happens when they get king's sperm?

(Too bad they never met Robert. He would have donated more than they could handle).

Ever read Wildcards? There's a tantric mage prominently freatured.

[brut]

Indeed, BC, when thinking of Val's "bone" dagger, the "antler bone" is very likely. Mance and Dalla's tent seems to be adorned with them too:

aSoS Jon CH7

"There was no doubt doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely through the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men."

And on top of that, the tent is white, as if we needed another nod at Dalla's significance.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

@nedhed, I don't think we're there yet. I've known that accordging to social inquirys the people of USA (I'm refering to them not only because the study was done there, but for they're supposed to be the model of first world) still believes the Pope as the second most influencial leader in the world (right after their own president). While technology gives power, that still falls into the aspect of 'strenght', since more advanced weaponry means an stronger army, yet the scientists only provide their advances not their opinions, and if they do give opinions, they may or may not be taken into account. Have the world listened to them warning us about the consume of fosil fuels? Economists are better regarded than scientists. That curious fact is so radical, that while biology claims human life begins at the moment of conception, pro choice thinkers/philosophers disregard entirely that wich is considered by biologists a fact. I have no proper studies on sociology, but I'd say our line of influences would go somewhat like this: politics-->economics--->philosophy--->religion.

Getting back to ASoIaF, maesters are raised to be counslers to their lords, I'd say they're very influential on every 'lordly' decition, assuming the maester is trusted. What better example than Pycelle, sugesting Aerys to open King's Landing to Tywin? Not to mention that they are the educators on the Castles, while in our world, that was indeed up to monks or priests (since in those times, only priests or monks would have the time and means to study, in fact, the first proper scientists were either monks or friars). Since I mention that, maesters are very similiar to monks, aren't they? But their devotion is study instead of the gods. There's the huge difference. It seems to me that on ASoIaF's political enviroment, they don't really give much attention to faith (well, there's the case of Baelor, isn't it). Faith seems to be the refuge of the commoners and maybe just because of that is taken into consideration (no one wants their farmers rioting, rebeling...)

Anthropologocal/Metaphysical Analysis of Westeros, that would be nice now, wouldn't it?

By all means, keep discusing about the 'white priests' and their daggers, I for one, have nothing to say about that, at least not just now :D

[Black Crow]

Indeed, BC, when thinking of Val's "bone" dagger, the "antler bone" is very likely. Mance and Dalla's tent seems to be adorned with them too...

...And on top of that, the tent is white, as if we needed another nod at Dalla's significance.

Indeed, I think its another pointer towards the popular theory that Jon will be revived by Mel being a bit iffy and that there will indeed be a conflict over him of some kind, with the Red lot having to contend not just with the Otherlanders but with Val and other representatives of the Old Gods - and I don't just mean the tree-huggers.