Heresy 53

[wolfmaid7]

Isn't there a theory that it has to do with putting his blood in leaches and burning ( or freezing) them? Blood magic

As a matter of fact it does, supposedly Cain was the father of a race of humans called the "cold ones" or race of leeches.Some theories peg him to be the first Vamp,except the blood lust got twisted to him drinking it,but initially he had a lust for killing. This just really reminded me of Roose.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, Mel seems to not even know of the existence of the White Walkers, Wights, and possibly even the Night's Watch until Davos brings the events of the North to Stannis' attention

So Edric Storm is now immortal? :eek:

Didn't you just provide us with that with your immediately preceding point about Dawn? I am no astrophysicist, but my rudimentary knowledge of subject tells me that, while they are in space, asteroids and the like tend to have chunks of ice imbeded in them--and when it crashed into the earth (thus becoming a meteor(ite? can never remember the difference)), the ice would melt due to the intense heat provided by the atmospheric friction--so anything from a meteor could be considered containing "fluid ice"

Yeppers--and, while Water is seen as the antithesis to Fire, the fact of the matter is that a bucket of Earth (usually sand) does just as well of a job at extinguishing a campfire.

And adds another level of potential future conflict with Rickon, seeing as Shaggydog is the one with Green Eyes (while Ghost is of course the one with Red Eyes)

I refer you to my above comment on this issue--while crashing to the earth, a meteor(ite?)'s ice will melt super fast; in essence, it will "burn up", thus giving the crashed meteor the description of being associated with "fluid" or "burning" ice.

Magically speaking i know of two stones that are used for banishing; Obsidian and Hematite coincidentally they both need hot and cold properties to get them in a solid form. Hematite while it looks black or silver on the outside looks red on the inside hence the green "Haima" for blood.Both are found near volcanic activity. Meteorites have been known to have some Hematite. So guess its possible for Mel to be screwed by such a stone.

[Snow Whyte]

I refer you to my above comment on this issue--while crashing to the earth, a meteor(ite?)'s ice will melt super fast; in essence, it will "burn up", thus giving the crashed meteor the description of being associated with "fluid" or "burning" ice.

Aha. Perfect, then. So, perhaps Sam will pop by Starfall to bring Dawn back to the wall, along with that broken horn he apparently still has. :)

Alternatively, maybe someone should knock Mel out and bury her in the earth beneath the roots of a weirwood?

[Lord Martin Sheol]

o.O why would you kill Mel? She's just trying to help! :'( Besides we all agree she's really hot... :drunk:

Interesting theory on hematite, except for the detail that they're both found on volcanic ground..., I'll try looking for more about hemanite. Much compeling that the ice meteorites (add ite/s once it's fallen, right?), since I don't have a clue on how you could wield bruned ice, even less, natural burned ice. I believe neither obsidian nor... whatever the other material is is literaly ice/cold or fire/heat made a rock.

Btw, even in the vastness of the deep space, there is matter, or light, and that's movement, if there's movent, there's not that theorical absolute zero. Well, let's say for like the.... 99.99999999... % of it there's no such thing as void. That can only happen in a black hole, but all aroud the black hole there's matter, and light, and movent, not to mention that black holes could not be really big, despite their immense gravity... Anyway..., theoretical physic... who gets that? Not me. GRRM? Doubt it.

Edit: CONFIRMED!!! Meteorite is the word for a fallen, landed piece of asteroid while a meteor is a small astral body who does not lad but is burned on the sky (shooting star)

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Forgive my jumping in... but the phrase 'in the earth' above reminded me of something I noticed when I recently cracked open Game Of Thrones for the first time in a long time...

When Robert arrives in Winterfell, and they descend into the crypts... (it's still summer above... Summer in the North, of course, but summer none the less)... we are told 'they could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.'

Just a throw away line introducing us to the harshness of the North, most likely... but it could be more meaningful.

It always amazes me how many seemingly trivial details jump out at you upon re-reads... especially after a lot of time on the forums and such.

I also was surprised to find the range of things the reader is presented with in the opening Bran/Catelyn/Eddard/Jon chapters... In these opening few 50 pages or so, we're introduced to the Andal invasion, the approximate date of their arrival (and their destroying the weirwoods), the Others, the Isle of Faces, Children of the Forest, Valyrian Steel, Mance Rayder, the Age of Heroes, and Brandon the Builder.

I also thought it curious that in Jon's opening chapter he justifies his going to the Wall at his age by citing King Daeron's conquering Dorne at age 14. benjen counters with "But Daeron died at 18". Foretelling ADWD? Would've been neat if Jon had been 18 at the time of his last ADWD chapter. Unfortunately I think he was only 16 or 17 at most. Could also just foreshadow Jon's not surviving the final two installments. Probably nothing.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Another thing about Mel and the fire lot I forgot to mention, most likely you've already discussed it: Why do the WWs seem to fear the sun so much, while Mel doesn't even feel the cold in the middle of the cold winds be it night or day? Isn't past the Wall supposed to be WWs's territory? Could it be that the Black Shadows are stronger than the White Shadows? Well, the BS don't have large hosts of undead, but...

[firepoet]

Forgive my jumping in... but the phrase 'in the earth' above reminded me of something I noticed when I recently cracked open Game Of Thrones for the first time in a long time...

When Robert arrives in Winterfell, and they descend into the crypts... (it's still summer above... Summer in the North, of course, but summer none the less)... we are told 'they could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.'

Just a throw away line introducing us to the harshness of the North, most likely... but it could be more meaningful.

It always amazes me how many seemingly trivial details jump out at you upon re-reads... especially after a lot of time on the forums and such.

I also was surprised to find the range of things the reader is presented with in the opening Bran/Catelyn/Eddard/Jon chapters... In these opening few 50 pages or so, we're introduced to the Andal invasion, the approximate date of their arrival (and their destroying the weirwoods), the Others, the Isle of Faces, Children of the Forest, Valyrian Steel, Mance Rayder, the Age of Heroes, and Brandon the Builder.

I also thought it curious that in Jon's opening chapter he justifies his going to the Wall at his age by citing King Daeron's conquering Dorne at age 14. benjen counters with "But Daeron died at 18". Foretelling ADWD? Would've been neat if Jon had been 18 at the time of his last ADWD chapter. Unfortunately I think he was only 16 or 17 at most. Could also just foreshadow Jon's not surviving the final two installments. Probably nothing.

Although when he wrote GOT, he was planning a 5 year skip, so Jon would have been 18 in ADWD.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Edit: CONFIRMED!!! Meteorite is the word for a fallen, landed piece of asteroid while a meteor is a small astral body who does not lad but is burned on the sky (shooting star)

Thanks for allowing me to be lazy and looking that up for me! :cheers:

[Toccs]

Thanks for allowing me to be lazy and looking that up for me! :cheers:

The King eats and the Hand waits for somebody else to take the shit.

[Gordias]

Another thing about Mel and the fire lot I forgot to mention, most likely you've already discussed it: Why do the WWs seem to fear the sun so much, while Mel doesn't even feel the cold in the middle of the cold winds be it night or day? Isn't past the Wall supposed to be WWs's territory? Could it be that the Black Shadows are stronger than the White Shadows? Well, the BS don't have large hosts of undead, but...

Well, what I got from it was the Others prefer to move under cover of darkness and glamour themselves away during daytime. Whether it's fear or preference, we can't be sure yet. I think, it might've been aFfC or aDwD I forget- but Sam at some point talks about how the Others mislike fire but aren't driven back by it like wights (though even they aren't so afraid of it up-close or in large numbers).

Mel is definitely very uncomfortable during the night-time, singing to her nightfires and praying to the dawn. It may very well be that the Others have similar practices that mirror them, or perhaps they simply operate on a different principle. I hope we get a deeper perspective from the Others in a coming book; I'd be so intrigued to see a female Other like in the legends we hear about the Night King, intercede with humans so we can get more of a idea of their psyche (though heretics here have done a great job of speculating and pointing to possible answers :D)

[Black Crow]

Some interesting ideas came up while I was giving it ZZZZs...

The reference to Dawn as a possible Red Shadow or dragon-slayer is certainly a possibility but if so its odd it wasn't used for that purpose when Aegon came knocking, perhaps nobody was worthy enough to wield it at the time.

That being said, I'd also very much doubt its the only specific. Supposedly both Dragonsteel and dragonglass work against the Otherlanders, so while Dawn might very well work if wielded by someone worthy of it, to say slay one of Dany's amazing dragons one sword isn't going to do much and most folks are going to have to use bone or weirwood in dealing with Mel and her like.

[Black Crow]

Well, what I got from it was the Others prefer to move under cover of darkness and glamour themselves away during daytime. Whether it's fear or preference, we can't be sure yet. I think, it might've been aFfC or aDwD I forget- but Sam at some point talks about how the Others mislike fire but aren't driven back by it like wights (though even they aren't so afraid of it up-close or in large numbers).

Sam said that they are "daunted" by fire, that is very wary of it. Wights, no longer possessing any fear are not and consequently get burned. The Otherlander Sam and Grenn encountered didn't run away screaming when Grenn poked his torch at him but rather contemptuously knocked it away, doubtless muttering "silly boy" under his icy breath.

Although Tormund complained that they were always around even if they couldn't be seen, the texts are otherwise consistent in having them come in darkness, mist, falling snow and so on. I think its a very straightforward matter of avoiding direct sunlight because they will start to melt as the ice dragon did when it fought in the sunlight to save Adara.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Some of the heart trees are weirwoods. I'm pretty sure that Robb is before a weirwood heart tree at Riverrun, and Arya before one at Harrenhal. And Brienne definitely sees a young weirwood at the Whispers, though as an abandoned site, that may no longer be part of any godswood.

I am not going to argue, but when reading this, my mind just went WTF? HH was built by Ironmen, who chopped down a holy forrest of WW trees, and used it to build it. Then they left a WW as a Heart Tree? Does this seem wrong? HH was built 300 years before, could a WW have grown that big in that time.

Its also worth reflecting that obsidian is black, while as we're constantly reminded weirwood and bone are white.

Nice point.

My thoughts on this subject often return to the sword Dawn. It is sky-forged, i.e. forged without the use of terrestrial fire, and is the right color (indeed, it's appearance evokes the "armor" of the WWs). And of course, Dawn is the light-bringer, in a literal sense. So, meteorite iron? Iron's definitely important, as we've discussed before regarding the swords in the crypts at Winterfell, and the general lore of iron with respect to fairies.

While I do thing Dawn is important, I just don't see it this way. Thats what I thought before found the web sites. It seems too easy an answer.

[Black Wolf Smith]

That being said, I'd also very much doubt its the only specific. Supposedly both Dragonsteel and dragonglass work against the Otherlanders, so while Dawn might very well work if wielded by someone worthy of it, to say slay one of Dany's amazing dragons one sword isn't going to do much and most folks are going to have to use bone or weirwood in dealing with Mel and her like.

IMO that is at very least the original purpose. It like many other meaning has been lost, but the idea that you have to be special, i.e. "the greatess Swords men of a Genration" has stuck, but not the why. It may well be that Dawn was Lightbringer, but it isn't no longer. That once AA used it, that it fulfulled that purpose, and it now just another sword.

[Joken79]

Beside able to kill the others dragon glass has some more magic characteristics.

The glass candles are made of it and sorcerers can communicate over far distances with them

Regarding weirwood as material there is also magic in it. A greenseer can see through the trees.

And the trees live forever if not burned or poisoned.

BC already mentioned the black and white as opposite color.

I remember also Bran Vras thoughts about Val and their connection to weirwoods.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html

Quoting Bran Vras:

"In the Seven Kingdoms, the item used to maintain a cloak closed is a privileged locus for the expression of heraldry."

Book:

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder

with a carved weirwood face

, white tunic with bone fastenings. [...] Val patted the long bone knife on her hip.

(Jon XI, ADwD)

[Black Crow]

Useful catch that which reinforces what we've been discussing about weirwood and/or bone being what's needed to deal with the seemingly invulnerable Mel and her like, and also I'd suggest a symbolic reason for killing the she-wolf with an antler-bone dagger rather than one of metal.

[Joken79]

Useful catch that which reinforces what we've been discussing about weirwood and/or bone being what's needed to deal with the seemingly invulnerable Mel and her like, and also I'd suggest a symbolic reason for killing the she-wolf with an antler-bone dagger rather than one of metal.

It might be that killing the she-wolf with a ritual knife, the antler-bone dagger, is a sacrifice to the old gods in purpose to get the "blessing" of the old gods for the pups.

We know that the direwolves can sense their sisters and brothers over distance and for me that seems not normal for any animal.

[Black Crow]

It might be that killing the she-wolf with a ritual knife, the antler-bone dagger, is a sacrifice to the old gods in purpose to get the "blessing" of the old gods for the pups.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking about.

[alienarea]

What puzzles me is that if Val belongs to the "White Lot" and is an opposite of Melisandre, then the "White Lot" is in league with Mance Rayder and the wildlings somehow but the wildlings are fleeing from the White Walkers and the Wights.

I wonder if Mance would have burned or dissolved into water?

[redriver]

What puzzles me is that if Val belongs to the "White Lot" and is an opposite of Melisandre, then the "White Lot" is in league with Mance Rayder and the wildlings somehow but the wildlings are fleeing from the White Walkers and the Wights.

I wonder if Mance would have burned or dissolved into water?

What?